Author Topic: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)  (Read 14820 times)

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #90 on: November 29, 2019, 02:37:54 PM »
And that is one of the worst scenes watching De Niro in slow motion beat someone up.

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #91 on: November 29, 2019, 09:03:05 PM »
god this is boring. I've read about the story before, there's nothing new or exciting in the film. he's just following the instructions of his gangster films book. it looks quite silly too, not only the de-aging, but the whole cinematography, goodfellas under morphine or something. and there's still an hour and a half to go

That's how I felt, there were some parts I liked (mostly during the second hour) but most of the time it felt pointless and nothing that we hadn't seen countless times before, from Scorsese and others. I genuinely wish I hadn't bothered with it, and don't think I gained anything from having seen it.

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesto
« Reply #92 on: November 29, 2019, 09:14:15 PM »
Really liked the more static and introspective last hour.  Never enjoyed Goodfellas at all because it feels so much like a montage movie in a similar way to Citizen Kane.  BIG scenes smushed together with expert smushing skills, but if it doesn't breathe, it ain't alive.  First half of I Heard You Paint Irishmen felt a bit like that, but it all seemed to come alive for me the moment Pesci gave De Niro the hit.  I'd imagine most will feel the polar opposite. Also liked how Scorsese kept in so many flubbed lines and little flawed moments like De Niro not opening a car door properly.  Adds to the verisimilitude, dunnit?

As to the CGI de-ageing, I guess I was pretty impressed with how they managed to make Paquin look like a little girl throughout most of the movie.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2019, 11:55:29 PM »
Mid-tier Marvel movie = the biggest budget Scorsese has ever had aside from the 3D 'Hugo'

At 140 million it's cheaper than any MCU film while still being a massive budget, the only MCU-era superhero films that are cheaper is 'Logan', which had a famous budget slash, and 'Shazam' which still cost 100 mil with no star names

The budget for the Irishman went up massively over the years due to the advancing ages of the cast beginning to necessitate the de-aging CGI. Might have banged this out on a Departed budget if backers got off their arse
I was working off Ant Man's budget, which is around the same territory.
Not sure what your point is though, just because his films generally cost a lot doesn't mean he doesn't struggle to get funding, he's constantly failing to. Silence took 25 years to get funding (by far his lowest budget in the 20th century too), Wolf of Wall Street got put off a few times too and it was a far safer bet for an investor than casting a bunch of very old guys wayyyy past their box office peaks and using technology that could have a pretty high risk of looking ridiculous.

Besides, The Departed was $90 million in 2006. PTA done There Will Be Blood, the Master and Phantom Thread for about the same as the Departed combined before  accounting for inflation. The Coen Brothers have seemingly never cracked $40 million and quite a lot are drastically lower (most notably period pieces Inside Llewyn Davis at $11m and A Serious Man at $7m).


He wanted to do the Irishman, but if he couldn't get the exact amount of funding he wanted he was just going to do some other project he could get funding for instead and then return to it in a few years, he has the sway to be able to try and get several projects off the ground at once and just go with the one that gets the best backing. It's almost like Woody Allen in that he just has a work ethic that suits filmmaking very well.
Whereas in someone like PTA's case, he seems like the kind of guy who would myopically fixate on a project, he'll make $30 million cover the Master because he needs to get it out of his system.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2019, 12:04:44 AM »
Ant Man's budget was $162 million, making it a full $22 million more expensive than The Irishman, so there's still no MCU film that is cheaper or reasonably comparable to the budget of The Irishman

Scorsese makes big, ambitious projects, and I didn't expect that to be used as a mark against him, but I guess that's the state of the discourse. The big money is for the franchises, everybody else should expect a fraction of that amount and if they want more, that's self indulgent and a character flaw. We've gone wrong somewhere.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2019, 12:55:33 AM »
Scorsese makes big, ambitious projects, and I didn't expect that to be used as a mark against him, but I guess that's the state of the discourse. The big money is for the franchises, everybody else should expect a fraction of that amount and if they want more, that's self indulgent and a character flaw. We've gone wrong somewhere.
$140m was the projected budget, it's believed to have exceeded $160m. It's not that we've gone wrong though, we never went right.

