Author Topic: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?  (Read 9474 times)

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2019, 01:27:58 AM »
See also; Michael Jackson.

Although actually I would say Jackson shows you how things have shifted in recent decades, even at the height of his fame he was really just the sum total of his work, Jackson the person was largely unknown outside of it and almost totally apolitical.

The shift I would say is that the "famous for being famous" kind of gossip heavily celebrity has spread to encompass almost everyone famous, partly I'd say to fill demand in the media for content but also to create this kind of alternative world sandbox were politics can be played out without committing to much real change.

a peepee tipi

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2019, 01:29:07 AM »
Aziz did the disingenuous 180 though, distancing himself from his (obviously performative) "wokeness", and other, admittedly unsubstantiated, stories still float around him in the rumor mill. Have been since before that initial story came out. Slimy fuck.

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2019, 01:32:16 AM »
On a serious, on-topic note, I'd be surprised if this goes anywhere. He's well known as an eccentric bachelor; weirdly erotic, sensual oddball that everyone seems to love being around. It stands to reason that a lot of his encounters with women over the years would probably look "pervy" or "predatory" if presented in isolation, transcribed in stark black and white as words with no context. As Ferris indicates, that can be used in his defence if more concrete allegations emerge, and would probably serve to give him the benefit of the doubt with some. On the other hand, Goldblum's known, legal proclivities and activities may also prejudice people against him, and rub them the wrong way in more than one way.

Successful men who stay single (and many who don't) can have literally thousands of sexual partners in the course of their lives, and most men in Goldblum's position have been there since quite an early age. So you're famous, good-looking, wealthy, and women throw themselves at you and fight over you. Part of your fame is based on your desirability (arguably not that much in JG's case, but probably some) and your staggering number of conquests. However nice a guy you started out as, that's got to do something to you, and there's bound to be a few missed cues and a few regrettable words along the way. A week later, you (the rock star/actor) barely remember a face, but the other party may be tormented be the episode for years afterwards, completely unbeknownst to you.

And outside of your most rabid fan base, there's going to be precious little sympathy to be had if one or more of your "groupies" retrospectively decide that they resented the cold, transactional nature of the encounter so much, it was actually barely consensual in the way they think of the word when they've hooked up with a random scuzzball at a bar. From Elvis to Jimmy Page to Maynard James Keenan, there's a lot of murk, but it's simply impossible to have a sensible conversation about it if you're unwilling to take the "predator's" point of view into account.

That's obviously different from saying we should worship them like gods and consider them above the law, but you wouldn't know that from reading some of the commentary.

Definitely true that people have weird parasocial relationships with celebrities to the point where it absolutely breaks their brain to hear that their favourite millionaire entertainer might have done something wrong. You see that with a lot of defenses of Louis CK, there's loads of guys out there who thought of him as one of their guy friends, and react as if they have some weird amount of affection for him that goes way beyond admiring the work, in part because their brain has duped them into thinking that watching Louis CK media is functionally the same as hanging out with him

Doesn't that just mean that they are willing and able to empathise with him in a way they might not be with Kevin Spacey or Brett Kavanaugh? Apart from the odd angry outburst about cancel culture and gossip cunts (which is a reaction to vindictive hysteria and concept creep rather than a defense of LCK or his actions), the defenses I've seen have mostly been of the "yes, that was gross and unacceptable, but let's keep some perspective" variety. You always get some people with a track record of blind, over-the-top worship (Tool fans, anyone?), but the stereotype of the sweaty angry incel waddling to his defence, is mostly a figment of overzealous imaginations, I think.

Recent Comedy Chat unpleasantness notwithstanding, I see people pointing out stuff like what would've happened to a regular guy who did what he did, or the fact that CK suffered a public fall from grace with few parallels, and lost literally millions of dollars as a direct consequence. Even scaled down to an ordinary person's salary, that's pretty rough, considering he's not been charged with any crime, and it's highly debatable whether or not he committed any.

