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Reservoir Dogs

Started by madhair60, September 09, 2019, 10:45:15 AM

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Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Old Nehamkin on September 10, 2019, 08:23:39 AM
Which scenes in Reservoir Dogs does this apply to?

Big chunks of the warehouse sequences with Tim Roth dying (including dialogue) are lifted straight from City On Fire.  As I said above.  Parts of the post-heist sequence also mirror CoF's post-heist sequence in way that goes beyond influence or homage.

madhair60

Could you give an example of the specific identical dialogue? Is there a video comparison or something?

Old Nehamkin

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 10, 2019, 10:06:28 AM
Big chunks of the warehouse sequences with Tim Roth dying (including dialogue) are lifted straight from City On Fire.  As I said above.  Parts of the post-heist sequence also mirror CoF's post-heist sequence in way that goes beyond influence or homage.

OK, that covers a pretty big chunk of the film though. Are there any particular segments you could point to that are "shot-for-shot and beat-for-beat" lifts? I'm interested in looking up the scenes in question for comparison.

Shit Good Nose

#33
There are a couple on YouTube - search Reservoir Dogs City On Fire comparison (although they only scratch the surface, and whatever source the uploader used for COF has a REALLY dodgy English translation [probably dubtitles]).

IIRC, QT also wanted to end RD the same way as COF, cutting to the gathered cops outside, but he didn't have the budget, so he just finished with the audio of the approaching sirens.

EOLAN

Quote from: bgmnts on September 09, 2019, 10:59:08 PM
I like Tim Roth and think he's actually a rather decent actor.

Yep. I wish Tin Star was just 95% Roth slowly walking around; stalking various people and saying "Alright" in a menacing manner. Unfortunately it's only about 75% of that.

Reservoir Dogs is only Tarantino film I have watched fully. Weren't there some more light touch "White Heat"  references/homages as well.

phantom_power

Roth is fucking amazing in Tin Star, which makes it all the more odd when he is shit in some things, as he is clearly a great actor given the right circumstances. That said I think part of the problem is his combination of naturalism and over-the-topness which only suits certain types of film

marquis_de_sad

If you want to see the final two scenes of City on Fire (the heist and the shoot-out), it starts here. This is the section of the film where Tarantino clearly borrowed a lot. It only has Spanish subs (and is dubbed into Mandarin), but you can get the gist. Obviously massive spoilers, and you should watch City of Fire if you haven't before.

Chow Yun Fat is the Tim Roth equivalent and Danny Lee is the Keitel equivalent.

THE HEIST
Obviously few similarities at the beginning, as we don't see the heist itself in Reservoir Dogs. This is apparently a minor difference to people who think the films are the same, despite the uncertainty of what really happened during the heist being a major plot point and source of tension in Dogs.

During the heist, Chow recognises Lam's disguise, meaning Lam was at the scene when Chow's fellow undercover cop was murdered (different). One of the robbers shoots a female shop assistant for triggering the alarm (similar). Because they already knew about the robbery, the cops were immediately on the scene (similar). The robbers flee in a taxi as 'Joy to the World' plays on the soundtrack (different). They crash the car into a delivery truck and exchange shots with the police, both sides taking hits (similar enough). Lee is shot (different) then Chow takes a bullet for him in the stomach (similar in that Roth gets shot in the stomach, but he doesn't take the bullet for Keitel and he isn't shot by the cops). They flee in a stolen car (similar). The cops discuss the situation: they have a lead (different), but Sun Yueh doesn't want to share the info with his rival Roy Cheung (different). Sun Yueh reluctantly tells Cheung that they found one of the robber's wallets (different).

THE SHOOT-OUT
The robbers drive to a warehouse to rendezvous with the boss (similar). The boss is certain Chow is a cop (similar, but his reasons are different). The gang all draw guns on each other in suspicion of Chow being a cop and Danny Lee defends him (similar), but they don't shoot each other (different). Then they start having a shoot-out with the cops (similar-ish) and we see some more back and forth between Sun Yueh and Roy Cheung (different). One of the robbers gets killed by the cops and another tries to surrender, (different) but he's pulled back by the boss, who he then draws his gun on (different). The boss then shoots him for not following orders (different). Both Chow and Lee are outraged by this, and they draw guns on him as he does on them, and they win the shoot-out (similar-ish). Lee goes to leave, but Chow is too injured (different). He tells him to go on without him, but then pulls him back and admits he's a cop (similar). Lee pulls a gun on him, and for a moment you think Lee might have shot Chow (similar) but then the cops burst in and arrest him before he pulls the trigger (different). As he is arrested, Lee realises that Chow has already succumbed to his injuries (different) and Lee is taken to a police van to the sound of mournful saxophone music (different). Sun Yueh smashes a brick on Roy Cheung's head in digust (different).

