Nintendo Switch: Thread 2: The Drift

[Dewt]

I couldn't agree more. It's a mirror to the soul.

If you are a cardboard man with a cardboard heart and cardboard imagination, it will show you only cardboard.

It always ends up feeling very gamey in a way that would make it inferior to projecting imagination on compared to other games. It's a constant sequence of things like "you've gone outside of the programmed range of the goblin things, now they are going to switch to their very obvious retreat routine", which makes it far less fun for me than almost any other similar game. Unless it's a game with extremely tight mechanics (shooter, platformer, puzzle game) I don't want to be able to accurately guess what's going to happen next.

Immersion, projection and imagination in games is a huge thing for me. Even in Dune II on the Amiga I used to pretend I was sitting at a remote command terminal and the graphics on screen were a representation of a real battle. But (and perhaps it's because I've been a game developer) BOTW is way too simplistic. Too obvious, too petroly. Glad it works for you, but your love for the game doesn't represent anything inherently superior in your character, I'm afraid.

[Timothy]

I agree that BOTW's world was absolutely beautiful. And the atmosphere in the world was indeed phenomenal. The first few hours I absolutely loved it. But after a while the lack of interesting quests, characters, story and enemies changed me from being impressed to being bored. It's probably why I'm so disappointed in the game. They could have made one of the all time greats if the actual gameplay, shrines and quests had been more interesting. I wanted to be in that world but there was no reason to. It's exactly that lack of plot and urgency (that and the ridiculous weapon breaking mechanism) that turned me on the game.

Couldn't agree more with Dewt.

Looking forward to BOTW 2 though. Interested to see what that game is going to be like.

[Emotional Support Peacock]

How can Kelvin be so wrong about Super Mario Kart but so right about BoTW?

[Abnormal Palm]

Dewt

Your example of enemy pathing is a bit facile as criticism of its interlayered mechanical systems and overlapping environmental variables. Even a couple of months ago, people were still finding new stuff you could do within that physics engine. And - guess what - as Kelvin said, none of that stuff is even what's so great about it. That's not what demonstrates the true quality of the game.

If I could find an image from the game of Link pointing to the moon, that's what I would post here. That would be the best way to conclude this discussion. Unfortunately, I couldn't find one so I'll just say 'balsa boys'.

[Dewt]

Your example of enemy pathing is a bit facile as criticism of its interlayered mechanical systems and overlapping environmental variables. Even a couple of months ago, people were still finding new stuff you could do within that physics engine. And - guess what - as Kelvin said, none of that stuff is even what's so great about it. That's not what demonstrates the true quality of the game.

Well, you're not claiming that the game is a constant stream of cool new discoveries so that would be too obviously untrue. So what you're getting at is that the physics engine is fun to play around with and you enjoy the combinations that results from dicking around in what is essentially a sandbox. In that case I think you just haven't seen enough games with physics engines that the player can directly engage with then. In fact, try a game development tool that integrates with a rigid-body physics engine - you'll be able to really explore that kind of thing to the limits of your imagination and maybe create a game idea out of it.

And then taking that idea outside of physics, I would say Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, The Binding of Isaac and even Skyrim all have emergent gameplay that takes far longer to reach the limits and become repetitive than BOTW.

Beneath its theming and lore, BOTW isn't all that deep. It does a good job of conveying a sense of wilderness. There's a great sense of stumbling across set pieces out of the blue, and it feels like a constant stream of activities. It's just that the set pieces aren't that good.

[Timothy]

Zelda BOTW is going to be in the next eshop sale additions. Thursday 4PM.

Its 30 percent off now.

[peanutbutter]

What's the actual issue with the weapon breaking stuff? It feels to me like it's far more about setting a fluid mindset towards the the game rather than steamrolling through with your most powerful weapon wouldn't be able to have. The antithesis aggressive grind-driven fuckery.

I never liked the dungeons in Zelda tbh, I never played the games in a time period where I hadn't LOADS of distractions and just the whole idea of a "dungeon" is offputting to me, this extended ordeal that you're stuck in for an extended period. The Shrine structure way more suited what I wanted in a game and the process of finding the shrines was a _huge_ part of what I loved about the game.
BOTW honestly seems like a game that was designed way more with me, someone who isn't a Zelda fan at all, in mind than hardcore fans of the series. Although I feel like if I was a huge fan of any of the pre-Wind Waker games that I'd've long moved towards smaller or more niche games that drill into the aspects of what I liked about those (and there's surely nothing too technically restrictive about making a game as good as LttP for indie devs at this stage?) than expecting it to come from a flagship series that was long overdue an overhaul.