But according to his core detractor base, Louis CK is a serial sexual predator who got off scot free. Because he was doing well in his career when this was going on, he should be held to a completely different standard than mere laws, apparently. He abused his fearsome comedy "power"; a power the mob clearly wishes to wield for themselves and clobber the ginger pig with. It just strikes me as so much petty, vindictive bullshit, tbh. It also makes a mockery of terms like "assault", "abuse" and "predator". And that's just the opening gambit. Before long, they start laying into anyone who has anything but contempt and hatred for Louis; never mind a desire to go see him perform, or good wishes for his professional future. These people are possibly even worse than CK himself, it turns out.

See also; Michael Jackson.

I did see a lot of that from Michael Jackson fans when he first went to court. He had been accused of being a serial groomer and molester of children, though. There were enormous crowds of people out in the streets, demanding that he not be investigated because he's Michael Jackson. Every fan interview I heard from these scenes, some hysterical bitch was yelling at the camera about how they knew Michael wouldn't do anything like that. How does anything that happened in the wake of the CK revelations, even begin to compare with that? How do you even compare their offenses, when one of them asked adult women if he could masturbate in their presence, and the other spent a career molesting children?

It's mostly mob-made controversy and people creating narratives out of gossip, IMO. The implication that celebrities aren't being criticised harshly enough by enough people, strikes me as particularly absurd. I don't pity Louis CK, but he's still funny, and he's got to be allowed to live. Too early to tell about Goldblum, but I'm hanging on to my Portlandia collection for now. There was the sligthest stirring about Armisen for a while, though, so it's probably wise to keep an eye on the situation.

tl;dr:

"Jeff Goldblum"? "Jizz Dull Gloom", more like. Or "Bluff Gollum", that's a funny name too.

chveik

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2019, 01:38:58 AM »
yay another wankbeast apologist

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2019, 01:43:38 AM »
Yes, I think my post has been mischaracterised there, I never said anything about 'sweaty incels', but then again that kind of rewriting is par for the course in these kinds of things

chveik

  • I will monetize your eyeballs
Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2019, 01:44:45 AM »
you're even worse than CK Verdoux

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2019, 01:45:16 AM »
Beyond being some kind of hatesink I tend to think celebrities being used as a parallel for society as a whole isn't very effective for the reverse reasons. Its actually much more likely you'll get false or trumped up allegations against them and this can easily be used by "men under threat" alt-right types to create the idea there's a massive wave of false sexual assault/rape allegations in society as a whole.

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2019, 02:23:33 AM »
I should say, the idea of people having bizarre parasocial relationships with media figures is not limited in any way to people who have morally transgressed in some way. It's becoming increasingly common in this era of having enough content to be accessed on demand to totally immerse yourself in the work of someone who you'll never meet. I've often seen people talk about the hosts of the podcast Cum Town as if they know them, and it's always incredibly weird when people do this. If you're vicariously 'proud' of the achievements of someone who doesn't know or care who you are, then you're experiencing a culturally induced psychosis.

Sin Agog

  • Dogs fucked the pope; no fault of mine
Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2019, 02:29:57 AM »
These cats do take up an inordinate chunk of your life.  Pretending that isn't happening and that they evoke no emotion or sentiment in you might be equally deluded.

I told anyone who'd listen back in the 18th century we should never have gone secular, but no one listened to me, and now look where we are with all this celebrity business.

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2019, 02:36:32 AM »
I ain't pretendin' nothin' and I'm as emotional and evangelical as all hell about art that I love. I'm fascinated by the lives and work of loads of artists and always have been. But we're starting to imagine that people are our friends when they aren't, expecting things of them that we shouldn't and developing emotional loyalties that are unhealthy. The very fact that they are real people with lives and private complexities makes the parasocial stuff even weirder.

Shaky

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2019, 02:38:53 AM »
Round these parts, Goldblum is trending because of the new album and stuff about Jurrassic World 3.

Sin Agog

  • Dogs fucked the pope; no fault of mine
Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2019, 03:05:56 AM »
I ain't pretendin' nothin' and I'm as emotional and evangelical as all hell about art that I love. I'm fascinated by the lives and work of loads of artists and always have been. But we're starting to imagine that people are our friends when they aren't, expecting things of them that we shouldn't and developing emotional loyalties that are unhealthy. The very fact that they are real people with lives and private complexities makes the parasocial stuff even weirder.

