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Wallace and Gromit post-Peter Sallis

Started by Replies From View, November 09, 2019, 10:51:50 AM

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Replies From View

After Peter Sallis retired, a chap called Ben Whitehead took over Wallace-voice duties for most adverts and computer games.  Those TellTale Adventure Games from about ten years ago used him; his efforts were perhaps passable in that (at best), but Sallis remained as Wallace's voice for high-profile projects (like the World of Invention series), and I remember thinking at the time that Wallace and Gromit wouldn't survive in any meaningful form after Peter Sallis died.

But this advert has just come out, featuring Ben Whitehead as the voice of Wallace:  https://youtu.be/GyfBGZWOUzE

What do you reckon?  My first impressions are very good, but in all honesty that's not an enormous amount of dialogue to go on.  I'm assuming that they haven't sampled Sallis' voice for any of the grunts and exclamations.  But for the first time I'm thinking some post-Sallis Wallace and Gromit could feasibly be made, without necessarily thinking they should.

And I suppose the final question is how would you feel if some 30 minute Wallace and Gromit shorts were made without Sallis' involvement?  Would it just be wrong?  Does 'A Matter of Loaf and Death' show that they've run out of good Wallace and Gromit stories to tell anyway?

idunnosomename

Nick Park was interviewed on radio4 a couple of weeks ago and he seemed keen for them to return but didn't mention Sallis.

I mean they are his after all. He was very lucky to get Sallis to do the script for A Grand Day Out which despite the length of the credits he essentially did by himself.

Loaf And Death isnt bad. The Aliens powerloader reference seems more on the nose than The Terminator ones but I still like how crazy it all gets for what is basically a Christmas Day cartoon.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I didn't much care for A Matter of Loaf and Death when I saw it, but I felt the same about Wererabbit on first viewing and enjoyed that more the second time.

Wallace and Gromit has the same problem as Star Wars for me: Regardless of their actual quality, the new ones can never live up to the nostalgic appeal of the originals. With that in mind, I'm not sure if replacing Sallis would even be an issue.

Alberon

Everyone's going on about deepfaking faces, but the same could be done with voices. Use all of Sallis' Wallace dialogue and then meld it to a new voice actor's performance.

The new voice seems to work pretty well, but, as Claude says, nostalgia will mean any new Wallace and Gromit will never match the early ones for me.

Replies From View

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on November 09, 2019, 01:38:09 PM
I didn't much care for A Matter of Loaf and Death when I saw it, but I felt the same about Wererabbit on first viewing and enjoyed that more the second time.

Wallace and Gromit has the same problem as Star Wars for me: Regardless of their actual quality, the new ones can never live up to the nostalgic appeal of the originals. With that in mind, I'm not sure if replacing Sallis would even be an issue.

I suppose the originals are infused with nostalgic appeal, but I loved 'A Grand Day Out' and 'The Wrong Trousers' for their animation and storytelling when I first encountered them, and was disappointed when 'A Close Shave' arrived in 1995 because I sensed a change in production method that took away some of the attention to animation detail that made the first two so perfect to me.  'A Close Shave' tries to do slightly too much story-wise, and takes certain shortcuts that reduce the opportunities for subtle humour.  It also lacks any moments of characters just sitting and doing very little that allow the animator to revel in the opportunities brought by the plasticine itself.

While 'A Close Shave' ought to sit within the same place in my mind on a nostalgic level, I never felt it held up to 'A Grand Day Out' and 'The Wrong Trousers', even though it only came two years after the latter.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if they were willing to risk more careful, slow-paced sequences and a loving attention to animation detail that would warrant that slow pace, Wallace and Gromit could feasibly return to the heights of 'The Wrong Trousers'.  Whereas the movie-making methods that brought us the original Star Wars trilogy are irrevocably behind us.

peanutbutter

Yep, A Close Shave has never matched up for me either. Were Rabbit being feature length allowed it to stand apart a bit more from the first two and as a result I significantly prefer it to A Close Shave tbh.

Matter of Loaf and Death is due a rewatch, my memory of seeing it at the time was just being a bit baffled by the tone of it all.

Twit 2

Surprised they could fit him in the envelope.