[Abnormal Palm]

Dewt

As a broad response, you're still trying to pin down its 'value' to how mechanically shallow you think it is - by comparing it to games that have completely different aims and strengths. And as a broad response, I've said several times that my praise for the game is not based on the premise that 'more complicated is better, therefore it's the best'. The unique quality and strength of BotW is the combination of all of its elements in balance and a 'less is more' philosophy. It's a discursive dead end to say that it has an ineffable quality, if you get it you get it, but it's equally redundant to try to reduce and grade its disparate parts when the whole is the entire point.

To entertain the reductive train of thought:

The games you mentioned are also some of the best ever. Certainly, Skyrim was a big influence on BotW in terms of its pacing in the open world. I've played 300 hours of Isaac on the Switch. I love the surprises it offers. The others I can admire, even though I'll never play games on a PC. However, not one of them does ALL of the things that BotW excels at, and more, and in an understated way. That's what's special about it.

It's also daft to invoke game dev credentials and encourage me to try such and such engine to find out for myself because I don't need to. If there were a better game out there which improved upon all of its qualities, I'd have played it and happily loved it. Where are these overlooked holistic masterpieces? Hopefully, they're being cooked up in little studios around the world but they don't exist yet, not even MGSV, another game which I adore. The fact is that there are very very very few developers who could hope to succeed on as many levels as Nintendo do with this because they don't have anything like the expertise and artistry in so many areas. It's a game with obvious influences, none of which can match it in every area.

You're listening to Kind of Blue and saying, well, Charlie Parker could play a lot faster. It's about balance. 

[popcorn]

Do you know what I've heard? I've heard that, in fact, BotW is an opposites mirror, in that people who are bad and thick see fun and goodness reflected back at them.

[Abnormal Palm]

Hey Dewt. Apologies if I've been at all harsh. Just gonna go for a walk and chill for a bit. Pretty full on night and feeling absolutely knackered.

[Dewt]

Dewt

As a broad response, you're still trying to pin down its 'value' to how mechanically shallow you think it is - by comparing it to games that have completely different aims and strengths. And as a broad response, I've said several times that my praise for the game is not based on the premise that 'more complicated is better, therefore it's the best'. The unique quality and strength of BotW is the combination of all of its elements in balance and a 'less is more' philosophy. It's a discursive dead end to say that it has an ineffable quality, if you get it you get it, but it's equally redundant to try to reduce and grade its disparate parts when the whole is the entire point.

To entertain the reductive train of thought:

The games you mentioned are also some of the best ever. Certainly, Skyrim was a big influence on BotW in terms of its pacing in the open world. I've played 300 hours of Isaac on the Switch. I love the surprises it offers. The others I can admire, even though I'll never play games on a PC. However, not one of them does ALL of the things that BotW excels at, and more, and in an understated way. That's what's special about it.

It's also daft to invoke game dev credentials and encourage me to try such and such engine to find out for myself because I don't need to. If there were a better game out there which improved upon all of its qualities, I'd have played it and happily loved it. Where are these overlooked holistic masterpieces? Hopefully, they're being cooked up in little studios around the world but they don't exist yet, not even MGSV, another game which I adore. The fact is that there are very very very few developers who could hope to succeed on as many levels as Nintendo do with this because they don't have anything like the expertise and artistry in so many areas. It's a game with obvious influences, none of which can match it in every area.

You're listening to Kind of Blue and saying, well, Charlie Parker could play a lot faster. It's about balance.

Okay, but what this boils down to is that this game happens to appeal to you, like the flavour of apple appeals to some people and not others. It is not objectively better than other games at what it does, even if that particular thing is just being a cohesive whole. You've engineered it into this position of being exceptional by adding qualifiers like "understated" that are particular to this specific game, just as you could for any game. It doesn't reconcile the balance sheet of universal truth the way you're been claiming. It doesn't mean that people can't grasp something that you understand. They just think that as a whole, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

It's too fuzzy of a thing to be absolute about. All of the things you state that are great about the game are subjective. It's not like Kerbal Space Program where you can definitively say it's good at letting the player put together spacecraft that are launched into physically-accurate flights. You're saying "this is a sub-genre of jazz and if that isn't aesthetically pleasing to you then you're objectively wrong".

