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The Tory Book of Lies

Started by Buelligan, November 05, 2019, 10:10:22 AM

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bgmnts

UC isn't a safety net at all. If it is its a safety net made of razor wire.

Buelligan

I just want to know how people previously on very low incomes, people without nest eggs, people in debt, people with compromised health or housing, people without internet access, people without writing skills, people with mental illness, people who are housebound, isolated, alone in the world are supposed to get through six weeks without any money.  And, if they do, how they are supposed to recover from it on benefit.

Because these people exist and that's why we need a safety net, it's a safety net for the safety, for the survival, of those that will otherwise slip through the cracks and perish.  It's not only for those who can manage without (although it's great if it helps them too).

NJ Uncut

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 06, 2019, 11:41:48 PM
I was on UC for 12 months a year and a half back. It was fine. I got my housing and expenses paid every month on time, the only ball ache was the waiting time until the first payment. Apologies that my first hand experience doesn't match with your third hand perceptions borrowed from whatever English newspapers you're reading in France. The system is far from perfect and there's lots that's not right about it, but there is a safety net in place and the vast majority of people escape it adjusted and unscathed.

My spelling isn't great when I'm posting from my iPhone. Hope that's okay as well.

Please see my first hand experience reported in the thread I'm about to link, yesterday, which in terms of time served absolutely demolishes yours, and was powerful enough for me to get on the Victoria Derbyshire show to cadge an apology from Gauke, who admitted it was failing in many respects (it wasn't quite a blanket apology, and was more to me, but I was careful to frame the failings as system level faults). I had the sheer fucking balls to go public and you know what I found?

It wasn't just me. Possibly the most humbling thing about it was being thanked by other people for doing it. If you want to be taken seriously, don't include absolute condescending shite like what you've bolded. You've met the real thing here - someone who suffered unduly and felt so bad for others he tried, and still does, to let all know how evil and corrupt UC is. Why would I stop now I'm employed? And why haven't you started? Just because it worked for you? So fucking what? You're outnumbered.

Yesterday's words can do the rest of my talking. And anyone else who hasn't seen it, is welcome to peruse. This Walkman poster's experience, to be as nice as possible about it, is simply not representative of the experience we all should be concerned about (and you'd have to be some cunt to judge it by who it works flawlessly for; benefit systems should be judged by their failures, as should we as a society)

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,76195.0.html

Blue Jam

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 06, 2019, 07:51:25 PM
Jesus Christ. It's like arguing with my ex gf. I'm not defending anything you turnip. I'm giving a plausible explanation of why people vote Conservative - or at least more plausible than the suggestion that most people are uncaring sociopaths.

I actually went out of my way to explain this by repeating it twice, and it still didn't sink in with some of you. I shouldn't be surprised by now I suppose, but it still manages to astound me.

I was going to type out a post in your defence yesterday, then saw how you explained yourself twice and people still didn't get it, and that made me glad I didn't bother.

To anyone who actually read your post properly it should be blindingly obvious that you're not advocating voting for the Tories, the problem is the usual Biggy obsessives who are missing him and looking for another throat to angrily jump down.

For what it's worth I think both you, SWP, and Dr Rock are right here:

SWP: You only have to look at how many people still buy into the "Chaos with Corbyn" rhetoric to see that some voters still consider the Tories "a safe pair of hands" in comparison, a party who probably won't do anything too radical and probably won't be as chaotic. It doesn't matter that No Deal Brexit is a pretty radical move and that Johnson's government is the most chaotic in living memory, a lot of voters are just blinkered to anything other than immigration and Brexit and really buy into the idea that Corbyn will give us full-on Marxism.

Dr Rock: Yes, the Tories have a reputation as the party who allow people the opportunity to work hard and enjoy the fruits of their hard work, while Labour have a reputation of being the party who take hard-earned cash from Hard-Working Families and give it to entitled lazy scroungers. It doesn't matter that the Tories actually make cuts in public spending and raise taxes for the poor to give money back to the rich in the form of taxes and handouts, and those wealthy people they stick up for are still essentially scroungers, in the minds of these people rich=hard-working and poor=lazy.

Dr Rock: The idea that voting Tory is an aspirational move that makes people feel a bit posh- I've mentioned many times before the fact that I grew up in a small village in a deprived area where most people voted Labour, and that a small number of families there were very outspoken about voting Tory despite being exactly the kind of people the Tories actively despise. These people were outspoken because they were wearing their beliefs like a badge of superior social class.

Anyway, lay off SWP or at least learn to read posts properly before losing your rag.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: Replies From View on November 07, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
I think it's because the argument you're making is pointless.  You've got it into your head that we here lefties need it patiently explained to us that people vote Tory because they are ill-informed and not very politically engaged, rather than outright cunts.

But at no point have we ever not known this.  Yet you think you're dropping truth bombs and blowing our minds.

