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Corbyn 25: Don't recall the time I felt this alive

Started by pancreas, October 15, 2019, 04:14:15 PM

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Dr Rock


Interesting article in the Guardian by Jonathan Freedland:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/labour-jeremy-corbyn-party-leader-brexit-boris-johnson

Very much brought to mind some of the more fervent "true believers" around here while reading it, particularly this section:

"Point this out (Labour's polling), and the Labour leader's most unbending followers will insist that you can't believe opinion polls. Swiftly, they will remind you that Corbyn's poll numbers were dire back in the spring of 2017 too, only for Labour to surge by election day – though, of course, Labour still lost that contest. They believe that the lightning of 2017 will strike twice, that once "Jeremy" has equal time on TV and is back on the campaign trail, the magic will happen all over again.

Never mind that Theresa May was a truly awful candidate tied to a voter-repellent manifesto, and that Johnson will be a much wilier opponent. Or that whatever novelty and freshness Corbyn represented in 2017 will have faded this time round. Or that Corbyn is far more unpopular now than he was back then, when even at his lowest ebb his net satisfaction rating was a mere minus 41. Or that Labour benefited in 2017 from remainers lending their votes to the party to stop Brexit, a move not all of them will be willing to repeat. Never mind all that, the faith of the true believers is intact."

Nail on head IMO.

Johnny Yesno



phantom_power

Quote from: solidified gruel merchant on October 26, 2019, 09:40:05 AM
I'm not singling kelvin out but I do encounter a lot of this from people who are clearly not keen on corbyns politics, dressing their constant criticisms and doubts up in some kind of "concerned, of the left" type bollocks.
Why can't some centrists just admit that while they go in for all the gay rights stuff they absolutely draw the line at any economic policies that threaten the status quo that they personally have benefitted  from.


I am a big fan of Corbyn and his politics and I would be gutted if this project got fucked over by the vested interests in the press and parliament but I do have to admit to being worried that his image might be too tainted to gain enough popular support among even people that broadly agree with his policies. I think the honourable thing to do would be to front it out and see what happens but part of me can't help but think that if someone else were in charge without all that (fake) baggage but with the same policies then Labour might be in a much stronger position.

It's a shit situation and unfair but if we believe in the project over the personality then it worth consideration

Johnny Yesno being a great example of an unbending follower right there. 

greencalx

Come on guys, be nice to Kelvin. He posts in good faith, and I've heard a bunch of people who were attracted to the party by Corbyn expressing some doubts and I think we need to get these people back on board. So instead of aggressively suggesting they get new friends, perhaps we could be a bit more reassuring? Just a thought.

greencalx

Re 2017. Why does no-one ever talk about the manifesto? It was a great manifesto. If we go into the next election under a 2015 or 2010 manifesto, we'll be even more fucked.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: greencalx on October 26, 2019, 10:38:46 AM
Come on guys, be nice to Kelvin. He posts in good faith, and I've heard a bunch of people who were attracted to the party by Corbyn expressing some doubts and I think we need to get these people back on board. So instead of aggressively suggesting they get new friends, perhaps we could be a bit more reassuring? Just a thought.

I know, but it's boring and demoralising. If you're bothered by the way things are going, stop whining and do something to help.

Quote from: greencalx on October 26, 2019, 10:40:35 AM
Re 2017. Why does no-one ever talk about the manifesto? It was a great manifesto. If we go into the next election under a 2015 or 2010 manifesto, we'll be even more fucked.

Well, exactly.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on October 26, 2019, 10:34:02 AM
Johnny Yesno being a great example of an unbending follower right there.

We were talking about how shit that Freedland article is upthread. You're a fucking dunce who can't be arsed to read what other people have posted before posting your own inane drivel.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: phantom_power on October 26, 2019, 10:32:49 AM
I am a big fan of Corbyn and his politics and I would be gutted if this project got fucked over by the vested interests in the press and parliament but I do have to admit to being worried that his image might be too tainted to gain enough popular support among even people that broadly agree with his policies. I think the honourable thing to do would be to front it out and see what happens but part of me can't help but think that if someone else were in charge without all that (fake) baggage but with the same policies then Labour might be in a much stronger position.

