TRUMP No. 9: A weird fucking bumble hex

[Paul Calf]

You want me to spend my Saturday night developing a campaign to change your firmly held opinion. You have the information, so what you're asking from me is an intense amount of effort spent on a fruitless task. I'm all set thanks. You understand that other people think that there's scope for change if the Dems prove themselves to be abject failures in their current mode, you just don't think the same thing.

At this point the only thing left to do is for you to lay out your vision for hope in a future where the right-wing Democrats are emboldened with a win. If I were you I'd begin trying to rationalise how the fuck Obama just made things worse when he actually had a mandate for change, and then try to reconcile that with how the Biden campaign is doubling down on the promise that nothing will fundamentally change. Good luck.

I'd like to see you justify the 'worse of two evils' option. But you won't because you know that the only argument you have is risibly, obviously false and involves the Democrats being shamed into action by the rise of genuine fascism in a supposed democracy. I agree that in a sane and rational world this would absolutely happen, but in this one it will not.

I'm not going to blame people for not voting for a rapist

But they're going to get one whatever happens, so wishy-thinking bullshit accelerationism aside, what are you actually doing about this?

[Dewt]

I'd like to see you justify the 'worse of two evils' option. But you won't because you know that the only argument you have is risibly, obviously false and involves the Democrats being shamed into action by the rise of genuine fascism in a supposed democracy. I agree that in a sane and rational world this would absolutely happen, but in this one it will not.

Voters making the party's current guard untenable != shaming Democrats into action
The centrist-supporting posture of the mainstream media having to change in order to appeal to people != Democrats being shamed into action

You're right that the idea of shaming Democrats into action is risible, which is why it hasn't been suggested.

There is a visible rise of progressives within the party. They have almost snatched the party's control in two primary runs. Tell me how a Biden loss--another great example of how hopeless the corporatists in the party are--wouldn't help make progressive wins more likely in the future.

[Alberon]

The only problem with that, and it's a big problem, is that it leaves Trump in charge for four more years.

That just can't be allowed to happen.

[Dewt]

Would you prefer to be fined $40 a week for the next four years or $39 dollars a week for eternity?

It is incorrect to think that a vote for Biden is a vote against the current system. He is part of the big scam.

[Alberon]

Would you prefer to be fined $40 a week for the next four years or $39 dollars a week for eternity?

It is incorrect to think that a vote for Biden is a vote against the current system. He is part of the big scam.

Well, obviously the first, but it's a mistake to believe that these are the only options. You could easily end up paying $40 a week forever, or until the dollar becomes valueless anyway.

The idea that the Democrats will get a clue after being defeated by Trump a second time is laughable. They 'know' they're right so they will keep plugging away with the same repellant dullards until the American public realise that they were wrong. If Trump wins or loses the system will NOT change.

Trump is a magnitude worse than Biden or even Dubya. And yes, that means Biden has to be president, but at the moment there is no other choice. Trump has to go now.

[Paul Calf]

Voters making the party's current guard untenable != shaming Democrats into action
The centrist-supporting posture of the mainstream media having to change in order to appeal to people != Democrats being shamed into action

You're right that the idea of shaming Democrats into action is risible, which is why it hasn't been suggested.

There is a visible rise of progressives within the party. They have almost snatched the party's control in two primary runs. Tell me how a Biden loss--another great example of how hopeless the corporatists in the party are--wouldn't help make progressive wins more likely in the future.

So, accelerationism then. "This will teach them!"

It won't. The lessons that they'll learn will not be the ones you expect, and another four years of Trump and his hideous coterie of neo-fascist squatters ignoring, mutating and destroying the systems, checks and balances that are there to prevent people like him seizing all the power and using the state apparatus to control the press and squeeze out propaganda, lies and hatred.  Under these circumstances, in which direction do you think the Overton Window is likely to shift?

If a Biden premiership would save just ONE life then the vote for the Democrats is a no-brainer and holding out because your candidate didn't win is callous and sociopathic.

[Mister Six]

I'm not going to blame people for not voting for a rapist (not to mention all the other shit Biden's done). either way I'm not sure if it will change much, the US are still fucked unless there's some kind of popular insurgency.

