Nintendo Switch: Thread 2: The Drift

[Kelvin]

Beyond everything else, their new first party games have been B tier at very best since Odyssey. They're no longer a mark of quality. They're a mark of 'will this do?'

I think this is nonsense, tbh. Since Odyssey there have been loads of really high quality Nintendo games; off the top of my head, Smash Bros, Fire Emblem, Astral Chain, Mario Maker 2, Link's Awakening Remake, Luigi Mansion 3, Bowser's Fury, and Animal Crossing. All of which are at least really good, and in most cases, series' high points.

They might not be for you, of course, but they aren't "this'll do" games. And although there are titles that fit that description - the Mario Sports game's, for example - those games have been half-arsing it for probably a decade now, and haven't suddenly dropped off a cliff in the last 2-3 years. If anything the recent entries are considered an uptick of the previous few entries.   

It's undoubtedly true that last year and the first half of this year were pretty empty, I presume down to Covid. And there's no question that the Switch is starting to feel like very dated tech, which is increasingly frustrating. But I would strongly dispute that the core Nintendo titles have declined in quality recently. They just don't put out a 3D Mario and / or Zelda every year.

[ImmaculateClump]

my issue with new Kirby is the gameplay change rather than the aesthetic. I'm sure in the end I will still enjoy the game plenty, I just wish it was more of the same because I adored that series.

It'll still be a puzzle platformer though, won't it?
I know what you mean though, it just becomes a baggy sandpit of fuckery when you go 3d.
Good 3D platformers you can count on one hand.

I never did get into a kirby game, they totally passed me by as a kid and I think the first one I played was that rainbow thing on the ds which was a fucking nightmare with you covering up half the screen with the stylus and your own fat hand. That was when nintendo were still riding the "novelty control gimmicks" lobotomised donkey.

Me and my nephew loved playing that fuzzy felt kirby game on the wii. That was fab! Do you consider that a proper kirby game? Kirby's Epic Yarn? It was a bit "aimed at 3 and under", but no less fun for it.
Kirby pinball on the gameboy was fabulous. I think I tried a couple of the kirby games in emulators but couldn't really see the appeal. Probably didn't give them a fair crack.

I think this is nonsense, tbh.

Nintendo at their best are fucking amazing.
If they'd been half, or even quarter as good as nintendo at their best this gen, I would have nothing to complain about.

This gen, something happened. Maybe they started making games more by committee and less with a directors vision? I don't know, but their games have been middling dogshit for a long time now.
They need to do something to shake up their current process, but they won't because they're printing money.

Cat mario and mario kart 8 on the wii-u were fab. what happened?

[madhair60]

good old reliable 2D Kirby was like a comforter, it was this thing that was always going to deliver, for me. Easy main games, nails-hard mastery challenges post-game. But now they've changed it and I just don't like 3D games as much as 2D ones.

[Chedney Honks]

I think this is nonsense, tbh. Since Odyssey there have been loads of really high quality Nintendo games; off the top of my head, Smash Bros, Fire Emblem, Astral Chain, Mario Maker 2, Link's Awakening Remake, Luigi Mansion 3, Bowser's Fury, and Animal Crossing. All of which are at least really good, and in most cases, series' high points.

They might not be for you, of course, but they aren't "this'll do" games.

I really enjoyed Fire Emblem Awakening, that's basically the one post-2017 game I'd put near BOTW, Splatoon 2,ARMS and Odyssey.

The rest of your list did nothing for me, and they released a lot less ambitious or accomplished shit in amongst them.

Smash is Smash. Animal Crossing is Animal Crossing. Link's Awakening runs very poorly, and is a port. Luigi's Mansion is another LM game, nothing more. Mario Maker 2 is less ambitious and interesting than the original MM game. Astral Chain is the least interesting and satisfying Platinum game I've played. It's great in parts but P* actually managed to make a boring game. Despite that, I'll give you it. Bowser's Fury is a proof of concept which doesn't run well on the only system it's designed for and bored me before I'd finished it. What is it? Five hours long? These are the highlights of the last few years.