There's a small sliver of time in the late 70s between New York New York, Sorcerer, Apocalypse Now and Heaven's Gate where relatively big money was being thrown at properly ambitious/weird projects. It was a fluke though, it was never going to last and was already correcting itself by the time most those were being released.

If there's something to rue it's that there's been this bubble of money come in since the streaming stuff took off that has been largely squandered on meh "prestige" tv shows and an onslaught of lower mid budget indie stuff. I didn't like Roma myself but I get that loads did and what I don't get is why LOADS of other filmmakers on his level and a little lower haven't been able to get similar passion projects out. The could've been a great period for mid budget films.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2019, 01:11:49 AM »
When I say "we've gone wrong" I mean in the sense that it's now widely seen as overly ambitious for Scorsese to want a large budget for a lengthy movie, which too easily the accepts the status quo framing of art that is not explicitly made in the commercial interest should cost less, otherwise that's negligence on the part of the creator. The Irishman isn't a mid-budget film, it's a go-for-broke epic. A David Lean crime saga. It's not even a 'weird' film, it's just a large scale drama.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #97 on: November 30, 2019, 01:45:44 AM »
Ah right, fair enough. I wasn't really critiquing the budget or anything, just saying it's not a surprise he struggled get it off the ground relative to his other projects and the particulars of this one.

Going back to talking about the film itself though. As far as being an epic, you're right but it never registered with me while watching; I dunno if it's that it doesn't hit sufficiently high notes or if I was too aware of the real events and it never managed to break away enough to feel epic beyond being very long. To go with the Lean comparison, I don't like his epics at all (w/e of Ryan's Daughter), but I do feel every bit of the sheer scale and ambition on hand.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #98 on: November 30, 2019, 02:09:46 AM »
It lacks the frequent stately cinemascope money shots of Lean, but that comparison admittedly necessarily falls down because Scorsese is more of an intimate filmmaker who loves working with actors, whereas Lean got further and further away from actors as he went along (with the exception of the brilliant Ryan's Daughter, which I'm glad to see some love for. One of best and most melancholic Mitchum performances)

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #99 on: November 30, 2019, 06:19:04 AM »
I loved almost everything about it and didn't even look at my watch once!

I still don't know if that was De Niro 'on auto-pilot' or whether he was doing a really good job. How would you know anyway? And does it matter?

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2019, 08:41:27 AM »
I loved almost everything about it and didn't even look at my watch once!

I still don't know if that was De Niro 'on auto-pilot' or whether he was doing a really good job. How would you know anyway? And does it matter?

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2019, 08:55:39 AM »
That was deffo him trying. Just look at most other films he's been in the last 15 years. Huge difference

With this and his part in Joker, he's probably had his best year in a long time.

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2019, 09:12:32 AM »
I loved almost everything about it and didn't even look at my watch once!

I still don't know if that was De Niro 'on auto-pilot' or whether he was doing a really good job. How would you know anyway? And does it matter?

I think he's just waiting to die now. He looks visibly bored.

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2019, 10:20:45 AM »
That was deffo him trying. Just look at most other films he's been in the last 15 years. Huge difference

I didn't see a huge difference - that's my point.

The standard counter-argument is always 'ah, he makes it look so easy - that's the mark of a great actor'. Well, maybe it's just that it IS easy.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2019, 10:03:03 PM »
(with the exception of the brilliant Ryan's Daughter, which I'm glad to see some love for. One of best and most melancholic Mitchum performances)
Yeah it's honestly Mitchum that saves the whole thing for me. Gorgeous shots and all (way better than Lawrence of Arabia for me in that regard tbh) but it feels like he adds so much to that character that may have not been there on the script at all.