And even then, the popular insurgency will be overweight white supremacists freaking out because the latest centre-right president is black again.

[chveik]

But they're going to get one whatever happens, so wishy-thinking bullshit accelerationism aside, what are you actually doing about this?

I'm not an American citizen, so materially the only thing I can do is talking shite online.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The only problem with that, and it's a big problem, is that it leaves Trump in charge for four more years.

That just can't be allowed to happen.

Previously I would have completely agreed. I backed Gore, Kerry etc.

However, it isn't that it can't be allowed to happen - it is going to happen.

Conclusively. Biden isn't going to win or come close to winning even with the left's support. He's going to lose badly.

I don't advocate the left running a disruptive campaign - we don't want the outcome attributable to the left. I advocate on this occasion inaction just sitting back and watching it happen, commenting as little as possible. That way there can be fewer excuses from the centre for their miserable defeat and a huge opportunity for grassroots politics to challenge the patrician Democratic establishment afterwards.

[Paul Calf]

I'm not an American citizen, so materially the only thing I can do is talking shite online.

Me too. It's fucked up that the voting patterns of people I'll never thousands of miles away have such a profound effect on my life and there's nothing I can do about it.

[Abnormal Palm]

Trump is actually doing a great job with the boomer plague so long may his reign continue 🤣

[Old Nehamkin]

I think the question boils down to whether you see Trump as some sort of ahistorcial glitch in the system or as the inevitable product of the broad, ever rightward-shifting neoliberal consensus maintained by the Democrats and Republicans over the last four decades, with all its attendant institutional rot. If you believe the former then I guess beating Trump in November solves the problem for good. If you don't, you really need to take a couple of steps back and ask yourself the question: what comes next?

A Biden victory would see not just a re-affirmation, but a dramatic emboldening of the worldview and strategy that made Trump's rise possible in the first place. It would also completely kneecap the left wing of the Democratic party who, as Dewt points out, have made real and substantial gains over the last four years and came so close to winning the last primary that the party establishment had to orchestrate the most shameless backroom deal in living memory to push three candidates out of the race immediately before Super Tuesday and so clear the way for Biden.

It really isn't an outlandish fantasy to imagine the Democratic left continuing to expand and consolidate their influence over the next four years if the corporate wing is defeated yet again this November. The last four years have seen the fabric of the party tangibly altered by a huge groundswell of support for socialist ideas which has pushed the window of debate leftward to an extent that would have seemed unimaginable pre-2016. It can't be overstated how determined the party establishment is to curtail and crush this movement, and how ruthlessly they will move to freeze the left out of power and influence in the event of a Biden win. This election could very well decide the fate of the first socialist movement to achieve a significant foothold in American electoral politics for at least two generations, and I really don't think it's accelerationist or "wishful thinking" to take that factor very, very seriously.

The Biden administration itself would, functionally, be similar to Trump's in most respects. He won't abolish ICE or close the border camps. He won't stop indiscriminately bombing the middle east, collaborating with despotic nations to perpetrate genocide and apartheid, or using the intelligence services to undermine and destroy democracy in developing countries. He won't make the slightest gesture towards universal health care, college debt relief or any other meaningful welfare program. He's unlikely to reverse Trump's tax breaks, and if a proper recession breaks out it'll be huge corporate bailouts and brutal austerity all round. He'll shift the Democratic party a few notches to the right of Obama and the Overton window will dutifully creak along in turn. And there's the question again: what comes next?

[Paul Calf]

Are the stakes for this gamble "other people's lives"?

[Old Nehamkin]

Are the stakes for this gamble "other people's lives"?

Sorry, could you give me the exact figures of the people who are going to end up dead in the Trump-wins future versus the Biden-wins one? It'll make it a bit easier for me to weigh up my decision.

[Old Nehamkin]

Trump is a magnitude worse than Biden or even Dubya.