It's a shit situation and unfair but if we believe in the project over the personality then it worth consideration

As you say the baggage is fake, so what's to stop them inventing more of it for the next person to step up?

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 26, 2019, 10:44:58 AM
We were talking about how shit that Freedland article is upthread. You're a fucking dunce who can't be arsed to read what other people have posted before posting your own inane drivel.

I missed that reference, however your complete intransigence on Corbyn's suitability suggesting people should "get new friends" when they dare to question Corbyn, blaming everyone but him kind of backs up the point the article was making.  You are a blind follower.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on October 26, 2019, 11:10:37 AM
I missed that reference

Yes, you did, because you are blindly wedded to your own agenda. You've been the same for years TFM. You're not fooling anyone. Fuck off now.

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 26, 2019, 11:25:44 AM
Yes, you did, because you are blindly wedded to your own agenda.

I was at work actually, nice try though.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on October 26, 2019, 11:26:29 AM
I was at work actually, nice try though.

I guess it doesn't take you long to read a shitty Freedland article when you already know you're going to agree with it.

I don't recall ever reading one of his articles before tbh.  I don't tend to read the Guardian.

Replies From View

Quote from: Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle on October 26, 2019, 10:19:46 AM
I read this article that agrees with my stance, and I somehow agreed with it!  What are the chances!  Here, let me share it with you and sneer at you simultaneously!

holyzombiejesus

Quote from: greencalx on October 26, 2019, 10:38:46 AM
Come on guys, be nice to Kelvin. He posts in good faith, and I've heard a bunch of people who were attracted to the party by Corbyn expressing some doubts and I think we need to get these people back on board. So instead of aggressively suggesting they get new friends, perhaps we could be a bit more reassuring? Just a thought.

Yes. I use this place as a sounding board, a safe place to discuss reservations about how things are going and also as somewhere to get pepped up when things are getting a bit worrying. It's not like  Kelvin's necessarily knocking on doors to express misgivings or moaning to colleagues. We should be able to discuss concerns on here without getting tutted at for not being full of gusto for Corbyn. Having said that, fuck off Kelvin you wet cunt changing the leader for another left-wing person wouldn't change anything. The media and our enemies are affronted by our policies and beliefs and whoever inherits the leadership will get just as many slurs and lies thrown at them. Stephen fucking Pollard isn't going to stop attacking us just because Laura Pidcock (or whoever) is leading the party rather than JC.
I don't think we can possibly afford to write off the next election and focus on the one after that. It's now or never. We're lucky that the DUP blocked attempts to gerrymander and if we have another 5 years of the lies and smears from a Johnson government, fuck knows what the country and even larger swathes of its electorate are going to be like.

greencalx

Nice post hzj. I'll admit to having wobbled in the past, and again this place (among others) has helped me keep my eye on the bigger picture and also look past the headlines to piece together a plausible story about what's really going on.


Rich Uncle Skeleton

Quote from: holyzombiejesus on October 26, 2019, 12:00:56 PM
Yes. I use this place as a sounding board, a safe place to discuss reservations about how things are going and also as somewhere to get pepped up when things are getting a bit worrying. It's not like  Kelvin's necessarily knocking on doors to express misgivings or moaning to colleagues. We should be able to discuss concerns on here without getting tutted at for not being full of gusto for Corbyn. Having said that, fuck off Kelvin you wet cunt changing the leader for another left-wing person wouldn't change anything. The media and our enemies are affronted by our policies and beliefs and whoever inherits the leadership will get just as many slurs and lies thrown at them. Stephen fucking Pollard isn't going to stop attacking us just because Laura Pidcock (or whoever) is leading the party rather than JC.
I don't think we can possibly afford to write off the next election and focus on the one after that. It's now or never. We're lucky that the DUP blocked attempts to gerrymander and if we have another 5 years of the lies and smears from a Johnson government, fuck knows what the country and even larger swathes of its electorate are going to be like.

