Wokeness

[Buelligan]

Ok, that makes sense, I guess the implied antonym is 'bent' which I wouldn't say (apart from to describe a policeman). What do you say instead then, 'cis'?

Or you could say heterosexual if you wanted more than one word I think.

On the wokeness thing, I think people are the same with everything that's intended for good, most of them try really hard and some of them see it as an opportunity to get power or money or dominate others.  It's the same across loads of stuff, politics, charity, parenthood, religion, all the human activities.  It's not particular to wokeness, more to humanness.

[Zetetic]

My Equality and Diversity e-learning told me the correct term is "breeder scum".

You couldn't make it up.

[touchingcloth]

Ok, that makes sense, I guess the implied antonym is 'bent' which I wouldn't say (apart from to describe a policeman). What do you say instead then, 'cis'?

For people who are mainly attracted to the opposite sex, "heterosexual" is probably the least baggage laden. Maybe.

Cis isn't a word I tend to use for myself to mean that my gender identity aligns with my sex, as I feel like to use it would be to accept that gender is binary in the same way that sex is. I don't think the language around gender identity is nearly as settled as that around sexual preferences. I can see the argument for straight being a problematic word due do its logical opposite being "bent" like you said.

[sponk]

Bill Burr said "Millennials - you're a bunch of rats. None of them care; all they want to do is get people in trouble" regarding this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49722926

I agree. White men are under attack by BAME and women etc. The converse is not true. Sexist and racist comments by BAME and women go unchecked.

How very sexist and racist.

But mostly we're talking about millennial and other twitter twats, who idly and casually destroy other people's careers and lives for mostly trivial matters that happened decades ago. Twats.

How many examples of BAME women making racist comments and going unchecked do you have?

[touchingcloth]

There was that time Moira Stuart called John Major a shonky lanky honky.

[jamiefairlie]

I think it's been said before but it's just about respect and decency. Treat people with kindness and try not to be nasty or spiteful. Sadly, this limited goal seems to be beyond around 50% of the population (maybe even 52% - ah see what I did there!)

The problem starts though when, as every movement throughout history has,  you get the 'I'm the most woke/PC/communist/whatever, I'm the best, look at me,me,me!" types. That type just fucking irritate me. I'm happy for people to do their own thing, live and let live, but don't start getting in my face and telling me how to speak in micro-details that change every two minutes and demand adherence to your belief system. I'm happy to listen to any idea if it's presented in a calm, rational and respectful manner but the minute you start haranguing me then I'm done and you're a dick.

These are the 'Student Grants' of the world and, without exception in my experience, the more ultra-whatever they are when young, the more likely they are to turn into authoritarian reactionary Tories when they get old. It's rarely about the actual cause they pretend to espouse, because their real obsession is themselves and everything they do is designed to validate their self-worth.

Anyway, be respectful, be kind and generally just let people be and don't annoy them.

[canadagoose]

Sorry to drag the thread backwards slightly, but could you expand on this one? I am a woke bae, or at least i thought i was, but i didn't know 'straight' was verboten. Maybe I should join the Brexit Party.

It absolutely isn't verboten; his co-worker is just a radge. Heterosexual or just hetero would be alternative terms though.

[AllisonSays]

I guess i have heard people describe themselves or describe sexual practices as 'het', come to think of it. Fair play. If only every problem could be solved so easily eh!

[Pinball]

It's important we all behave decently to each other of course, and to that extent one could hardly criticise woke, PC etc. I do have an issue with metoo career destruction based on twitter criticism though. Another Bill Burr quote from his latest special:

"If women ruled the world there wouldn't be any more wars, or, apparently, due process".

Due process should be followed (HR processes, police etc), not this witch hunt twitter/media feeding frenzy.  Time for that to end. For example, change the law so if a woman (as is usually the case) twitter/media-nukes a man, she loses the right to legal redress and, ideally, is prosecuted herself for making unfounded comments. If a man raped or sexually assaulted you, GO TO THE FUCKING POLICE. Not twitter. I'm surprised this obvious point hasn't been raised more robustly, presumably because men are scared shitless of so-doing. And quite rightly scared shitless, for this is the ultimate example of online bullying, intertwined with all this 'woke' millennial hand-wringing bullshit.

[Piggyoioi]

I don't mind wokeness and pc culture in general. at its core is right and the arguments they have are sound, it's just the vitriol of their loudest and lazy keyboard warrior espousers that are just simply nauseating. I think is what rubs right wingers the wrong way (who apparently are more predisposed for moral disgust) which is their picking up on the hypocrisy (obv their too deluded to see their own).

People who proclaim to be holier than tho just for the social credits can fuck right off, especially when they do nothing but add a rainbow to their avatar. I dont think the mass online obsession with identity politics is gunna be helpful at all, it's seems a very self focused movement when instead we should be focusing on class issues, class is an identity that spreads wider than anyones colour of their skin or where they want to put and have dicks placed.