It is valid to say that it is all of the things that it is to you. That's as far as you can take it. The game is certainly not any measure of any character attributes of its players.

[Kelvin]

Bosto might be the greatest wind up merchant of all time. I've never known anyone to get under so many people's skin with such an obviously mischievous persona.

x

[madhair60]

the "if you don't like x you have no soul" argument is so laughably stupid that it can safely be ignored entirely. BOTW is bad because the people who like it talk like that. The end. I'm going back to Polyroll and Magicat.

[Abnormal Palm]

Dewt

I had assumed that the comment about the quality of the player would have been taken as a joke - certainly by you. Maybe I oversold it. If it winds up people who get wound up by this kind of thing, bonus. I hadn't intended for that to be you, though. Friendly fire :(

As for the rest, I'd say it's a discursive dead end to invoke subjectivity, and unnecessary with me. I'm not saying that this Zen balance is why it's objectively the best game ever, but it's this quality which makes me ponder whether it's the best game ever - for how little I value that meaningless accolade. Significantly, it's not even my favourite game but I might still say that it's the best game I've played, taking everything into account.

To go a little deeper than the 'all opinions are equal' critical mulch, it is perfectly possible and true to say that one thing is better than another in its holistic composition, and that deconstructing its elements is to destroy the whole. If you replace Cannonball Adderley with Charlie Parker, it's no longer Kind of Blue. To briefly return to your point about dev tools and engines, you could give me the greatest ingredients and equipment available and a recipe to follow, and my food still wouldn't be served in El Bulli. And what's more, my wife might even prefer my food to El Bulli, but she would still be wrong about which is better.

Now, your conclusion sounds like you've eaten at El Bulli and you think it's overrated and, actually, The Fat Duck is better. Mate, I completely accept that...because all our preferences do, ultimately, is to tell something of our individual quality.

[Mango Chimes]

Dewt

Nintendo need to patch out the framerate nonsense in Link's Awakening.

[madhair60]

Nintendo need to patch out the framerate nonsense in Link's Awakening.

correct

[madhair60]

nah i do like BOTW really. it's good fun.

Animal Crossing too. I went from "fucking fuck this" to "yaaaas, got some tulips"

[Abnormal Palm]

Yeah great console, but yeah LA framerate put me off that game several times. I'll probably go back now we're locked in our houses with no excuses needed to stay in and burn time on leisure.

I went back to Mazza Gazza this week on the Wii and I can't wait for the Switch release. Sunshine, as well. Also went back to 64 and for the first time ever, I did feel like it was a bit of a struggle. To be honest, although I felt like I played it loads back in the day, we never had an N64 so I've not really sank weeks into it ever, just a few long afternoons and stuff. I seem to remember we borrowed one from my auntie for a few days but that was the most I played it ever. I can barely remember much besides the music and the first handful of levels. I wonder whether it's going to be a proper redo.

[Jerzy Bondov]

Genuinely hope the Switch re-release of Mario 64 is based on the DS version. Not even joking. A brilliant game totally scuppered by not having an analogue stick. I'd love to play it properly. Mario 64 but with more stuff - including playable Wario. Amazing.

[Bazooka]

Once you get used to DS 64 it's not that bad, I've not played it since release but surprised how well it worked on the DS.

[Consignia]

Genuinely hope the Switch re-release of Mario 64 is based on the DS version. Not even joking. A brilliant game totally scuppered by not having an analogue stick. I'd love to play it properly. Mario 64 but with more stuff - including playable Wario. Amazing.

It would be even better if it had both versions. Whilst there aren't a whole lot of differences, they are different experiences and worth preserving both them. I prefer the DS version too, but having both would be ace and would fit the "All Stars" compilation vibe they are going for.

[madhair60]

I want 3D World on Switch the most, it'd be a perfect fit. Galaxy fucking kicks arse, mind. I'm not sure I'm as keen on revisiting it. I never did beat Galaxy 2, though.

Never liked Mario 64. Respect it, from afar. Don't enjoy playing it.

[Kelvin]

Genuinely hope the Switch re-release of Mario 64 is based on the DS version. Not even joking. A brilliant game totally scuppered by not having an analogue stick. I'd love to play it properly. Mario 64 but with more stuff - including playable Wario. Amazing.