I see this a lot on here: any form of disagreement is either some kind of 'truth-bombing' or some low level form of trolling. I just had a different opinion to you. I explained it very carefully but you still didn't get it. I did this without swearing at any one or using crap memes. That is literally it. Pls see the patient post above.

Paul Calf

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 06, 2019, 07:51:25 PM
Jesus Christ. It's like arguing with my ex gf. I'm not defending anything you turnip. I'm giving a plausible explanation of why people vote Conservative - or at least more plausible than the suggestion that most people are uncaring sociopaths.

I actually went out of my way to explain this by repeating it twice, and it still didn't sink in with some of you. I shouldn't be surprised by now I suppose, but it still manages to astound me.



Wait a minute.

"Tories have managed to hoodwink people into voting against their interests," is your point?

Mind blown.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: NJ Uncut on November 07, 2019, 12:43:03 PM
Please see my first hand experience reported in the thread I'm about to link, yesterday, which in terms of time served absolutely demolishes yours, and was powerful enough for me to get on the Victoria Derbyshire show to cadge an apology from Gauke, who admitted it was failing in many respects (it wasn't quite a blanket apology, and was more to me, but I was careful to frame the failings as system level faults). I had the sheer fucking balls to go public and you know what I found?

It wasn't just me. Possibly the most humbling thing about it was being thanked by other people for doing it. If you want to be taken seriously, don't include absolute condescending shite like what you've bolded. You've met the real thing here - someone who suffered unduly and felt so bad for others he tried, and still does, to let all know how evil and corrupt UC is. Why would I stop now I'm employed? And why haven't you started? Just because it worked for you? So fucking what? You're outnumbered.

Yesterday's words can do the rest of my talking. And anyone else who hasn't seen it, is welcome to peruse. This Walkman poster's experience, to be as nice as possible about it, is simply not representative of the experience we all should be concerned about (and you'd have to be some cunt to judge it by who it works flawlessly for; benefit systems should be judged by their failures, as should we as a society)

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,76195.0.html

what apology?

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-minister-says-no-need-14129278

Quote from: Paul Calf on November 07, 2019, 01:14:42 PM
Wait a minute.

"Tories have managed to hoodwink people into voting against their interests," is your point?

Mind blown.

He didn't say it wasn't a basic observation but maybe he felt he ought to make it anyway because you guys do tend to err towards the negative and esoteric and don't always give the impression that you've considered the blindingly obvious.

NJ Uncut

Quote from: BlodwynPig on November 07, 2019, 01:19:22 PM
what apology?

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/fury-minister-says-no-need-14129278

Yeah he's a cunt. If I was a total narcissist I could be happy I myself got an apology and an agreement it wasn't working, but he clearly didn't believe it was more than a freak occurrence.

Speaking of unemployment, why can't the ministers for the DWP stay in a job?

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Re: UC, here's my thoughts - just as there's a strong tendency in the right-wing press to pretend everyone on benefits is living the life of riley, at the bookies every morning/watching chat shows on their 50 inch TV, so there's an equal tendency in the left-wing press to behave as though everyone on UC is literally on the brink of starvation. The media as a whole tends toward hysteria. It sells papers; it drives traffic. The reality (for most people) probably lies somewhere between the two. Most people on benefits are neither living it up nor dying in a corner.

Now, there are obviously nonetheless cases where the latter is true. In those instances, if the papers really are a fourth estate and not just a money-printing business, they have a moral duty to report on them. At the same time, there's a corresponding duty to help people understand that most people are navigating the system just fine. A. Because the people on the ground sorting out the payments deserve the recognition. And B. It actively discourages people from using the system because people come away with the impression that adequate help isn't available.

Personally speaking, there's not a day that goes by where I don't thank my lucky stars I was born in the UK. I think it's amazing we have a benefits system at all because, if you're unemployed in places like China/South America/India, you're pretty much left to your own devices - and no one is going to bother to report your plight either.

chveik

Quote from: Blue Jam on November 07, 2019, 12:56:59 PM
Anyway, lay off SWP or at least learn to read posts properly before losing your rag.

I'm sure the cunt can defend himself.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: chveik on November 07, 2019, 01:55:08 PM
I'm sure the cunt can defend himself.

Your parents must be really proud of you.

Replies From View

Quote from: Chuck Armstrong on November 07, 2019, 01:26:12 PM
He didn't say it wasn't a basic observation but maybe he felt he ought to make it anyway because you guys do tend to err towards the negative and esoteric and don't always give the impression that you've considered the blindingly obvious.

Sorry yes we should keep on typing out the blindingly obvious every few pages so that we're not perceived as a cult.  Cheers for that.

Why not look a little further to see that CaB is a tiny selection of people who broadly agree in their non-mainstream outlook and it is refreshing for being this.  It doesn't need to continually calibrate its discourse for the same centre-right readership as the Guardian.  And it's good that it doesn't need to.  You have everywhere else on the internet to fill that particular gap if you want it.

chveik


Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on November 07, 2019, 01:44:53 PM
Re: UC, here's my thoughts - just as there's a strong tendency in the right-wing press to pretend everyone on benefits is living the life of riley, at the bookies every morning/watching chat shows on their 50 inch TV, so there's an equal tendency in the left-wing press to behave as though everyone on UC is literally on the brink of starvation. The media as a whole tends toward hysteria. It sells papers; it drives traffic. The reality (for most people) probably lies somewhere between the two. Most people on benefits are neither living it up nor dying in a corner.

