Wokeness

[Thursday]

who gives a fuck, what happens if I make a joke, nothing. jesus christ

Ah the standard defensive reaction of a straight white cis male who's been called out.

[madhair60]

I've been called out, bro. Straight up called out on my bullshit. Not cool. Legitimately called out.

Not cool.

Yikes.

[Beagle 2]

I struggle with this stuff because I can't relate to it and I automatically want to file it as pretentious behaviour and take the piss in the way we all used to take the piss out of Prince, but I am aware that's because I'm a heterosexual bloke from a different era, it's fuck all to do with me and I'll address anybody the way they want to be addressed because it's completely up to them. I changed my name and everybody started using that name immediately. If I'd said I'd changed my name because of the way I felt, I wouldn't have expected people to start being dicks about it. 

[Dr Rock]

One thing that annoys me is that the 'anti-woke' lot use the word disparaging as if it is a word 'woke' people use to describe themselves, which it may have been for about 6 months five years ago.

[sevendaughters]

Being formally inclusive is good, but woke bullying exists too. In my gf's friend whatsapp group someone put in a picture of some ghosts they'd made out of mash for Halloween with the caption "unfortunately it looks like the KKK". more than one of the group took him to task, to check his privilege, i can't remember specifics, super earnest overreaction to a friend making an observation. it doesn't happen as often as right-wing thinkers would love it to, conveniently forgetting that 20 loud people on twitter doth not a demographic make.

[phantom_power]

I struggle with this stuff because I can't relate to it and I automatically want to file it as pretentious behaviour and take the piss in the way we all used to take the piss out of Prince, but I am aware that's because I'm a heterosexual bloke from a different era, it's fuck all to do with me and I'll address anybody the way they want to be addressed because it's completely up to them. I changed my name and everybody started using that name immediately. If I'd said I'd changed my name because of the way I felt, I wouldn't have expected people to start being dicks about it. 

Usually it takes more effort to take umbrage at these sorts of things than just accept them

[phantom_power]

Being formally inclusive is good, but woke bullying exists too. In my gf's friend whatsapp group someone put in a picture of some ghosts they'd made out of mash for Halloween with the caption "unfortunately it looks like the KKK". more than one of the group took him to task, to check his privilege, i can't remember specifics, super earnest overreaction to a friend making an observation. it doesn't happen as often as right-wing thinkers would love it to, conveniently forgetting that 20 loud people on twitter doth not a demographic make.

There will always be twats though. Just because they are hiding behind ultra-wokeness shouldn't affect your opinion of the concept as a whole

[sevendaughters]

There will always be twats though. Just because they are hiding behind ultra-wokeness shouldn't affect your opinion of the concept as a whole

Oh yeah this was one twat and 3 people who felt more sympathy toward her (twat) than him (ghost mash). And they're young, y'know, this is how people under 30 develop cultural capital. I know that's a cynical reading and I'm hopeful that a merciful and more fulfilling version remains in them as they age and fuck up in the eyes of the next generation.

[touchingcloth]

I struggle with this stuff because I can't relate to it and I automatically want to file it as pretentious behaviour and take the piss in the way we all used to take the piss out of Prince, but I am aware that's because I'm a heterosexual bloke from a different era, it's fuck all to do with me and I'll address anybody the way they want to be addressed because it's completely up to them. I changed my name and everybody started using that name immediately. If I'd said I'd changed my name because of the way I felt, I wouldn't have expected people to start being dicks about it.

Yeah, all of this. I work with someone who goes by they pronouns, and even though it's a bit of effort for me - I can't speak with or about them on completely automatic pilot because I've spent more than 30 years addressing people more or less exclusively by male and female pronouns - I call 'em as they liked to be caused and it's basically zero skin off my nose. If anything, it's made me start to use non-gendered pronouns more generally because with a bit of practice you start to realise how little of the time they actually convey any information which is useful to what you're talking about.