[ImmaculateClump]

I just don't like 3D games as much as 2D ones.

Amen, brother.
Some genres just straight up barely work in 3D, but they keep persevering with it because your average gamer thinks 2d is a relic that should be left in the past.

[Povidone]

I got the nintendo subscription for the year that lets me play SNES and NES games and I wont be renewing as I never actually got round to using it for more than about 10 minutes for the brief nostalgia blast. Who in the actual fuck has got time to play new games as well as shit they already rinsed when they were 10? Get a job you fucking hippies.

Also someone a few pages back said they were looking forward to using the N64 controller again? Seriously? Did you get kicked in the head by a donkey?

[Ferris]

I had absolutely brilliant fun with my Switch, especially in the first two years, but Nintendo as a company have squandered so much goodwill since then. I'm tired of their conservatism, baffling decisions and opacity. This was probably their best Direct in a long time but I have so little interest in them as a company at this point. Beyond everything else, their new first party games have been B tier at very best since Odyssey. They're no longer a mark of quality. They're a mark of 'will this do?'

I will still buy their big Mario and Zelda games and I expect their top tier teams will produce moments of genius, but I've no interest in most of what they put out, nor the way they operate. The recent 'OLED Switch' announcement epitomises the very worst of contemporary Nintendo. Maximum milking with the least ambition or investment. Technically, the Switch struggles to even run its own first party games these days and it's pretty much two generations behind. I wouldn't care if the games were all 2017 tier but nothing has come close since.

Can't believe they finally made a decent Kirby game, though.

Chedney old mate this is absolutely bang on.

Not played Switch in literal years at this point, and Nintendo is operating in such a baffling and uninteresting way I've stopped paying attention. I've bought and proselytized for every Nintendo console since the N64 (and I mean every console, including a fairly worthless Wii U which I thought was largely shit but thought maybe I was missing something so no problem I guess).

My PS4 is still getting a run out several times a week. I've never bothered to hook my Switch up to the telly in the new gaff (lived here nearly a year) and it was in storage for 6 months before then. Haven't even thought about it as a viable system until reading this thread title out of the blue. What a completely mad way to run a video game company (especially one using a proprietary console to make money).

What is point Switch.

[Chedney Honks]

I should balance my criticism of the new first party software by saying that I have really enjoyed a lot of the ports, and not just the Nintendo ports. It's also been a great system for shmups and retro games and it did help change my tastes somewhat towards the arcade. I also played 300 hours of Isaac in about two months or something. The Wii U stuff was great, for the most part. I did quite a bit of writing about the Switch for various sites last year and enjoyed that until I got bored. I also bought several hundred games for it. I'm by no means rewriting how much I enjoyed and supported it, but Nintendo themselves don't interest or excite me like they did a few years ago.

They don't need to, of course. It's become astronomically successful and it makes sense for them to milk Smash and AC with the slowest drip feed to make sure that new people are buying new Switches at the same insane rate. They could have made more MK8 DLC but they don't need to. It sells like a mother fucker, anyway. I think Nintendo recently had the entire Top 30 in the charts in Japan, which was unprecedented or something. They don't need my custom at all. They've had many lifetimes worth from me already. They've built the library and now it's a case of squeezing every last drop before the market says they need to do anything more.

[thelittlemango]

I was late to the party and bought mine in lockdown 1 and am still in love with it.

I've rinsed a lot of best 1st party games but I mainly love the switch as an amazing handheld device, and so slightly choppier framerates or slightly worse graphics aren't much of an issue to me when I can spend a four hour train journey playing Witcher 3 or Tony Hawk Remaster, it's bliss. Just using it as a handheld device (I've never played it on my tv) and going through the back catalogue of ports and indie games and the occasional new release has meant that I've got a constant queue of things that I want to play (I'm very excited to play Skyrim on the go) but I can see how if it was viewed as a home console it might seem quite defunct.