Bush started two illegal wars within his first term which killed millions and displaced millions more. Trump isn't there yet, let's not be revisionist.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Trump's been to his private golf courses in Virginia playing golf. According to NBC:

Trump was seen playing with three other people at his golf course Saturday and was seen driving a golf cart alone around the course. At one point, Trump patted another golfer on the shoulder. None of the players were seen wearing a mask.

Remember when Trump criticised Obama for playing golf during the Ebola pandemic?

Maybe playing golf might calm him down a bit.

[Dog Botherer]

Bush started two illegal wars within his first term which killed millions and displaced millions more. Trump isn't there yet, let's not be revisionist.

can't remember now, which right wing dem eagerly whipped votes for the Iraq war at Bush's request? hope that guy isn't still around.

[evilcommiedictator]

I love it how every dipshit centrist and Democrat hack spends more time telling off the 2.5% of the population who voted third party and the 2.5% of the population who allegedly wanted Bernie in the Primary and didn't vote for Hillary, whilst pretending the 50% of the population who don't vote do not exist. Why bother trying to get their vote, I mean, doing that only got you a black man as president and one of the biggest swings in decades

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I love it how every dipshit centrist and Democrat hack spends more time telling off the 2.5% of the population who voted third party and the 2.5% of the population who allegedly wanted Bernie in the Primary and didn't vote for Hillary, whilst pretending the 50% of the population who don't vote do not exist. Why bother trying to get their vote, I mean, doing that only got you a black man as president and one of the biggest swings in decades

Don't vote or can't vote? Look into some of the blatant gerrymandering and purging of voter rolls under the guise of "preventing voter fraud" that just so happen to make it harder for black people and Native Americans and people who have two jobs (because the pay is shit) to vote.

[Dewt]

Are the stakes for this gamble "other people's lives"?

Biden is already responsible for more deaths than Trump.

Me too. It's fucked up that the voting patterns of people I'll never thousands of miles away have such a profound effect on my life and there's nothing I can do about it.

The people of Iraq would agree with you.

[Dewt]

I feel like the "just hold your nose and vote for Biden you children" have forgotten or didn't know that Biden was one of the architects of mass back incarceration. If you do know but still think it's a no-brainer then fuck you.

[Dewt]

The idea that the Democrats will get a clue after being defeated by Trump a second time is laughable.

Why do people keep insisting that this is the strategy even directly after posts which say "this is explicitly not the strategy"?

[Dex Sawash]

I'm voting for nadir again

[monkfromhavana]

Why is it so impossible for another political party to be started in America?

[Dog Botherer]

Why is it so impossible for another political party to be started in America?

$$$

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

Why is it so impossible for another political party to be started in America?

Because the two main parties have passed a bunch of laws making it difficult for third party candidates to even get on the ballot. They're also in charge of organising presidential debates and don't allow third party candidates to take part (they used to be organised by an independent body, I want to say the League of Women Voters?)

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Would you prefer to be fined $40 a week for the next four years or $39 dollars a week for eternity?

If the Republicans maintain control of both the Senate and the Presidency for another four years, the stacking of the federal judiciary with extreme right-wing zealots will have progressed so far that it will be nearly impossible to effectuate any meaningful progressive legislation for at least the next 40+ years.

Boring and depressing but true.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Because the two main parties have passed a bunch of laws making it difficult for third party candidates to even get on the ballot. They're also in charge of organising presidential debates and don't allow third party candidates to take part (they used to be organised by an independent body, I want to say the League of Women Voters?)

In terms of the presidential election, the antiquated state electoral system also makes it virtually impossible for a third-party candidate to win even with a plurality of the national vote.

[a peepee tipi]

But they're going to get one whatever happens, so wishy-thinking bullshit accelerationism aside, what are you actually doing about this?

How naive it is to think that there is anything that can be done other than voting, civics begins and ends there after all. I have full faith that a vote for Biden is a vote for getting those kids out of those cages. You can tell he means it when he says he will because he's not crossing his fingers behind his back

[a peepee tipi]

Trump's been to his private golf courses in Virginia playing golf. According to NBC:

Remember when Trump criticised Obama for playing golf during the Ebola pandemic?

Maybe playing golf might calm him down a bit.

The less he actually works in his capacity as leader of the free world is purely positive