Plus it's just a bold as fuck move from Lean, I think, trying to reconcile his earlier style with the scale he had moved into.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2019, 10:48:12 PM »
I found it boring, i just don't think there was enough of a story there.  De Niro's character just came across as a follower. Perhaps i'm just thick but i'm not really sure what it was all about, apart from the betrayal of him killing his mate.  Didn't really seem to be enough story to fill 3.5 hours.  I also found the CGI terrible, and wasn't sure when i was watching a flash back or not as they just seemed to always look old.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2019, 02:13:56 PM »
I think the comments about the old man body and movements are bang on. There's one bit where he's throwing a gun into the lake and he can barely lift his hand above elbow height. That was more jarring than the 'young' Frank looking like an old guy with dyed boot polish black hair.

The beat down with the grocer was like a mix of Abe Simpson and Dolemite.

Overall pretty good but should have swapped out about 30 minutes for some more fight and chase scenes with the 'young' Frank.

Sin Agog

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2019, 02:40:28 PM »
I loved almost everything about it and didn't even look at my watch once!

I still don't know if that was De Niro 'on auto-pilot' or whether he was doing a really good job. How would you know anyway? And does it matter?

I'll tell you one scene where I thought De Niro was trying pretty hard and, at least to me, only coming off mannered and sloppy.  It's the one where he's calling up Hoffa's wife to offer his sympathies.  I understand it has to be one fraught phone call, but he stammered more than Gareth Gates trying to recite Shakespeare in the nude.  Felt way over the top.

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2019, 08:31:52 AM »
Overall it was a bit boring to be honest

Holy fuck this film is loooooooooooooong.
Slow in places, but not boring.

Typical Scorsese stylings.  Lots of lovely long takes, beautifully shot, with some nice dialogue.

I must be a it thick as well as I found it quite hard to follow.
Wasn't sure if the relationship between Jimmy Hoffa and Peggy was meant to be cute or creepy, as it seemed for like the latter to me.
Lot's of the really important stuff seemed mumbled and glossed over.
Harvey Keitel was quite under-used.  Why doesn't he do more films?!

Still worth a watch overall, but it did make me want to re-visit Casino, Heat and Goodfellas instead.

The scenes with De Niro and Pesci actually quite moving. Especially their last one. Felt like we were saying goodbye to their onscreen partnerships, and I got a bit moist eyed. So much history and brilliance there

Agree with this, I was thinking this is likely the last good film these chaps might do, individually and together.
Hope I'm wrong.

I agree that the grocery store scene was bad, I actually laughed pretty hard at the part,
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 10:23:55 AM by momatt »

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2019, 08:53:04 AM »
I think the relationship between Hoffa and Peggy was just there to show how awkward her relationship with her father and Russel was. And that he was a gregarious, fun guy and Frank was a dead-eyed psychopath

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2019, 11:53:16 AM »
Harvey Keitel is too busy doing car insurance adverts to make films.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2019, 12:17:57 PM »
I'll tell you one scene where I thought De Niro was trying pretty hard and, at least to me, only coming off mannered and sloppy.  It's the one where he's calling up Hoffa's wife to offer his sympathies.  I understand it has to be one fraught phone call, but he stammered more than Gareth Gates trying to recite Shakespeare in the nude.  Felt way over the top.

Yeah, that was the scene where he had to be more 'showy' rather than be restrained and it just didn't really come off. I don't think DeNiro can or wants to do that show-off acting anymore. Pacino can still do it in his sleep but DeNiro is more comfortable just holding back. He was way more effective looking sad during that breakfast scene with Pesci towards the end.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesto
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2019, 02:34:10 PM »
Really liked the more static and introspective last hour.  Never enjoyed Goodfellas at all because it feels so much like a montage movie in a similar way to Citizen Kane.  BIG scenes smushed together with expert smushing skills, but if it doesn't breathe, it ain't alive.  First half of I Heard You Paint Irishmen felt a bit like that, but it all seemed to come alive for me the moment Pesci gave De Niro the hit.  I'd imagine most will feel the polar opposite. Also liked how Scorsese kept in so many flubbed lines and little flawed moments like De Niro not opening a car door properly.  Adds to the verisimilitude, dunnit?