There's been people using entertainment as a surrogate social life ever since reality TV kicked it up a gear.  Maybe even earlier if you go back to the lurid gossip mags of the late '50s called things like 'Confidential' and 'Hush Hush.' I'd say the emergence of reaction videos is even more harrowing.  People's empathy muscles are so atrophied that they need to experience some bloke opening a packet of crisps on youtube in order to keep going.

For my part I see it as a bit like discussing the zigs and zags of a soap opera.  It's fun to throw out a few armchair theories, but I know they're not my besties or anything. Then again, I do always leave an extra controller plugged in just in case...

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2019, 03:15:16 AM »
I think the era of era of youtube and podcasts has brought people into a feeling of much closer contact with the creator due to their increased prominence as the face of the work, and this causes people to feel they're being directly acknowledged or associated with in a way that even reality tv didn't do. We're experiencing some weird cultural turbulence right now as a result of new forms. I'm sure everything will iron itself out though and everyone will see sense

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2019, 04:58:02 AM »
If you're vicariously 'proud' of the achievements of someone who doesn't know or care who you are, then you're experiencing a culturally induced psychosis.

Not sure I can go along with this at all. If someone said, "I'm glad that guy on the podcast is doing well, he seems nice", I wouldn't worry about their mental health. Can't help but feel this over-reaction (not just yours) is influenced by the word "parasocial" sounding like a mental illness. At the very least, the word sounds negative, but the phenomenon isn't necessarily negative.

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2019, 05:07:59 AM »
Feeling pride is a deeper emotion than just feeling gladness in regarding something, often the language used is nowhere near as banal and relatively dispassionate as in your hypothetical example

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2019, 05:15:23 AM »
I'll have to take your word for it. I can't quite see how the use of the word "proud" tips things into psychosis, though.

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2019, 05:24:12 AM »
I'll have to admit to being somewhat figurative there

Jim Bob

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2019, 09:02:02 AM »
I did see a lot of that from Michael Jackson fans when he first went to court. He had been accused of being a serial groomer and molester of children, though. There were enormous crowds of people out in the streets, demanding that he not be investigated because he's Michael Jackson. Every fan interview I heard from these scenes, some hysterical bitch was yelling at the camera about how they knew Michael wouldn't do anything like that. How does anything that happened in the wake of the CK revelations, even begin to compare with that? How do you even compare their offenses, when one of them asked adult women if he could masturbate in their presence, and the other spent a career molesting children?

It's mostly mob-made controversy and people creating narratives out of gossip, IMO. The implication that celebrities aren't being criticised harshly enough by enough people, strikes me as particularly absurd. I don't pity Louis CK, but he's still funny, and he's got to be allowed to live. Too early to tell about Goldblum, but I'm hanging on to my Portlandia collection for now. There was the sligthest stirring about Armisen for a while, though, so it's probably wise to keep an eye on the situation.

How can I compare the two (Louis CK and Michael Jackson)?  Well, you said it yourself; a certain subset of sycophantic fans excusing and handwaving terrible abusive behaviour, as performed by somebody in a position of power, simply because they enjoy the man's art.  The two aren't all that different really, are they?  The nature of the abuse itself is beside the point.  Obviously there are degrees of awfulness, but the actual germane point of discussion and comparison remains.

I'm a firm believer in allowing people to separate the art from the artist, provided that they're able to do so.  For example, I adore the likes of Roman Polanski's The Fearless Vampire Killers, Rosemary's Baby, Bitter Moon and Chinatown and I admire the man as an artist, but as a human being, I think he's deplorable.  I'm not going to defend his actions, just as much as I'm not going to suddenly decide to no longer appreciate his art.  Having said that, I don't think that he has some kind of absolute God given right to keep making studio films.  If (foreign) studios still want to fund Polanski productions, that's up to them.  I might watch them, though I certainly wouldn't pay for the privilege to do so because I wouldn't feel comfortable financially supporting somebody who did things which I find to be detestable.