And i'm not claiming to be a moral bastion, i know i should do more but damn, the conversations people are having online (which im sure isn't the wider populous) are just pointless and are simply dividing people than solving the root issues.

[Cloud]

I do worry about the Twitter cancellation culture thing but probably wouldn't put it quite so strongly.

I think it's been said before but it's just about respect and decency. Treat people with kindness and try not to be nasty or spiteful. Sadly, this limited goal seems to be beyond around 50% of the population (maybe even 52% - ah see what I did there!)

The problem starts though when, as every movement throughout history has,  you get the 'I'm the most woke/PC/communist/whatever, I'm the best, look at me,me,me!" types. That type just fucking irritate me. I'm happy for people to do their own thing, live and let live, but don't start getting in my face and telling me how to speak in micro-details that change every two minutes and demand adherence to your belief system. I'm happy to listen to any idea if it's presented in a calm, rational and respectful manner but the minute you start haranguing me then I'm done and you're a dick.

These are the 'Student Grants' of the world and, without exception in my experience, the more ultra-whatever they are when young, the more likely they are to turn into authoritarian reactionary Tories when they get old. It's rarely about the actual cause they pretend to espouse, because their real obsession is themselves and everything they do is designed to validate their self-worth.

Anyway, be respectful, be kind and generally just let people be and don't annoy them.

This.  This is a good post

[touchingcloth]

It's important we all behave decently to each other of course, and to that extent one could hardly criticise woke, PC etc. I do have an issue with metoo career destruction based on twitter criticism though. Another Bill Burr quote from his latest special:

"If women ruled the world there wouldn't be any more wars, or, apparently, due process".

Due process should be followed (HR processes, police etc), not this witch hunt twitter/media feeding frenzy.  Time for that to end. For example, change the law so if a woman (as is usually the case) twitter/media-nukes a man, she loses the right to legal redress and, ideally, is prosecuted herself for making unfounded comments. If a man raped or sexually assaulted you, GO TO THE FUCKING POLICE. Not twitter. I'm surprised this obvious point hasn't been raised more robustly, presumably because men are scared shitless of so-doing. And quite rightly scared shitless, for this is the ultimate example of online bullying, intertwined with all this 'woke' millennial hand-wringing bullshit.

This. People talk too lightly  about PC gone mad, but the point when pc fell off its fucking trolly was when it said you can't rape a woman.

[chveik]

bunch of centrist dads over here

[Zetetic]

This is a good post

It's not really.

Respect and decency only go so far. They don't get wheelchair ramps built, to pick an obvious concrete (HAHA) example. It's not just about "live and let live".

If someone's actually upset about something then "I'm done and you're a dick" isn't always the right response.

[Moribunderast]

It's important we all behave decently to each other of course, and to that extent one could hardly criticise woke, PC etc. I do have an issue with metoo career destruction based on twitter criticism though. Another Bill Burr quote from his latest special:

"If women ruled the world there wouldn't be any more wars, or, apparently, due process".

Due process should be followed (HR processes, police etc), not this witch hunt twitter/media feeding frenzy.  Time for that to end. For example, change the law so if a woman (as is usually the case) twitter/media-nukes a man, she loses the right to legal redress and, ideally, is prosecuted herself for making unfounded comments. If a man raped or sexually assaulted you, GO TO THE FUCKING POLICE. Not twitter. I'm surprised this obvious point hasn't been raised more robustly, presumably because men are scared shitless of so-doing. And quite rightly scared shitless, for this is the ultimate example of online bullying, intertwined with all this 'woke' millennial hand-wringing bullshit.

There are aspects of twitter mobbing that I hate but this is a very naive take on sexual assault and reporting. For instance, metoo was originally women who were assaulted or had their careers affected by powerful men in their industry. Men they were scared to speak out against because they (rightfully) feared for their careers. In time, when they had the strength to speak out, any real evidence of the assault/s would likely be gone or majorly diminished. Should a woman in that situation be condemned to silence? Or a child who was raped by an authority figure but is brave enough to talk about it when they're older? I understand there are issues with online vigilante culture but "Just go to the police!" as a blanket response to sexual assault is such a well-disproven answer, for many more reasons than I have the time to outline.

[Thursday]

Thanks, was just about to express something similar, but not as well. People do know you can go to the police, so they might have a good  reason for going to twitter

[Piggyoioi]

There are aspects of twitter mobbing that I hate but this is a very naive take on sexual assault and reporting. For instance, metoo was originally women who were assaulted or had their careers affected by powerful men in their industry. Men they were scared to speak out against because they (rightfully) feared for their careers. In time, when they had the strength to speak out, any real evidence of the assault/s would likely be gone or majorly diminished. Should a woman in that situation be condemned to silence? Or a child who was raped by an authority figure but is brave enough to talk about it when they're older? I understand there are issues with online vigilante culture but "Just go to the police!" as a blanket response to sexual assault is such a well-disproven answer, for many more reasons than I have the time to outline.