Precisely, nothing would change replacing Corbyn with some hot young firebrand, man or woman, championing the same policies. They'll just ditch the age remarks and keep everything else (while conveniently ignoring the actual policies they absolutely don't want people thinking about for a second)

Was watching this Adam Curtis segment from an old screen/newswipe yesterday and this line sums it up rather miserably.

Quoteif any politican tried to do what Roy Jenkins did forty years ago, to change Britain for the better against public opinion, we and the press would destroy them.

And to apply that to this, corbyn's not even in fucking government yet! Shows how terrified these people really are of actual change but baffling and fucking infuriating how easy it is to make complete bollocks stick to him. Wants to protect the NHS and workers rights? Hmm, but the terrorist thing, better vote Tory, they say they're on our side, what could go wrong....

Naive/arrogant as this will sound it's just a case of hoping if faced with an actual election in the next two months certain people will just come to their senses instead of trying to burn the one hope we have from the inside, whether its Joe/Jane Bloggs or especially people like Watson/Phillips. You either want a Labour government or you're willing to allow another 5 fucking years of Tories, undiluted, just to stick it to Corbyn. The rallying around for Labour and the result of the 2017 election a lot of us thought was a sure Tory win still gives me hope.

BlodwynPig


I share that optimism. People really hated on Corbs just before TM called the 2017 GE, he was in a worse place then than he is now. They said he was unprepared for May's surprise election then and now he's somehow weak for tactically refusing to indulge an historically weak PM. Same shit different day, who gives a fuck.

Brexit will do the Tories in one way or another in the long run, that's all that matters.

Johnny Yesno

We're at a bit of an impasse at the moment. I think once the threat of no deal is eliminated, things will start falling into place.

pigamus

Laura Pidcock's surely too young, isn't she? She's be like the second youngest PM ever or something.

holyzombiejesus

I know in the past she's said she's not interested in leading the party but I get the impression she's being readied as Corbyn's successor. I'm not sure who else I'd want or would attract votes. I'm not that keen on RLB or Rayner at the moment but hopefully the next leader won't be needed until we're nearing the end of 5 years of government with various candidates being given a chance to shine and the public will be dazzled by our transformative policies.

Kelvin

Lot of posts since last night.

Quote from: BlodwynPig on October 26, 2019, 08:04:08 AM
Give over Kelvin, stop rubbing your wish lamp and get behind Corbyn. No more concessions to the glib.

I wouldn't bother answering this, but it's important to remind people who aren't cunts that posting occasional opinions on a pro-Corbyn forum that don't 100% align with the majority is not evidence that I'm opposed to Corbyn. I support Corbyn by voting for him at every opportunity, by paying money to the party, by defending him among people who aren't pre-Corbyn, and hopefully by doing something for the party come election time - yes, the one Corbyn may be fighting. The reason I occasionally voice more critical or concerned opinions here is because this place is basically an echo chamber - albeit one with a couple of right wing panto villains you'll cite for balance. Actual diversity of opinion and good faith critisism (ie. from a left wing perspective) is almost non-existent. These threads are insightful, yes, but they're also riddled with the same opinions, the same narrative, the same arguments - because outside of the easily dismissed right wingers, actual divergence of opinion is almost never engaged with, only met with insults or ignored. 

Here Johnny Yesno quite literally admits that he wants this place to be an echo chamber:

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 26, 2019, 10:43:49 AM
I know, but it's boring and demoralising. If you're bothered by the way things are going, stop whining and do something to help.

In other words; if you aren't part of a more optimistic narrative, I don't want to hear it. You only want to surround yourself in opinions that make you feel good, which is no was of getting at truth or improving ourselves.

QuoteYou've been reading too much centrist twitter.

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 26, 2019, 09:04:28 AM
Ah, I've just realised you've been reading Freedland, haven't you, Kelvin?

You lot are the daft sods who endlessly immerse yourself in that right wing garbage, not me.