EDIT: one thing which makes me feel hopelessly in the dark is the concept of "non-binary", because it feels to me like sex-wise everyone (barring a very tiny percentage of people) are non-binary by virtue of having a single sex, and gender-wise and to take what is a big simplification from wiki...:

Non-binary is a spectrum of gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or exclusively feminine‍—‌identities that are outside the gender binary.

...I don't agree with the concept of an exclusively masculine or feminine gender identity or that gender is itself binary but that instead everyone has one of about 7 billion different gender identities.

From the point of view of sex I'm non-binary by virtue of having just one of the two options, and from the point of view of gender I'm non-binary by virtue of it seeming that by just about any useful definition gender has far more than two categories. I don't think anyone would call me non-binary, though.

[Pinball]

Bill Burr said "Millennials - you're a bunch of rats. None of them care; all they want to do is get people in trouble" regarding this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49722926

I agree. White men are under attack by BAME and women etc. The converse is not true. Sexist and racist comments by BAME and women go unchecked.

How very sexist and racist.

But mostly we're talking about millennial and other twitter twats, who idly and casually destroy other people's careers and lives for mostly trivial matters that happened decades ago. Twats.

[Brundle-Fly]

Ah the standard defensive reaction of a straight white cis male who's been called out.

Are you being facetious using this term? I can't tell anymore on CAB.

[phantom_power]

Yeah, all of this. I work with someone who goes by they pronouns, and even though it's a bit of effort for me - I can't speak with or about them on completely automatic pilot because I've spent more than 30 years addressing people more or less exclusively by male and female pronouns - I call 'em as they liked to be caused and it's basically zero skin off my nose. If anything, it's made me start to use non-gendered pronouns more generally because with a bit of practice you start to realise how little of the time they actually convey any information which is useful to what you're talking about.

Also, if you are showing genuine effort to treat someone as they want to be treated, any mistake should be taken with good humour, if that person isn't a twat.

[Urinal Cake]

For comedians, media types etc it comes down to work and money. Fuck em- that's my freedom of speech.

For the rest of us it's just going the extra step of being inclusive and polite around strangers. I think people who aren't cunts appreciate the effort.

[Thursday]

Are you being facetious using this term? I can't tell anymore on CAB.

I'm not even sure myself

[NJ Uncut]

Woke is just another term for "politically correct" and is just the next brickbat rightwing cunts will use to mock anyone who shows a bit of compassion or empathy because it is something they lack and can't buy

This is my interpretation pretty much

If you're Woke its basically being fair to people. Yknow? A rule of thumb I use is if someone chooses it or not.

Horrible cunts mock someone for their gender, background, race, disability etc.

Honest question: Is there a non stigmatised phrase for this? Because I'd term it as "being normal and fair", if that itself doesn't invite a raft of issues; but phrases like Woke and Politically Correct are just swimming in negative connotations.

I'd like to describe myself as "I'm New Jack, I'm ______" - you could have "not a cunt" in there but surely, surely, the alt right and right wing folk who hate this concept of egalitarian fairness shouldn't control the dialogue

Woke itself, is a bit meme worthy, it's a quick trendy phrase for a concept hard to define.

I privately think of it as being enlightened with a small E. If you trade on stereotypes to any serious degree, and don't allow for individuality, and pre judge - that's not it, you need to explore more, as reality is not the same as the lazy assumptions some conjur up.

[Icehaven]

We had a one day LGBTQ+ awareness course at work a few months back, which I initially though would largely be a box ticking exercise given the majority of library staff I've ever worked and currently work with are among the most 'woke' (not a fan of that word but struggling to find an alternative other than 'not dicks') people imaginable. Anyway the bloke running the course was gay, as was one of the attendees who sort of took it upon herself to co-run the part of the course where we were discussing terms and titles etc. (the bloke didn't seem to mind though). However between them they couldn't agree on what the 'Q' stood for (one said queer, the other questioning) or wether or not 'trans' was an acceptable term (one said his trans friends wanted to be called trans, the other said hers didn't as it raises a difference).

