The Wall: Is The Horrible Language In The Second Half Acceptable In TYOOL 2019?

[H-O-W-L]

Forgive the wordy title, but I've had a somewhat heated debate with a close but far more progressively-minded chum about the second half of The Wall.  If you have not heard the album or inhaled the film or any other method you will be terribly lost and I don't suggest reading further.

They're of the strong opinion that the usage of slurs in the lyrics, period, are inexcusable in their use, and the second half suffers for it, that the fascist elements should've been expressed in a more satirical and less brutal way, without the use of words like (and do forgive me because even I don't want to repeat them out of context so easily) "coon" and perogative use of "jew" and "queer".

I, myself, believe that the horrid language is important so as to make it unmistakably clear what kind of bastard Waters is singing about, and also to make it stretch beyond the point of acceptability and warp into total satire and clownery-- you can't rant alongside Pink and feel like King Shit of Fascist Mountain because he's ranting so stupidly and so fucking horribly that it would take a right ripe cunt to agree with what he's saying. I don't excuse the language itself, but I believe its use is for a good purpose within the narrative of The Wall, like how many works focusing on racism will use the hard R Naughty Word from the mouths of the villain.

As this board probably has a lot of people who've listened to and grown up with The Wall, I have to ask what y'all's opinions are? Me and my mate are at differing opinions that I doubt will ever change, so this isn't a "show up my cunt mate waah" thread, more just a curiosity of opinion.

_{Also it's probably best not to factor in the accusations of anti-semitism focused at Roger Waters in recent years. I myself think he's very clearly against the state of Israel, not Jews as a whole, but I don't think that bears in on an album he made before his criticism of Israel became the focus of his work.}

[BlodwynPig]

Those pesky raccoons.

Never had a problem with it, its blatantly obvious that the listener should be reviled by the character(s).

[Endicott]

You have the correct opinion and an idiot for a friend. And I'm not even that big a fan of The Wall.

[boki]

It's a bit like the N-bomb in the Dead Kennedys' Holiday In Cambodia, innit?  In its historical context it's understandable and Jello's delivery conveys his intentions well enough, but you don't wanna hear anyone covering it now do that (and I doubt that Jello would sing it if it was written today).

[phantom_power]

Yeah of course you are right and I am as namby-pamby wishy-washy triggered liberal as they come. It is clearly a character being played and the use of those words highlight his awfulness

If we airbrush these words out of history we are in danger of forgetting why they were an issue in the first place. I was listening to an interesting talk with the writer of Blackkklansman the other day where he says the same about the use of the n-word in Huckleberry Finn. In America they want it removed so they don't have to face up to their racist past

[purlieu]

The use of them is clearly intended to convey the appalling nature of the character, so yes, I don't think the song is inherently problematic.

There's the potential issue that a listener might have their own trauma from being attacked / abused on racist or homophobic grounds, in which case the song could be a genuine trigger. I haven't the faintest idea how that could be resolved, but I do think it would be a reasonably fair objection to the song. I'd also understand anyone who didn't want to listen to it because they don't enjoy hearing a fictional fascist cunt using those words.

[olliebean]

Home (from Radio K.A.O.S.): "Could be a cripple, could be a freak, could be a wop, gook, geek"
Leaving Beirut: "Got bust in Antibes by the cops, and fleeced in Naples by the wops"

I reckon Waters grew up in an environment where those sort of casually racist/other-ist words were commonplace, and his use of them in his lyrics comes from that.

[DukeDeMondo]

I don't know very much about The Wall, next to nothing, but from reading over those lyrics I think it's pretty obvious that the language is justified in context.

Off topic a bit, but what I have a harder time with, probably because he's my favourite songwriter of all time, is Shane MacGowan's frequent recourse to slurs of that sort.

The "cheap lousy faggot" in "Fairytale Of New York" is of no concern, nor is the "Lorca, the faggot poet" in "Lorca's Novena," for in both cases those are examples of one character or group of characters' employing harsh, abrasive, homophobic language to attack or dehumanise another. More troubling are lines like

"There's lechers down in Whitehall,
And queers in the GLC,
And when we've done those bastards in we'll storm the BBC"

... which arrives in the middle of "Transmetropolitan," an exuberant, defiant ode to kicking up almighty fuss on the streets of the capital. It's harder to distance those lines from Shane MacGowan's carefully cultivated persona, both because of how the song absolutely invites us to collude with him, and also because of things he has said in interviews since. He's never been shy of referring to the early 1980s as the era of "two faggots and a synthesiser," for example (sometimes tempered to "two poofs and a synthesiser," depending on the interview), and I don't think the "but there was a gay man in The Pogues" argument really washes. For one thing the man in question – Philip Chevron – didn't join the band until the third album.

I don't think he's homophobic, I think he just has a peculiar sort of a fetish for that sort of language. Similar to Lou Reed or someone like this, I suppose, but more problematic because to the best of my knowledge Shane has never identified as anything other than heterosexual (although of course it's not entirely clear that Lou Reed ever did either).

Then, from The Crock Of Gold album:

"Put me in charge I'd execute the artistic queers
And all the fucking bastards that drink trendy Irish beers"

That's another "character piece," but the sentiments expressed by the character aren't all that far removed from those expressed by Shane MacGowan himself in, say, A Drink With Shane MacGowan.

"Ceilidh Cowboy" from the same album is Shane in dress-up once again, but the lyrics are still pretty rotten:

"You should hear your women squeal with joy,
When I get their knickers down"

And

"I'll dance them and romance them till they're nearly out of breath,
Then when I take them out for air, I'll fuck them half to death."

And that's all without mentioning the thoroughly repellent rallying on in the key of the 'Ra.

