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Lib Dems - the thread

Started by king_tubby, November 07, 2019, 09:58:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

falafel

Quote from: Buelligan on November 11, 2019, 05:51:12 PM
it would cost Labour nothing if unimaginable, impossible amounts of time and money to persuade all the people who want to vote Labour in constituencies, like Cheltenham, up and down the country, to go out on polling day and vote Labour rather than continuing to prop up the LDs (who continue to enable the tories).

...because it's kind of a sociological, cultural issue, not just one of individual personal responsibility and action

Ferris

Quote from: Buelligan on November 11, 2019, 05:51:12 PM
Yes, I too know Cheltenham very well (though perhaps for other reasons).  It's not about wasting resources at all, it would cost Labour nothing if all the people who want to vote Labour in constituencies, like Cheltenham, up and down the country, go out on polling day and vote Labour rather than continuing to prop up the LDs (who continue to enable the tories).

Yup, fair point but I don't know that it would cost 0, and anything spent in the seat above that amount is probably not going to move the needle so could be considered wasted because there are higher leverage seats where those resources would go further.

It's all a crappy downstream effect of the FPTP system. Tactical voting is an absolute scourge because suddenly it's not enough to vote for who you want (ie the whole idea of the thing), you have to consider game theory and the vote of the idiot in the booth next to you.

Buelligan

As I see it, some loud-mouthed alien-dad once browbeat his best friend into believing the truth about tactical voting for the centrists, now all the dads nod along.  It's bullshit that maintains the status quo and keeps the Labour votes at home or in the pockets of the tories.  It's a swindle, stop buying it.

thugler

Quote from: Buelligan on November 11, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
As I see it, some loud-mouthed alien-dad once browbeat his best friend into believing the truth about tactical voting for the centrists, now all the dads nod along.  It's bullshit that maintains the status quo and keeps the Labour votes at home or in the pockets of the tories.  It's a swindle, stop buying it.

It's literally doing the opposite of that. It's maximising the impact of your vote in a deeply flawed electoral system. Pretending it's not plays into the hands of the tories and helps them to win many more seats than they would if the left vote was not split. It's not a centrist thing to believe, it works equally across the political spectrum and if we got 30-40% of voters to go along with it we could prevent a tory majority, which is more important than purity. I want us to change the system so we don't have to do this any more, but that's the system we have for now.

Buelligan

So, how's it been working out, this tactical voting?  It's been going on a fair old while, how's it delivering?

Nothing at all to do with purity, everything to do with stopping this scam continuing to deliver tory enablers.

chveik

tactical voting is shit for cunts

pancreas


thugler

Quote from: Buelligan on November 11, 2019, 06:32:40 PM
So, how's it been working out, this tactical voting?  It's been going on a fair old while, how's it delivering?

Nothing at all to do with purity, everything to do with stopping this scam continuing to deliver tory enablers.

People haven't been doing it in large quantities. Look at marginal seats where tories won narrowly over lib dems or labour, and realise they wouldn't have if just 30% or so of the others had voted tactically.

What's the best result there? Voting labour regardless and coming third or getting a tory out? Pretty straightforward to me.

New folder

Quote from: pancreas on November 11, 2019, 06:40:05 PM
This has gone viral with NINE likes.

The excitement! Although personally I prefer the pink floyd one

Buelligan

Quote from: thugler on November 11, 2019, 06:52:21 PM
People haven't been doing it in large quantities. Look at marginal seats where tories won narrowly over lib dems or labour, and realise they wouldn't have if just 30% or so of the others had voted tactically.

What's the best result there? Voting labour regardless and coming third or getting a tory out? Pretty straightforward to me.

I don't want to argue with you, to my mind, continuing with the way things have always been is no way to go about change. 

As I said, in my original post on this, we don't know how many of those people who stay at home because they think they have no chance (and they're not going to vote LD) would have voted Labour if they thought there was a point, we don't know how many of those who voted LD (tactically) would prefer to have voted Labour. 

Continuing to push this tactical voting catechism, not acknowledging that constituencies change, politics change, the issues change, everything changes but acting like these seats never can and they can never be won, is not just foolish.  It's perpetuating the tories' hold on power and abandoning hundreds of thousands of potential Labour votes.

Replies From View

If those thousands of voters who never vote decided to turn up at the polling station to tactically vote Lib Dem that would be really bad.

New folder

The Lib Dems have ex-Tories and Blairites right in their midst.  The ones that were undermining and sabotaging the Labour party for years. The ones who would prefer anybody but a socialist Labour to win the election. Does anybody really think that these ghouls would espouse "tactical voting" for the benefit of anybody but themselves?

Buelligan

Jolly good question.

Quote from: Replies From View on November 11, 2019, 07:06:05 PM
If those thousands of voters who never vote decided to turn up at the polling station to tactically vote Lib Dem that would be really bad.

You say it would be bad but I for one would welcome our lovely new skills wallets.

Replies From View

Quote from: Buelligan on November 11, 2019, 07:17:48 PM
You say it would be bad but I for one would welcome our new skills wallets.

It pluralises so well doesn't it.

Ferris

Is it "skills wallets"? Or "skills wallet"?

"Wallet" has lost all meaning. What a strange word. Wallet.

Buelligan

Call it a small kangaroo if it helps you visualise the thing. 

Dr Rock

Isn't it sexist? Do ladies have wallets? They have purses as far as I know.

Buelligan


Zetetic


Replies From View


thugler

Quote from: Buelligan on November 11, 2019, 07:03:04 PM
continuing with the way things have always been is no way to go about change. 


That is absolutely not what this is.

Left and leftish people's votes have been split and that's allowed the tories in. Yes things can change but are not going to all of a sudden. We have to do this to have a chance this time.

Buelligan

Like I said, I don't want to argue with you but, given that the LDs, Swinson herself has gone into coalition with the tories before.  And given that she's categorically ruled out a coalition with Labour, why do you think that a LD MP will serve better than a tory one?  Isn't it better just to vote for what you believe in?  To light a candle in the darkness?

Quote from: Replies From View on November 11, 2019, 07:31:47 PM
Especially after Brexit.

Used as sick bags in extremis.  A mere wallet could never fulfill such a task.


Replies From View

Quote from: New folder on November 11, 2019, 07:37:11 PM
skwallets


I'm not sure these Terminator films are getting closer to the point.  Why do they all end up making the exact same metal skellingtons?



Anyway, back on topic:  Sicks Wallets

king_tubby

They've locked their account now, but the Lib Dem PPC for Thurrock doesn't appear to be very nice.

https://twitter.com/KevinMPMcNamara

Not supposed to lock if you're a blue tick are you?

king_tubby


holyzombiejesus

Libdems came 4th in his potential constituency with a measly 798 votes. Those 798 votes would have meant a Labour victory over the tories though, so whilst things are obviously more complicated now, there are little glimmers.

king_tubby


Famous Mortimer

Quote from: thugler on November 11, 2019, 06:52:21 PM
People haven't been doing it in large quantities. Look at marginal seats where tories won narrowly over lib dems or labour, and realise they wouldn't have if just 30% or so of the others had voted tactically.

What's the best result there? Voting labour regardless and coming third or getting a tory out? Pretty straightforward to me.
Have the Lib Dems ever pulled out of an election to help a party to their left win? Have they ever suggested people vote Labour to keep the Tories out of a particular seat?

Dr Rock

More importantly, do we know if people who would prefer to vote LibDem ever vote Labour to keep the Tories out because the LibDems have no chance in their constituency? I suppose some must.