Now, there are obviously nonetheless cases where the latter is true. In those instances, if the papers really are a fourth estate and not just a money-printing business, they have a moral duty to report on them. At the same time, there's a corresponding duty to help people understand that most people are navigating the system just fine. A. Because the people on the ground sorting out the payments deserve the recognition. And B. It actively discourages people from using the system because people come away with the impression that adequate help isn't available.

Personally speaking, there's not a day that goes by where I don't thank my lucky stars I was born in the UK. I think it's amazing we have a benefits system at all because, if you're unemployed in places like China/South America/India, you're pretty much left to your own devices - and no one is going to bother to report your plight either.

In many countries, such as most of the rest of Europe, the benefits system is far more reasonable than the UK.

Where is the evidence that most people on benefits are doing ok and "navigating the system just fine".

Paul Calf

Food banks and streets filled with the homeless seem to suggest that our benefits system isn't working at all.

Dr Rock

Or all the thousands of people who have died/committed suicide after being cheated out of their disabled benefits by lying cunts ATOS.

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on November 07, 2019, 02:34:26 PM
In many countries, such as most of the rest of Europe, the benefits system is far more reasonable than the UK.

In Spain, you're entitled to 70% of your final salary for a third of the length of time you've been employed.  But you're entitled to nothing if you leave a job voluntarily.  Not really sure what happens if you've never worked.  It's a proper safety net that gives you time to find a new job, while allowing you to continue roughly with the same kind of life as before, pay your bills and so on.  If you have children, they are more generous.

Quote
Where is the evidence that most people on benefits are doing ok and "navigating the system just fine".

As many have already said, it's OK if you have the savings to survive six weeks before getting your first payment.  Back in the late 90s, before minimum wage I guess, I used to take home a whopping £106 a week after tax, of which £60 went on renting a room in a houseshare, £25-30 on shopping (not allowing for such luxuries as toilet roll, obviously), and the rest for "savings/emergency".  If I'd lost six weeks of pay, I'd have been fucked.

Johnny Yesno


Blue Jam

...and you're missing titbo and enjoying this too much...

chveik

don't be disingenuous, you're the only one here mentionning biggy.

Buelligan

That's a very bizarre thing to say, Blue Jam.  Really is.  I don't know about anyone else but I care deeply about this issue.  That's it.

As far as titbo goes, I liked him very much for years, used to get on well with him and enjoyed interacting with him.  It was only when he started excusing nazis (the Charlotteville thread) that I began to wonder whether I could remain an uncritical friend of his.  I never enjoyed watching his decent into frothing right wing madness, I found it genuinely sad and I do miss the old funny titbo but he left a long time ago.  That other one, the one that replaced him, I'm really glad he's not here any more.

pancreas

The climate denial made me physically sick. Anyway, we probably shouldn't speak ill of the departed.

I hope mook is coming up for parole soon.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Blue Jam on November 07, 2019, 03:09:52 PM
...and you're missing titbo and enjoying this too much...

And I diagnose armchair psychology disorder in this poster.

Blue Jam

I'm not sure what to diagnose here, a lack of self-awareness, a defective sense of irony or rank hypocrisy. Or all of the above.

Anyway, call me a "Tory cunt" too if you like. I'll be voting SNP, but whatever.

Buelligan

That's a bit strong!  I don't think you're a tory cunt at all, not at all, but I do think you're quite mistaken on this.

Blue Jam

Oh if you say so, Buellers, whatever.

You know why so many people, myself included, usually stay away from the politics threads? Because we find them sneering and hostile and full of people who would rather twist people's words or put words in their mouths and brand them than consider any shades of grey, and would prefer not to try and see something from another person's point of view when it's just easier to label anyone they disagree with "cunts".

It's pointless discussing anything in these threads.

bgmnts

I kinda miss the biggidybiggidybiggidybiggidybiggytitbo

Blue Jam

Biggy and SWP are calm and polite, at least. I'd rather discuss politics with either of them than with anyone who is going to be wilfully obtuse reading someone's posts just so they can find an excuse to call them a cunt.

Buelligan

Quote from: Blue Jam on November 07, 2019, 04:49:02 PM
Oh if you say so, Buellers, whatever.

You know why so many people, myself included, usually stay away from the politics threads? Because we find them sneering and hostile and full of people who would rather twist people's words or put words in their mouths and brand them than consider any shades of grey, and would prefer not to try and see something from another person's point of view when it's just easier to label anyone they disagree with "cunts".

It's pointless discussing anything in these threads.

Sorry BJ, have to go to work, am late.  Hope all is OK.