BeardFaceMan

Quote from: Old Nehamkin on September 10, 2019, 10:18:17 AM
OK, that covers a pretty big chunk of the film though. Are there any particular segments you could point to that are "shot-for-shot and beat-for-beat" lifts? I'm interested in looking up the scenes in question for comparison.

It's been a while, but I seem to remember Mr White shooting the two cops in their car through their windscreen being a direct copy, shot in exactly the same way. And also Mr White saying "blah blah blah, I repeat, blah blah blah" was a direct lift of some dialogue.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: up_the_hampipe on September 09, 2019, 11:15:04 AM
Keitel is at his most Keitel in this one. "

I dunno, I think there's a case to be made for Bad Lieutenant. Or Taxi Driver.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on September 09, 2019, 11:52:36 PM
The problem with saying Reservoir Dogs is just a rip off of City on Fire and Kansas City Confidential is that Reservoir Dogs doesn't feel anything like those films. Note the clear influence, yes, but it's about how you handle the material, not whether it's original or not.

Tarantino said something similar, to paraphrase "Real genius takes something, and makes it better."

lipsink

"You shoot that man, you die next. Repeat. You should that man, you die next."

Keitel's groans in the last scene just after he's been shot and Orange confesses are brilliant. He does some fantastic groans in Bad Lieutenant too.

I rewatched this again recently (I've seen it hundreds of times) and was similarly impressed by how well shot the whole Mr Pink/cops sequence was. By a first time director too! I also never noticed that shen Pink and White are talking in at the sink and the closeup of Pink as he sits down shows he's visibly in pain (from being hit by the car). Also, the scene where Orange goes to leave his apartment multiple times never really resonated with me before but it's fucking beautiful. He's absolutely terrified. He says the exact same thing to cop that he says to himself: "Don't pussy out me now".

Has anyone wondered what the symbolism is with the Orange at the handryer scene is? He's turning his back on the police as he gets more into the character of a criminal?

Also, having not heard Blonde's dialogue to the cop for a long time I'd forgot how fucking scary it is.

Michael Madsen plays Blonde brilliantly. As a psycho who acts slightly dumb and boyish. I'd love to have actually seen his explanation to Pink, Nice Guy and White if he'd gone ahead and burnt the cop.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: BeardFaceMan on September 10, 2019, 12:42:16 AM
But there's a bit of a difference between being influenced by a film, and stealing scenes and dialogue from a film. What Tarantino does goes a bit beyond being influenced by a film, he just likes to take cool moments from what he thinks are obscure films that no one has seen and put them in his films.

Yeah but he still has to direct the actors etc and the result is never identical. This is a tedious subject anyway.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 10, 2019, 10:06:28 AM
Big chunks of the warehouse sequences with Tim Roth dying (including dialogue) are lifted straight from City On Fire.

Again, tedious argument. Funny how nobody complains about Airplane! being a rip off of Zero Hour but talk about any Tarantino film and the old plagiarism chestnut pops up immediately.

marquis_de_sad

I used to really like Arika Kurosawa's Throne of Blood until I found out it was a total rip off of Macbeth. Unsubscribed.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: lipsink on September 10, 2019, 01:56:52 PM
I'd love to have actually seen his explanation to Pink, Nice Guy and White if he'd gone ahead and burnt the cop.

It would have been deliciously nonchalant, no doubt.

"Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite?"

Shit Good Nose

It's not just Reservoir Dogs though - it's pretty much every single one of his films.  See my post on the previous page...

Piggyoioi

Rarely is something ever completely original, people who don't create anything dont seem to grasp this. What matters is if you change enough and move things forward in another direction.

NoSleep

Tarantino stole the idea of stealing stuff from other films.

Kurosawa - "Signor Leone, I have just had the chance to see your film. It is a very fine film, but it is my film."

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on September 10, 2019, 02:11:11 PM
It's not just Reservoir Dogs though - it's pretty much every single one of his films.  See my post on the previous page...

Personally I think Tarantino has his own voice as a director, so I'm not sure what level of lifting would bother me that much. If he lifted a load of stuff and made shitty, bland, uninteresting films I'd be less sympathetic but I don't think he does that. And he wears his thieving/homage/borrowing on his sleeve so plagiarism is the wrong word.