[AzureSky]

I've bought all Nintendo's consoles since the N64, bar the Wii U, and I've never owned a PlayStation or Xbox. I only buy them to play Mario and Zelda games really, that's it. So nothing else bothers me or gets my attention... Although I did love Resident Evil 4 and the Monkey Ball games also.

I recently spent around £150 just to play Majora's Mask on the N64, also buying an old TV, so that's money well spent isn't it...

[colacentral]

Not an excuse, but from their point of view, and to the vast majority of people, the Wii U ports are "new" first party games. And then also, in fairness, Metroid Prime 4 was pushed back before COVID even hit. Coming up is a new 2d Metroid, Metroid Prime 4, and BotW 2. They surely, surely, must have a new Mario Kart in the pipeline by now too.

[Kelvin]

I think this discussion illustrates a problem that's fairly common with Nintendo consoles, namely that a lot of people buy them for "Nintendo games", when really they only like 3D Zelda, 3D Mario and Mario Kart. And yet those series make up a relatively small portion of the games Nintendo put out each generation. If you're not someone who enjoys any of their smaller budget, lower profile, but (imo) still high quality series like Pikmin, Luigi's Mansion, WarioWare, Fire Emblem, Mario Party, Donkey Kong, 2D Metroid, or even 2D Mario and Zelda, it's inevitable that you won't be satisfied during the huge gaps between their three or four generational mega-titles.

I just don't buy into this revisionism that Nintendo have gone off the boil recently, when most of the Switch entries in their respective series are widely considered series high points, and consoles like the Wii and Wii U both had much, much longer gaps between Nintendo games, as well as far more entries that were generally considered subpar. Yes, they've only put out three to four "AAA" titles since the Switch launched, but they only have four or five "AAA" series in the first place.

My advice is to realise that series like Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion are really fucking good.

[colacentral]

Pokemon hasn't been mentioned either. They dropped the ball by it being a particularly shat and unambitious one, but it was a major release from their perspective.

[jobotic]

I bought a Switch for Zelda really (as I did the last console I had, a Gamecube). Trouble is other Nintendo games cost the same as the big budget ones. Used to like Pikmin and would get it again but fifty quid?

[peanutbutter]

It's a fairly standard nintendo console, no? A few big hitters (fewer than you felt at the time when you look back), a bunch of quite good games between them, some kinda neat kinda shite gimmicks (Ring Fit, MK Live) that seem to do quite well and then a bit of a crap shoot as far as third party options go.

It's really in Nintendo's interest to be holding back some stuff for whatever the Switch's successor is, can definitely complain about it but it'd just be concerning if they were blasting out bigger releases right now. Don't think they could get away with pushing BotW2 to it but at this stage I'd be expecting MP4 to not come out on the Switch (and honestly given the Switch's performance issues that might be for the better...)



I dont own one but loads of my friends do, it still seems to get a fuckton of mileage as a social experience. Just last week I had a really fun time playing Super Tennis for a few hours, I could easily set that up to play with people via other means but it's a very different thing having it all in a self contained unit.

I bought a Switch for Zelda really (as I did the last console I had, a Gamecube). Trouble is other Nintendo games cost the same as the big budget ones. Used to like Pikmin and would get it again but fifty quid?

Buy used, Nintendo's obsessive protection over the value of their old games tends to extend into the presale market which means you'll probably be able to resell for not far off the price you paid even a couple of years on

[Ferris]

I think the weak defence proves the point really. "Yes they've only put out 3 AAA games for the entire lifetime of the console and yes the latest Pokémon was shit but err... some smaller first party stuff and some indie titles are good"?

As a sales pitch (to pay for a proprietary console) it's not grabbing me.

There are very few indie games I can't get on steam, iOS or PS4, the battery life doesn't justify the handheld mode (it's about 3 hours so by the time you've got through security and at the gate that's yer lot) and even some of the "big hitters" haven't landed for me - Mario and Zelda were good, but only comparable to what's on other platforms and there's a lot more stuff out there for those.