As to the CGI de-ageing, I guess I was pretty impressed with how they managed to make Paquin look like a little girl throughout most of the movie.

I don't consider Goodfellas or Casino to up their with his very best(Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, King of Comedy, etc) but it did have a certain zip to it that made the gangster montage stuff entertaining to watch. The first hour or more of this I felt dragged pretty heavily and it was only when Pacino turned up that the film had much personality(did make me realise how much I missed even the hoo ha version) or drama to it.

Honestly it felt like there was a potentially good Hoffa film trapped inside of a just okish Goodfellas/Casino rerun, if Frank's relationship to him had been played up more then the last 45 mins would have been much more effective for me.

Nothing much wrong with the CGI for me besides that one scene in the dinner early on with De Niro locked totally still which reminded me of...

« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 03:50:49 PM by greenman »

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2019, 02:55:13 PM »
Should've called it The Assassination of Jimmy Hoffa by the Coward Frank Sheeran.

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #115 on: December 02, 2019, 10:56:31 PM »
It kept my attention for the final reveal of what happened to Hoffa and Frank's final pull back.

The final confrontation between Frank and his daughter was a nice opening of perspective, I was so pulled into the Scorsese clockwork that it actually hit quite well.

The narrator exposition segments fell flat for me, whereas in casino for example we were built up to a confidante and they genuinely feel like an avuncular elder crim bringing you coolly up to speed here they seemed like straight exposition, an almost offensive device considering the runtime.

Talking of avuncular elder crims, Pesci felt poorly served to me, from the stilted pauses 'subtly' not revealing his identity in the first scene through to the 'this thing we gats' obscurant language and 'weight of really fucking violent expectations' in his last period scene it all seemed like replays done with heavy strokes.

Not quite 'Shit about cunts' but not a lot new for the number of frames.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #116 on: December 02, 2019, 11:21:36 PM »
I was prepared to be pleasantly surprised, given the reviews here and elsewhere, but I wasn’t. It was a glacial, self-cannibalising slog towards an astonishingly unearned resolution.

I saw Once Upon A Time In America invoked a couple of pages back. How’s that for a comparison? A story about three different eras in the mob, betrayal, growing old etc. but such incredibly different approaches. With OUATIA, you care about the fate of every single character - goodies and baddies alike. In the Irishman, most characters are written off as soon as they appear with a caption detailing how they eventually died.

The final act of the Irishman is fine in and of itself, but it in no way justifies the preceding three hours of plodding tedium. It feels cynical at best, and really could have been any character (fictional or otherwise) sitting glumly in that nursing home. Ultimately, it’s a coda tacked onto the end of an otherwise completely unremarkable mob story, with all the nuance and subtlety of Derek.

As someone else mentioned, the de-aging stuff is doomed to look horrendous/hilarious a few years from now - if not months. I can’t think of a more egregious example of casting for star power rather than appropriateness for the role. Pacino just about got away with it, but De Niro especially was simply miscast. To add to the confusion, seemingly everyone was cast in comically age-inappropriate roles, with horrible make-up jobs to boot. It’s a fucking horrible film to look at. Everything looks wrong.

It was a dull and artless slog for me. Watch Silence. Despite its subject matter, I promise you that’s the only film Scorsese has properly cared about in the last decade, and it shows. I sat through all three and a half hours of it. Believe me, I wanted to be wrong.

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesto
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2019, 11:23:16 PM »
Honestly it felt like there was a potentially good Hoffa film trapped inside of a just okish Goodfellas/Casino rerun
I'll be stealing this and using it as my one line review whenever anyone asks

Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2019, 11:24:17 PM »
Have we all seen the Hoffa with Jack Nicholson in it?

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Re: The Irishman (new Scorsese film feat. De Niro, Pacino, Pesci)
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2019, 11:32:33 PM »
To add to the confusion, seemingly everyone was cast in comically age-inappropriate roles, with horrible make-up jobs to boot. It’s a fucking horrible film to look at. Everything looks wrong.

proper guffaw at Herc from the Wire's face. just cast a real old man for fucks sake.

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