I'm quite happy to sit down and enjoy an episode of Ren & Stimpy.  Doesn't mean I'm about to go to John K's website and pay him for a signed doodle.

I should say, the idea of people having bizarre parasocial relationships with media figures is not limited in any way to people who have morally transgressed in some way. It's becoming increasingly common in this era of having enough content to be accessed on demand to totally immerse yourself in the work of someone who you'll never meet. I've often seen people talk about the hosts of the podcast Cum Town as if they know them, and it's always incredibly weird when people do this.

I agree with this.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 09:23:12 AM by Jim Bob »

Paul Calf

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2019, 09:11:15 AM »
No idea what you’re on about.

I don’t think I have anything of value to add (“you never did! Ha ha ha!”) so I’ll give this thread a miss in future. Cheers.

It's from an episode of It's Always Sunny... where the point is made that the line between sexual harassment and not-sexual-harassment is often contingent on the physical attractiveness and charm of the people involved.

Admittedly, an analogy of limited utility when it comes to groping and exhibitionism, which are never acceptable of course.

Edit - Verb-Subject agreement fail
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 09:31:13 AM by Paul Calf »

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2019, 09:21:00 AM »
I always knew that defenders of Michael Jackson were "hysterical bitches" but CK defenders (who over on the relevant thread seem to like him more because of his wankbeastery) are just concerned types who have "anything but contempt and hatred for Louis; never mind a desire to go see him perform, or good wishes for his professional future."

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2019, 10:11:19 AM »
I think this is unlikely to harm Jeff Goldblum's ongoing Bill Murrification.

king_tubby

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2019, 10:30:53 AM »
I thought Murray was #cancelled?

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2019, 01:38:44 PM »
I think all #cancellers deserve a good old fashioned #cancelling themselves, independently of what Goldblub did

I hereby also #cancel myself before any of you #yikesers can come after me

y'all folks yikes

alan nagsworth

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2019, 03:52:03 PM »
Round these parts, Goldblum is trending because of the new album and stuff about Jurrassic World 3.

Round what parts? Your private parts? It’s okay this is a safe space you can tell us

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2019, 04:55:30 PM »
I think all #cancellers deserve a good old fashioned #cancelling themselves, independently of what Goldblub did

I hereby also #cancel myself before any of you #yikesers can come after me

y'all folks yikes

Cancellers getting cancelled does happen, people don't realise the mob desire for blood will always be bigger than their woke credentials. Even if I agree with them, I still appreciate the schadenfreude.

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2019, 05:30:36 PM »
How can I compare the two (Louis CK and Michael Jackson)?  Well, you said it yourself; a certain subset of sycophantic fans excusing and handwaving terrible abusive behaviour, as performed by somebody in a position of power, simply because they enjoy the man's art.  The two aren't all that different really, are they?  The nature of the abuse itself is beside the point.  Obviously there are degrees of awfulness, but the actual germane point of discussion and comparison remains.


Well, no. I haven't seen anyone denying CK's behaviour. Nor have I seen people literally banding together and taking to the streets in his defence. I don't think the comparison holds, unless you're just talking about people enjoying a disgraced artists's work. To me, there's a world of difference between the most rabid MJ fans and the most rabid CK fans. And the nature of the abuse also factors into that.

I always knew that defenders of Michael Jackson were "hysterical bitches" but CK defenders (who over on the relevant thread seem to like him more because of his wankbeastery) are just concerned types who have "anything but contempt and hatred for Louis; never mind a desire to go see him perform, or good wishes for his professional future."

The hysterical bitches were all selected from crowds of people protesting the investigation, holding signs saying "Leave Michael Alone", "Innocent" and so on. They're probably not representative of his listeners at large.