Quote from: solidified gruel merchant on October 26, 2019, 09:40:05 AM
I'm not singling kelvin out but I do encounter a lot of this from people who are clearly not keen on corbyns politics, dressing their constant criticisms and doubts up in some kind of "concerned, of the left" type bollocks.
Why can't some centrists just admit that while they go in for all the gay rights stuff they absolutely draw the line at any economic policies that threaten the status quo that they personally have benefitted  from.

You may not be singling me out, but you're citing me as if I'm an example of this. This does not describe me. I want a left wing government, a left wing economic system, a left wing Prime Minister, etc. I've backed Corbyn since the beginning, and would still be absolutely ecstatic if he won. Me saying that I think that is unlikely right now does not mean I don't want it to happen.             


Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 26, 2019, 08:44:14 AM
Kelvin, you've been fretting about one thing or another since Corbyn became leader. You are a fretter, a Goldilocks obsessive. That kind of politics is dead. It's all adaptive shit now. Our opponents break stuff to see what falls out and they rely on their opponents to wait for the perfect time/person/etc. Then when it comes, they'll break that too.

Not true. For at least a year, I was really very positive about Labour's chances if an election was called. I don't really believe that what I'm saying now is pessimistic either. It basically amounts to, "we can still win, but strategically, I think we would now benefit from an election post-Brexit, and probably from a new left-wing leader. Anyway, you're job is done; I can't be arsed to write anymore after all this. You can go back to your panto villains.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Kelvin on October 26, 2019, 05:45:28 PM
You lot are the daft sods who endlessly immerse yourself in that right wing garbage, not me.

Maybe you should read it, then. You might be surprised by how in tune with it your recent comments have been.

QuoteNot true. For at least a year, I was really very positive about Labour's chances if an election was called. I don't really believe that what I'm saying now is pessimistic either. It basically amounts to, "we can still win, but strategically, I think we would now benefit from an election post-Brexit, and probably from a new left-wing leader. Anyway, you're job is done; I can't be arsed to write anymore after all this. You can go back to your panto villains.

Well, the difference between us is that I'm terrified of crashing out of the EU, which is the tories' current plan. As I said before, if this happens, we won't have the luxury of being able to make political plans. We'll be impoverished beyond that. If I'm coming across as dismissive, it's because you still don't seem to realise how nasty these tory fucks are. That you are focussing on debatable issues with the Labour leader suggests that you have no idea how bad things could get.

Labour are best positioned to stop this from happening and the plan to unite remainers and soft leavers is a good one. If you think that is the stuff of echo chambers and panto villains then you are lost.

Blue Jam

Corbyn campaigns for a new cystic fibrosis drug to be available on the NHS. Succeeds. Cystic fibrosis sufferers are grateful.

Daily Mail, just fuck and die will you please? Ta:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7613195/Young-boy-stop-making-silly-faces-Morning-interview-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on October 26, 2019, 04:31:12 PM
We're at a bit of an impasse at the moment. I think once the threat of no deal is eliminated, things will start falling into place.

I agree. The Tories are in grave difficulty if they rule it out and the country gets to know the realities of their deal. They will have to fight on two fronts and face up to their domestic failure and the weariness of the public to Conservative rule.

At least Labour have a short term attempt to avoid that through the people's vote policy, which will shore up some arch Remainers and those stridently against no deal but would accept a deal, but ideally just want continued membership. Labour's task is to focus minds so people vote cleverly in each constituency, not just with their instincts. A grudging vote for Labour is has the same value as an enthusiastic one, even more so in a swing seat.

Show people graphs of the 2017 election results, get people to vote for whichever party defeats the Brexit candidate.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Blue Jam on October 26, 2019, 06:11:35 PM
Corbyn campaigns for a new cystic fibrosis drug to be available on the NHS. Succeeds. Cystic fibrosis sufferers are grateful.

Daily Mail, just fuck and die will you please? Ta:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7613195/Young-boy-stop-making-silly-faces-Morning-interview-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

I'm not clicking on that. Could you steal their content, please?