Feels like it's coasting on being a Zelda: BotW machine and yeah I'm just not feelin' it. Case in point: forgot I posted in here and went back to ignoring the thread until I took a second look.

[Chedney Honks]

Kelvin, you make some very good points, will reply when I'm not fucked.

[ImmaculateClump]

Yeah, I think you made some fair points there, Kelvin.

I have to admit I do buy nintendo consoles almost purely for nintendo games myself so each console lives and dies by my subjective opinion of that gen's big games.
I've tried all their lesser IPs and didn't care for them enough to return for more of the same, and zelda went to shit a long time ago for me (botw was a huge leap in the wrong direction) so it's basically the good mario games and mario kart for me at this point. I do like the warioware games as well.

I can only speak for myself, but it's not revisionism on my part. I've had the console since launch and hated the new zelda and mario and have been disappointed that they're (like you say, totally understandably) spending their time and resources porting across old games that the fair-weather fans didn't buy, or even older games that they expect us all to buy again.

I think if I didn't play games on other platforms, there'd be lots on there that'd be rocking my world. As someone on another forum said recently, all the roguelites from ten years ago are getting a new lease of life on there.
Spelunky just came out recently, I understand. 30 quid for a double pack with the second game, or 60 quid if you just want the first one :D

So yeah, probably being a bit harsh, but I can only really speak from my own perspective, it's been a disappointment for me personally.

One thing I will say for the switch is that it's brought the shmup genre to a much wider audience.
There have been loads of new converts in the little groovy shmup corners of the net I frequent.
Loads of great games getting ported on there. Neko Navy, Black Bird, Star Hunter DX, Barrage Fantasia, Mushihimesama, yadda, yadda.
I've seen loads of switch folk saying that it got them to step outside their comfort zone in general and try things they wouldn't normally, and that's truly a great thing.

I don't know if the honeymoon period is over now and it's become a bit saturated, but there were a lot of starving indie devs finally, deservedly making bank when the eshop was a bit barren and people were eager to get games on their devices.

I'm cunted as well, but that's when I tend to make more sense so I'll post now :D

[colacentral]

I think the weak defence proves the point really. "Yes they've only put out 3 AAA games for the entire lifetime of the console and yes the latest Pokémon was shit but err... some smaller first party stuff and some indie titles are good"?

As a sales pitch (to pay for a proprietary console) it's not grabbing me.

There are very few indie games I can't get on steam, iOS or PS4, the battery life doesn't justify the handheld mode (it's about 3 hours so by the time you've got through security and at the gate that's yer lot) and even some of the "big hitters" haven't landed for me - Mario and Zelda were good, but only comparable to what's on other platforms and there's a lot more stuff out there for those.

Feels like it's coasting on being a Zelda: BotW machine and yeah I'm just not feelin' it. Case in point: forgot I posted in here and went back to ignoring the thread until I took a second look.

Even with the battery life "only" being three hours, the option is there to take it handheld, unlike the other systems, so I don't know why you would have other systems as a preference as long as the power of the machine isn't negatively affecting the game.

My partner has her own switch, so we have two docks in the house, one upstairs and one down stairs, so in addition to taking it handheld, I can also easily play it on the TV in bed or in the living room. Not everyone is going to be able to do this, but it's a much bigger deal to me than the handheld aspect.

That being said, the library is huge if you include ports and remasters. Just as an example, i can get all the Doom games and all the PS1 and PS2 Final Fantasy games elsewhere, but having them all in the one place on the Switch is clearly the most convenient way to own them.

[MojoJojo]

I think the indie side is where its at. I don't like to game on my pc as I need to separate my work leisure time, and the switch is good for playing indies while you have some crap on the TV.

[ImmaculateClump]

It's not great as a handheld though. Glossy, reflective screen. Terrible controls. Bad ergonomics.
The screen is way too small for the games they have on there for the most part. Battery life not great. It's a none starter as far as I'm concerned, though I don't like handheld gaming at the best of times so I'm probably being harsh, again.