I think the main benefit of the metoo movements will be the climate women who are entering the industry now will be dealing with, not only taking into account the men they'll be dealing with will be of a different and hopefully more progressive generation but the predicious cunts will be too scared to abuse people knowing the repercussions lie waiting for them - and this time the women wont wait decades to speak on what they dealt with - it will happen fast and with per-view of the giant PR prone corporations that run most of the industry these days.

Obv this can be a double edges sword with what happened to James Gunn, but I think the industry and culture at large will get wise about which cases to care about and which to ignore.

[Moribunderast]

I think the main benefit of the metoo movements will be the climate women who are entering the industry now will be dealing with, not only taking into account the men they'll be dealing with will be of a different and hopefully more progressive generation but the predicious cunts will be too scared to abuse people knowing the repercussions lie waiting for them - and this time the women wont wait decades to speak on what they dealt with - it will happen fast and with per-view of the giant PR prone corporations that run most of the industry these days.

Obv this can be a double edges sword with what happened to James Gunn, but I think the industry and culture at large will get wise about which cases to care about and which to ignore.

I agree and I note the James Gunn situation - as I'm a big fan of his and saw that as the bad-faith operation it was (speaheaded by Mike Cernovich, for fuck's sake) - is one reason (of many) that I am wary of online vigilantism but, yeah, it's existence in the instance of metoo and what it could mean for the industry going forward is a net positive.

[phantom_power]

It's not really.

Respect and decency only go so far. They don't get wheelchair ramps built, to pick an obvious concrete (HAHA) example. It's not just about "live and let live".

If someone's actually upset about something then "I'm done and you're a dick" isn't always the right response.

You seem to be conflating "trying to be accepting of people's rights to identify and be described how they like" and "making changes to make marginalised people's lives better". They are different issues with different, though possibly related, solutions

[Zetetic]

The former would seem to be something very much like a subset of the latter.

[chveik]

indeed.

I'm not very keen on the communist bashing too.

[idunnosomename]

Urgle burgle boo bah

[sevendaughters]

the very concept of social justice is a Christian one that can be traced to Augustine of Hippo, who said, and I am paraphrasing, that you can't have social justice without mercy. And I think that's what worries me about the vociferous people on both sides, that there will be no mercy and forgiveness and you'll be tossed into a black hole marked CANCELLED and left stagnant like a trolley in a canal. to a small subset it is a team sport. and i never meet these people in real life either, only ever online.

[Cloud]

It's not really.

Respect and decency only go so far. They don't get wheelchair ramps built, to pick an obvious concrete (HAHA) example. It's not just about "live and let live".

They weren't talking about lack of wheelchair accessibility though, which I'd agree is a massive problem in this country (including leftie liberal Scotland... I can say knowing all too well that Glasgow for example is bloody awful for wheelchair users).  The comment that I read was more about identity politics, using the correct terminology that changes every few minutes, etc.  That's where "just don't be a dick" is a much easier response that most people can get behind.

Gender non-binary people don't need ramps building, they just need people to treat them with a bit of human decency.

[Buelligan]

I think that's true but I think Zetetic also raises a very valid point that unless PCgonemad is adopted, shit like wheelchair ramps don't either.  Because they really don't. 

Anyone feeling butthurt because they've been ticked off for using a "wrong" word should cheer the fuck up and realise that there is a force for good moving in the right direction for once and their little momentary fall from perfection is a small sacrifice for that.

[Cloud]

True.  But it's a worry that the more ridiculous it gets, the harder it is to be taken seriously.  Which things like wheelchair accessibility absolutely should... and I question, is it easier to persuade people on these matters if you're not busy being ridiculed for "ultra woke" trends like having a list of about 85 genders and associated pronouns?

[Buelligan]

Maybe but how do suggest we police that.  Who will set the bar for what is too woke to mention?  How will it be enforced?

Perhaps we could have some volunteers who read online material and so on and just jump in with a quick reproach or correction whenever anyone oversteps the mark.

[chveik]

True.  But it's a worry that the more ridiculous it gets, the harder it is to be taken seriously.  Which things like wheelchair accessibility absolutely should... and I question, is it easier to persuade people on these matters if you're not busy being ridiculed for "ultra woke" trends like having a list of about 85 genders and associated pronouns?

mate

[Cloud]

You can't "police" these things, and why would you want to?  It's an opinion.  People are allowed to have different ones and voice them

mate

86

[madhair60]

to be honest i don't see why wheelchair accessibility is such a big deal. so there are some buildings you cant go in, who gives a shit. go somewhere else. whinging cunts