So without being an aforementioned dick about it, if two people who really know their stuff can't agree on what different terms mean or what is and isn't acceptable, it's understandable when the less well versed get it wrong. There's an obvious difference between deliberately doing so to deliberately be a dick, but quite a few of us left the course that day actually more confused and less certain about how not to get it wrong than we were before. Obviously this is just one example of one perhaps not very well administered situation, but it did make it apparent just how precarious an understanding of what will or won't be offensive can be, however much attention you think you're paying.

[touchingcloth]

This is my interpretation pretty much

If you're Woke its basically being fair to people. Yknow? A rule of thumb I use is if someone chooses it or not.

Horrible cunts mock someone for their gender, background, race, disability etc.

Honest question: Is there a non stigmatised phrase for this? Because I'd term it as "being normal and fair", if that itself doesn't invite a raft of issues; but phrases like Woke and Politically Correct are just swimming in negative connotations.

I'd like to describe myself as "I'm New Jack, I'm ______" - you could have "not a cunt" in there but surely, surely, the alt right and right wing folk who hate this concept of egalitarian fairness shouldn't control the dialogue

Woke itself, is a bit meme worthy, it's a quick trendy phrase for a concept hard to define.

I privately think of it as being enlightened with a small E. If you trade on stereotypes to any serious degree, and don't allow for individuality, and pre judge - that's not it, you need to explore more, as reality is not the same as the lazy assumptions some conjur up.

I think "woke" as a term is shit for cunts, because it doesn't seem to be different from politically correct. I don't think anyone can "be" woke any more than they can be politically correct; we all just bump along with the people we share space with, and if we make choices in our use of language which are designed to avoid causing offence or disadvantage then we can say that that choice is a politically correct one, or a woke one if you're a cunt.

[Noodle Lizard]

So without being an aforementioned dick about it, if two people who really know their stuff can't agree on what different terms mean or what is and isn't acceptable, it's understandable when the less well versed get it wrong. There's an obvious difference between deliberately doing so to deliberately be a dick, but quite a few of us left the course that day actually more confused and less certain about how not to get it wrong than we were before. Obviously this is just one example of one perhaps not very well administered situation, but it did make it apparent just how precarious an understanding of what will or won't be offensive can be, however much attention you think you're paying.

^ That's pretty much my take on it, too.  I think intent is far more important than the specifics of what was said/mis-said, and in my experience it's usually pretty easy to tell whether or not someone has bad intentions when they say something.  There are also still a lot of people who don't really live online (for now) and therefore are probably nonethewiser about some of the new dos and don'ts.  Whether it's all useful or counterproductive is another matter entirely, one that I'm still on the fence about.  I've certainly seen just as many examples of people wielding their "wokeness" like a weapon as I have of outright bigotry, and some pretty extreme attitudes/behavior have become far more mainstream.

I don't feel like instilling fear of reprisal is the best way of going about these things.  I'm not sure how effective it will be for "change" in the long run, and I think we're already seeing some of the backlash from that.  There comes a point where it feels like people are preaching to the choir, alienating the congregation and then attacking their own choristers for singing a note wrong.

[Pinball]

When this excessive PC comes to an end, will it be Strokeness, or does that term imply caressing a lady?

[Thursday]

It doesn't happen as often as right-wing thinkers would love it to, conveniently forgetting that 20 loud people on twitter doth not a demographic make.

Yeah the anti-woke crowd would have it that these people have a stranglehold over all politics and media, even though the people in power are more closely aligned with their own point of view.

[Buelligan]

When this excessive PC comes to an end, will it be Strokeness, or does that term imply caressing a lady?

When this excessive PC comes to an end I'll be making my rounds with my shears and a branding iron.

[Icehaven]

Yeah the anti-woke crowd would have it that these people have a stranglehold over all politics and media, even though the people in power are more closely aligned with their own point of view.