Yeah, there are a lot of good indie games getting ported. If you're not a pc gamer, and using it as a handheld in the living room when others are watching the telly, I can see there'd be lots to keep you using it.

I just like playing on my pc best. All the indie games are there. Nice, big screen. If something goes wrong I can fix it. I can use whatever controller I like. I can force off vsync and crank up the refresh rate and have the lowest input lag possible. It's way less transient than consoles, you buy a game and it's yours to keep, you don't have to buy a whole load of new hardware and rebuy all your games every few years.

I've got consoles but I only tend to buy games for them when I absolutely have to.
I've got a drawer full of physical shmups for the 360 collecting dust. After that, I just tried to stay on pc as much as I could or I'll just buy digital and write it off as a loss when the generation ends.

[MojoJojo]

So you don't like consoles, and you particularly don't like handholds? Yeah, switch might not be for you.

[ImmaculateClump]

Haha, I just like games, pc is my platform of choice for a long list of boring reasons, but if I can't get a game there, I'm happy to play on whatever.
Switch is a lot of peoples platform of choice. There's no right or wrong.
There are a lot of people who use the switch as a home console and it never leaves the dock. The option to use it as a handheld device is there. I tried it and didn't like it.

I was really excited for the switch because it seemed like nintendo had finally gotten out of that phase of novelty control gimmicks and were gonna start making proper oldschool games with proper controls again. Unfortunately it coincided with them forgetting how to make decent games :(

[Beagle 2]

Just wondering, why are indie games so much more expensive on Switch? Do Nintendo take more of a cut, is it really expensive to port or licence them? Less competition than Steam? There's so much stuff on there I'd be happy to pay a few quid for but when it's £15 for some two hour thing or a mobile port I'm obviously not going to.

[peanutbutter]

Just wondering, why are indie games so much more expensive on Switch? Do Nintendo take more of a cut, is it really expensive to port or licence them? Less competition than Steam? There's so much stuff on there I'd be happy to pay a few quid for but when it's £15 for some two hour thing or a mobile port I'm obviously not going to.

Combo of Nintendo taking a cut and the market not being as cutthroat as on steam? Like, I doubt developers are that happy with how little they've to charge on steam to get past people's massive backlogs of games.

[Pink Gregory]

Can't deny that it works, I'm far more likely to pick up and play something for full price that I like the look of on Switch (mainly because I don't have my PC permanently set up) than being enticed by huge and frequent discounts.

Choice paralysis I guess.

[MojoJojo]

I think for most indie developers Steam is a loss leader. Developing on PC is cheap, and once you have a completed game with some good reviews and some customer interest you can raise the money for a switch/mobile port.

[Kelvin]

I don't know if it's still the case, but for the first few years, indie developers did incredibly well on Switch. I guess they don't see a reason to drop their prices too much if they have reason to believe they'll do well regardless.

[Huxleys Babkins]

I know a lot of indie devs price their games high so they can do regular discounts to appear on the "On Sale" page on the eShop, as discoverability is quite bad otherwise. That said, I'm not sure how good a tactic that is any more as there can be over a thousand games on sale at any one time as everyone tries to game the system.

[ImmaculateClump]

While the pc is an open platform and anyone can just sell a game on their own website or throw the game up on itch.io or pay the 100 quid or whatever it is to get on steam, there are a lot more hoops to jump through on console.

You have to pay fees to become certified to release games on the switch and the dev kits are extortionate.
There was one shmup youtuber that was looking into buying a dev kit himself and seeing if it'd be legal to lend it out to various indie devs in order to get their games on the switch, but nothing ever came of it, so I'm assuming nintendo weren't happy with the idea.

Most indie devs will sell the publishing rights and let another company port their game over.
The switch tax you see is usually because it's not just the guy who made the game, there'll be a lot of people with their hands out waiting for their cut.

It's always nice to see when the prices are the same, the devs figuring, we'll shift more units, it'll all work out. Like Black Bird is the same price on the switch, but then onion games did publish it themselves, so that's probably why.