"We put the hood around his head,
Then we shot the bastard dead,
With a knick knack paddy-whack, give a dog a bone,
Sent the stupid bastards home"

I dunno, I love the man, but there's a deeply unpleasant streak to some of his writing and I don't think a whole lot of the most unpleasant stuff is all that easy to justify. Certainly he's tapping into particular folk traditions – bawdy old reels and rebel songs – but in those cases I don't think he does anything remotely interesting with those forms. I'd rather he hadn't bothered.

[Satchmo Distel]

The rhyme of Nips and ships in 'The Final Cut' is dodgier IMHO. Contrast with the sensitive songwriting of the same period in 'Shipbuilding'.

[Pete23]

I don't have a problem with it although I did feel a bit odd singing along with thousands of other people at his O2 gig a few years ago, but then there was someone a few rows down doing a Nazi salute for most of the second half and no-one could decide if he was "in character" or taking it all a bit too seriously.

I have more of a problem with a word in the lyrics to "Is This The Life We Really Want" from his (rather fine) last album:

All of us, the blacks and whites
Chicanos, Asians, every type of ethnic group
Even folks from Guadeloupe, the old, the young
Toothless hags, super models, actors, fags, bleeding hearts
Football stars, men in bars, washerwomen, tailors, tarts
Grandmas, grandpas, uncles, aunts
Friends, relations, homeless tramps
Clerics, truckers, cleaning ladies
Ants, maybe not ants

That word always makes me wince since it feels a lot harsher than those that surround it.

[H-O-W-L]

Like I say I think it's very murky when you bring in Roger post-Wall because there's a very clean divide between the person he was when he wrote The Wall and the person he was after the album came out. Obviously I won't excuse his latter use of shit words but I think The Wall must be taken in a separate context.

[Twed]

As long as they shot the spotty cunt it's all fine.

[alan nagsworth]

I've been wincing for a while at Marilyn Manson's line in the first song off Antichrist Superstar: "Everybody's someone else's n*****. I know you are, so am I."

It's less of a character thing and more of an edginess thing which is what doesn't sit right. The context of it is that he's saying everybody is persecuted by someone else, hate exists everywhere. The song's called Irresponsible Hate Anthem, like. But really when you take not-that-big-of-a-step back it's quite easy to see that getting irked at the school quarterback pushing in front of you in the lunch queue because you chose to be a goth is not quite the same as decades of imbibed wretched persecution against a race that can't help being born a certain skin colour.

It's a shame really because the "shock rock" angle is realised to dazzling effect in absolutely every other nook and cranny of that masterful record and it is with a slightly buoyed heart and a flattening of the mouth with a little one-two shake of my head that I am compelled to bump it from a perfect 10/10 to a slightly less perfect 9.8/10. Fucks sake Brian.

[thecuriousorange]

When I saw Elvis Costello about two years ago I noticed he now changes "that line" in Oliver's Army to something completely different.

[Twed]

I really like Geldof's movie version of In The Flesh. I think it's a powerful performance, he really does conjure up evil zeal. For a long time it seemed like it was looking back at fascistic movements, but now it seems a little more relevant again (yes this is a boring, obvious thing to say). He does a good job of portraying commanding hate, in a way that successfully shows it up to be horrible.

[H-O-W-L]

I really like Geldof's movie version of In The Flesh. I think it's a powerful performance, he really does conjure up evil zeal. For a long time it seemed like it was looking back at fascistic movements, but now it seems a little more relevant again (yes this is a boring, obvious thing to say). He does a good job of portraying commanding hate, in a way that successfully shows it up to be horrible.

I think the whole rally scene from the film is absolutely incredible in its visual direction, staging, and in how well it conducts sheer horror into you when you view it. All the screaming, chanting, waving, gleeful normal-looking folk in the crowd makes it a lot more horrific than it would be were it just a block of black-suited bastards stomping in tune.

[a duncandisorderly]

I reckon Waters grew up in an environment where those sort of casually racist/other-ist words were commonplace, and his use of them in his lyrics comes from that.

well, as he never tires of telling us, he didn't have his dad to knock it all out of him when he was a kid. so.

[Satchmo Distel]

I'm surprised John Lennon is not permanently cancelled these days for "Woman Is The N**** of the World", even if Yoko gave him the title. Does Yoko still defend it?

[Twed]

I think the whole rally scene from the film is absolutely incredible in its visual direction, staging, and in how well it conducts sheer horror into you when you view it. All the screaming, chanting, waving, gleeful normal-looking folk in the crowd makes it a lot more horrific than it would be were it just a block of black-suited bastards stomping in tune.

Yeah, I think it's a bit underrated.

[Pauline Walnuts]

And that's just the Nostalgia Critic's version.

lolz.

[H-O-W-L]

I'm surprised John Lennon is not permanently cancelled these days for "Woman Is The N**** of the World", even if Yoko gave him the title. Does Yoko still defend it?

I'm surprised Lennon is not permanently cancelled for being an all-around rotten human turd.

[Satchmo Distel]

When I saw Elvis Costello about two years ago I noticed he now changes "that line" in Oliver's Army to something completely different.

Based on Youtube performances, he changed it sometime between 2015 and 2018. The Edinburgh 2018 change rhymes 'king's shilling" with killing, probably a reference to 'Any King's Shilling' on Spike.

I'm seeing him in 11 days' time so will listen out. I doubt he's sing 'n*****' to a US audience right now regardless of contextual justification. He must have had huge balls (or arrogance) to use the word in any US performance since 'the incident' in 1979. The line is also a false reading of history IMHO: The Irish have been treated badly but the slavery and lynching associated with the n-word are worse.