I was talking to someone the other day who made an ufunny unPC/woke whatever you want to call it joke then immediately said ''But you can't say that anymore can you?'' to which the only logical reply can be, ''But you just did.'' If you mean you can't say it without it being marginally more likely someone will express their distaste or call you on your ignorance than it was 30 years ago then maybe not, but you can still physically say it, go right ahead, no one's stopping you, just accept you may be criticised.

[Endicott]

This kind of thing has been going on for all time. People who respect other people vs all the other cunts.

In the 80s/90s it was called PC, now it's called woke, I imaging in the 60s it had another name but fuck knows what. The cunts always complain about how they aren't allowed to be cunts, all the while acting the cunt.

Never give in to the cunts.

[marquis_de_sad]

Lets unpack this, oof, big yikes from me. I'm literally shaking rn friendo, its almost as if toxic masculinity... you know what, who hurt you? Let that sink in.

Wow... just wow, you're so problematic, ITS CALLED BEING A DECENT HUMAN BEING, just dont? Okay? You do realise I'm losing all faith in humanity. Sweet summer child, I literally cant even.

[Mister Six]

Bill Burr said "Millennials - you're a bunch of rats. None of them care; all they want to do is get people in trouble" regarding this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49722926

I agree. White men are under attack by BAME and women etc. The converse is not true. Sexist and racist comments by BAME and women go unchecked.

How very sexist and racist.

But mostly we're talking about millennial and other twitter twats, who idly and casually destroy other people's careers and lives for mostly trivial matters that happened decades ago. Twats.

Can't measure how serious you're being with any of that but I can't fault SNL. The remarks were genuinely racist and - worse - not even funny (possibly not even jokes, I couldn't really divine a gag among them), and made just last year so fair fucks to them for kicking the guy off, especially as they'd just hired an Asian-American.

[touchingcloth]

I was talking to someone the other day who made an ufunny unPC/woke whatever you want to call it joke then immediately said ''But you can't say that anymore can you?'' to which the only logical reply can be, ''But you just did.'' If you mean you can't say it without it being marginally more likely someone will express their distaste or call you on your ignorance than it was 30 years ago then maybe not, but you can still physically say it, go right ahead, no one's stopping you, just accept you may be criticised.

...and "you can't say that any more" isn't something tedious isn't have thought to add onto my tedious joke if I'd have told it twenty years ago.

[AllisonSays]

I've said many many times on here before that I'm all for it and it's a good thing (as long as no one is trying to rewrite history and "whitewash" [for want of a worse term to use] all the bad things us humans have done in the past), BUT I find it increasingly difficult to keep up with the terms, phrases and references that are and aren't okay to the point where all of my conversations with people I don't know are now very vanilla.  I did a thread a while ago about getting dragged across the coals (overstating it, but...) at work because I used the term "straight" (as in heterosexual) in conversation, and that was by someone that, up until that point, I considered to be a work mate (bit more than colleague, but didn't socialise outside of work very often).

Sorry to drag the thread backwards slightly, but could you expand on this one? I am a woke bae, or at least i thought i was, but i didn't know 'straight' was verboten. Maybe I should join the Brexit Party.

[touchingcloth]

Sorry to drag the thread backwards slightly, but could you expand on this one? I am a woke bae, or at least i thought i was, but i didn't know 'straight' was verboten. Maybe I should join the Brexit Party.

It's the same reason why "trans" is not universally accepted because it suggests that trans people are other. Straight could imply "normal" with anything else being a deviation from an ideal rather than just something different. Similar to language around people with disabilities and whether "able bodied" is the correct term for people who don't currently have any disabilities.

[Cloud]

By modern standards, probably ability privileged

[AllisonSays]

Ok, that makes sense, I guess the implied antonym is 'bent' which I wouldn't say (apart from to describe a policeman). What do you say instead then, 'cis'?