I feel the opposite. Add no content to the original game, just improve the camera, certain controls, and possibly the graphics, if you can keep the overall simplicity. The core game of 64 is absolutely perfect, with barely any fat. Galaxy and Odyssey might both have better stand out moments, maybe even 60% of each game is better than 64. But Galaxy 1, 2 and Odyssey are all dragged down as an overall package by the late game filler - comets, green stars, moons just sat on a rock, lots and lot and lots of repeats. They're all brilliant in their own way, but 64 is just a greater, more cohesive whole - or would be if the technical issues were ironed out with a re-release. I don't want them adding tons of superfluous shit like extra stars and levels just to add 20 hours to the game time.     

[Kelvin]

Also Sunshine can squirt itself into a grave. The only thing that game does better than the rest is Mario's moveset.

[imitationleather]

I loved Galaxy so much at the time.

I'm guessing it will be even better now I'm not pissed and depressed 24/7.

[Ferris]

Galaxy is a genuinely terrific game, same for 2. That and MarioKart Wii were my absolute jam for a few years of my life while I was pissed up and depressed.

[Kelvin]

What if it turns out the controls of Galaxy were perfectly honed so that they would feel just right for a drunk, depressed person. In reality, Mario was always walking 12 degrees off course   :(

[Dewt]

Bosto might be the greatest wind up merchant of all time. I've never known anyone to get under so many people's skin with such an obviously mischievous persona.

x

Can you please take this attitude somewhere else so people can write about games without this "y u mad bro?" shit? I was enjoying talking about BOTW with Bosto

[colacentral]

BotW is probably my favourite game of all time. Certainly the game I've loved most as an adult. Barely a day goes by when I don't think about it.

The weapon breaking stuff is nonsense. There's an endless supply of weapons. Other than in the first hour of the game, I don't think I ever came remotely close to not having a weapon. Other than being unrealistic (*shrugs*), it's perfectly balanced. I also don't agree it has bad sidequests. It just handles them differently than traditional side quests. Shrine quests are more like classic Zelda riddles, rather than big, multi-step quests driven by smaller stories.

One thing I don't think gets talked about enough in that game - and probably the aspect that elevates it from being an amazing game into one of the all time greats - is just the atmosphere of it all. When you strip back the gameplay, the mechanics, the exploration, the experimentation, the good and the bad, at it's heart it's just got a "feel" unlike almost any other AAA game. Just the wind in the trees, with no music playing, or a few piano chords as you look out at the sunset from a mountain peak. There's no ticking clock, no dry plot, the characters feel like old friends each time you see them. When I think about the game, I don't think about the cool set-pieces or the grand scenery, but rather just the stillness and tranquillity of it all.

I could write a list of a thousand things I'd change about it, but I still think it's the greatest and most affecting experience I've ever had playing a game.         

I agree with this and it seems that the dividing line on BotW opinions is whether or not you approach it as a game to be completed. To me it was almost a hiking sim, a place to wander around pissing about and discovering things. For me, finding the shrines was the game and the puzzles within were the reward. I think people who approach the game with the opposite mind set, of finding shrines as busy work and the game itself being a series of levels (as a traditional zelda), you're going to get less out of it.

I played it with the sensor turned off, no fast travel, and took it nice and slow. It took me probably 40 - 50 hours before I bothered going to the castle.

It makes sense that BotW haters would compare it unfavourabley to MSG V as to me they require opposite mind sets. MSG really is a traditional series of levels awkwardly mapped onto an open world set up, something that favours always moving forward and getting onto the next situation, the next barmy cut scene, and so on. The emphasis is on beating its challenges, and living in its world is secondary; vice versa for BotW.

I'm not trying to say anyone is playing it wrong, I just think it caters to a different set of values than maybe is usually expected from an adventure game.

[Dewt]

That's precisely the thing though. I love aimless walking around, and initially BOTW blew me away with how well it did this. It has a great map. But it pulls the curtain back too often. The smatterings of enemies are just wrong enough that it started feeling gamey[nb]Thinking about it, Fallout IV's enemy logic in BOTW would have been great[/nb], the inventory management started feeling gamey...

I love games that invoke your imagination as successfully as reading a book does. This was like reading a potentially great book that kept making me craft things to see the next chapter.