I just think it's a well worn and tedious subject that would be much better directed towards other people. And I'm not a fan boy by any means, I haven't even seen his new film yet and might well not be arsed to see it in the cinema.

Sure a guy remade Psycho shot for shot some time in the 90s. Let's have a go at that guy.

The Culture Bunker

I never quite understood why Mr Orange confesses to White at the end. I mean, surely he knew it wouldn't go over too well - some sort of 'going to die anyways, might as well come clean' type of thing?

lipsink

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on September 10, 2019, 02:22:09 PM
I never quite understood why Mr Orange confesses to White at the end. I mean, surely he knew it wouldn't go over too well - some sort of 'going to die anyways, might as well come clean' type of thing?

Yeah, Orange probably feels like he owes it to him as the two of them have grown incredibly close. White has spent pretty much entire film looking after Orange and defending him from others.  He also just killed 2 of his old friends (Joe and Nice Guy Eddie) for him. Orange is definitely dying at this point anyway.

Has anyone worked out what Mr White whispers just before he combs Mr Orange's hair? And why he groans right after?

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: lipsink on September 10, 2019, 02:30:50 PM
Yeah, Orange probably feels like he owes it to him as the two of them have grown incredibly close. White has spent pretty much entire film looking after Orange and defending him from others.  He also just killed 2 of his old friends (Joe and Nice Guy Eddie) for him. Orange is definitely dying at this point anyway.
Still, it might have worked better if White had managed to ask him "are you a rat?" (in a "check I'm dying for something worthwhile here" moment) rather than Orange just blurting it out.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on September 10, 2019, 02:22:09 PM
I never quite understood why Mr Orange confesses to White at the end. I mean, surely he knew it wouldn't go over too well - some sort of 'going to die anyways, might as well come clean' type of thing?

This is explained by Tarantino in at least one interview. It involves some Japanes thing called erm...Jini....I think. Anyway if it is Jini, that is a Japanese term for a feeling beyond honour. Honour after its been given steroids. Extreme honour. He admits to Mr White from some deep feeling of extreme honour, even though he knows it will probably get him killed. From a self preservation standpoint it's a stupid move and no mistake, but the decision was not made with self preservation in mind.

lipsink

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on September 10, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
Still, it might have worked better if White had managed to ask him "are you a rat?" (in a "check I'm dying for something worthwhile here" moment) rather than Orange just blurting it out.

It works better because Mr White believes with all his soul that Mr Orange isn't a rat. He wouldn't have killed 2 of his old friends otherwise.

Puce Moment

This conversation alone shows why this is the best Tarantino film, imo. I can't imagine discussing The Hateful Eight with even close to as much scutiny. Jackie Brown is a wonderful film, but Dogs is just so taut and lacks the bagginess of every film in his downward trajectory CV.

Shit Good Nose

Or it could just be because Ko Chow tells Fu in City On Fire...

Just saying.

(/deliberately provocative, but not in a sexy way)

bgmnts

Star Wars nicked its screen transitions from Akira Kurosawa.

Puce Moment

Quote from: bgmnts on September 10, 2019, 05:00:43 PMStar Wars nicked its screen transitions from Akira Kurosawa.

I really don't care about Tarantino's plundering of cinema (nobody seems to have mentioned Hard Boiled in the context of Dogs which to me was always the chief reference). But defending him on the basis of 'all cinema half-inches other cinema' seems a bit disengenious. Having just watched Annhilation with its Tarkovsky/Ballard 'influences', I don't really mind if it is done well. Dogs does it well. Almost everything after that, less so.


lipsink

I always wondered why they went for breakfast in the diner at the start all wearing their suits? Isn't that a bit suspicious looking?

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: checkoutgirl on September 10, 2019, 02:01:51 PM
Funny how nobody complains about Airplane! being a rip off of Zero Hour but talk about any Tarantino film and the old plagiarism chestnut pops up immediately.
Quote from: checkoutgirl on September 10, 2019, 02:21:19 PM
Sure a guy remade Psycho shot for shot some time in the 90s. Let's have a go at that guy.
The entire conversation around the Psycho remake was about it being shot for shot. Airplane is a spoof - it only works if people get the references. Neither film attempts to hide their source material. ZAZ even went as far as buying the rights to Zero Hour just to be safe.

I like Tarantino's films as much as the next person (as long as they aren't Shit Good Nose) but it's still a bit disappointing to find that they go beyond simple stylistic mimicry and into lifting entire scenes.