I did mention the wankbeast thread as an arena of unpleasantness, and don't think I used the term "concerned types". What I did say is that the "angry" defenses I've seen of Louis, have mostly been in response to hysterical condemnations, exaggerations and gossip rather than attempts to whitewash his actions. I stand by that, and I think it ultimately applies to the wankbeast thread too. The characterizations Verdoux throws out here, and stuff like "they seem to like him more because of his wankbeastery"...I just don't see it, neither here or elsewhere. And you can't expect people to take those kinds of accusations lying down, especially when they're outnumbered and their accusers are enjoying themselves as much as certain "concerned types" in the prosecution. Nor can you expect them to confess, based on what amounts to mind reading evidence. "Whoops, ya got me. I am a cult member, and I'm off to see Daddy Wankbeast perform a slut-shaming!". Doesn't work like that. I'm not denying there are a few creeps out there with an incel take on the whole story, I just don't think they're the most interesting part of the CK fallout, not by a long shot.

That said, if I thought MSF and TFW were making an excellent case in an important debate, I would have joined that thread instead of adding to this tangent.

Famous Mortimer

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2019, 05:41:50 PM »
Glad to see whoever uses dallasman as their alt-right socko remembered the password.

Re: Monsieur Verdoux's excellent point, it's of an ilk where people will angrily defend Apple, or whatever product. That shit baffles the hell out of me. Keenan literally had a neckbeard go to bat in his defence when the first accusation against him came out - the line I remember was "well, of course Keenan loves anal" and passing off those backstage passes with silhouettes of women giving blowjobs as a bit of harmless fun.

I've no idea if Goldblum did anything bad or not. But beware of anyone who attempts to frame the argument as "well, this is perhaps some fan who decided to remember an innocent interaction as abuse, years later" when we've had years and years of women correctly remembering abuse and being told they're lying by those angry fans.

Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2019, 06:56:56 PM »
Glad to see whoever uses dallasman as their alt-right socko remembered the password.

I'm not a sock and I'm not alt-right. On the present evidence, I'd say you look more like both, as you can't possibly think any of this is winning hearts and minds for the anti-CK brigade.

Re: Monsieur Verdoux's excellent point, it's of an ilk where people will angrily defend Apple, or whatever product. That shit baffles the hell out of me. Keenan literally had a neckbeard go to bat in his defence when the first accusation against him came out - the line I remember was "well, of course Keenan loves anal" and passing off those backstage passes with silhouettes of women giving blowjobs as a bit of harmless fun. 

Relevance?

I've no idea if Goldblum did anything bad or not. But beware of anyone who attempts to frame the argument as "well, this is perhaps some fan who decided to remember an innocent interaction as abuse, years later" when we've had years and years of women correctly remembering abuse and being told they're lying by those angry fans.

Anyone who attempts to "frame the argument" as exactly what it is - an unsubstantiated allegation about something that happened in the past - should be treated with suspicion? That's the whole judicial system red flagged, then.

And again, which angry fans are you talking about, and how are they relevant to Goldblum or CK? My posts and this whole tangent were mainly about Louis CK fans, and no one has so far posted any examples of them calling anyone a liar. It's you who keeps framing the issues in these bizarre ways, as if your extensive knowledge of celebrity gossip and offensive memes bolsters whatever baseless claim you throw out.

It's not like I couldn't have done some Googling and come up with a list of false accusers, detailing the damage they caused. More than likely, I would've found many stories involving the rich and powerful, none of which would have had any bearing on the specific case of Louis CK and his "apologists". It would be an incoherent response to a nonsensical challenge. Not only that; you and your compatriots would most likely see that as evidence that I am in fact an alt-right troll, because why would I otherwise stoop to your level? There's a good page and a half of cackling to be had from that alone, probably, but fucked if I'm going to be the enabler.

Sin Agog

  • Dogs fucked the pope; no fault of mine
Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2019, 08:30:38 PM »
(Quoting a specific part of a long post is a total chore on a tablet, so I'll just c&p this): "The characterizations Verdoux throws out here, and stuff like "they seem to like him more because of his wankbeastery"...I just don't see it, neither here or elsewhere."

I did see legions of bruised guys on the youtube comments to that leaked set just using him as a springboard to go off on their divorced wife and ze women in general.  The doubling-down effect definitely happens.  That said, I do not like this binary, us and them shite that internet debate inspires.  Shirley there must be more to the human soul than a few work-in-progress opinions?!

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Is Jeff Goldblum #cancelled?
« Reply #89 on: November 04, 2019, 08:41:48 PM »
He was good in Annie Hall.