Twed

The new voice is a really good replica. What it will never bring is creativity. Peter Sallis invented a lot of Wallace's personality through his voice. An impressionist will never have the freedom to be creative (because people will hate him for it) and it's unlikely that he will have the same spark that Peter Sallis had that added to the overall magic luck spell that anything new needs to become a beloved classic.

Captain Z

I just wonder how they are going to replace Gromit's voice when Brian Blessed dies.

greenman

Quote from: Replies From View on November 09, 2019, 02:06:47 PM
I suppose the originals are infused with nostalgic appeal, but I loved 'A Grand Day Out' and 'The Wrong Trousers' for their animation and storytelling when I first encountered them, and was disappointed when 'A Close Shave' arrived in 1995 because I sensed a change in production method that took away some of the attention to animation detail that made the first two so perfect to me.  'A Close Shave' tries to do slightly too much story-wise, and takes certain shortcuts that reduce the opportunities for subtle humour.  It also lacks any moments of characters just sitting and doing very little that allow the animator to revel in the opportunities brought by the plasticine itself.

While 'A Close Shave' ought to sit within the same place in my mind on a nostalgic level, I never felt it held up to 'A Grand Day Out' and 'The Wrong Trousers', even though it only came two years after the latter.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if they were willing to risk more careful, slow-paced sequences and a loving attention to animation detail that would warrant that slow pace, Wallace and Gromit could feasibly return to the heights of 'The Wrong Trousers'.  Whereas the movie-making methods that brought us the original Star Wars trilogy are irrevocably behind us.

I would say actually a lot of Wrong Trousers success was down to that kind of mundane mixture of nostalgia and melancholy the setting had, this strange eternal northern 50's were we never get to see anyone but the three leads. I would say A Close Shave didn't pull that off quite as well, you have the same setting but its obscured rather more by the plot.

That again I think you could argue the series was never really about a formula and more about trying something new each time and not just in terms of taking different film references, A Grand Day Outs strange whimsy shifting to the above in Wrong Trousers shifting into larger scale broad comedy in Wererabbit which has definitely grown in my affections since release.

By comparison A Close Shave and Load and Death are more looking to follow the lead of the prior release.

Jasha

The charm of Day Out is you can see it's obviously been made on a beg steal or borrow shoestring, Trousers benefits from a larger budget allowing Park to fill out ideas that he couldn't do before then by the time you get to Close Shave and the feature films it's almost as if there was too much budget available and are over complicated. Having said that I thoroughly enjoyed the Shaun the sheep films and find them endearing in the same way Day Out is.

Rich Uncle Skeleton

Shaun the sheep was great (the first film not seen the others) worth it all just for the scene where everyone screams in (i think) the hair salon ?

Problem I had with Curse Of The Wererabbit was , even for Wallace and Gromit, it went a bit far in that Wallace was morphing into this big creature , then dies and comes back to life at the end of the film got the feeling I did with the Simpsons film when I saw it, could have been fine staying relatively small but took it too far (yes , I know even in a world where a penguin is a criminal harnessing the power of some mechanical trousers)

I get the same thing about nostalgia, it's like anything coming back after a long hiatus (Wallace and Gromit, Arrested Development, Still Game - the three TITANS) it'll never be the same but Loaf And Death is still very funny in the same homely way.

Plus the line "curse that balloon! And curse that prevailing south westerly, they'll be there in no time!" is brilliant.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: Rich Uncle Skeleton on November 09, 2019, 08:02:48 PM
Problem I had with Curse Of The Wererabbit was , even for Wallace and Gromit, it went a bit far in that Wallace was morphing into this big creature , then dies and comes back to life at the end of the film got the feeling I did with the Simpsons film when I saw it, could have been fine staying relatively small but took it too far (yes , I know even in a world where a penguin is a criminal harnessing the power of some mechanical trousers)
Precisely!

Also, Hutch the rabbit was so blatant an attempt at making another Shaun the sheep that it comes across as a bit obnoxious. As I said though, I liked the film a lot more on second viewing.

beanheadmcginty

Has anyone ever accused Nick Park of copying Inspector Gadget? Gromit is remarkably similar to Brain. Better, but very very similar.

Jittlebags

Think there was a Viz article where Wallace invents a wanking machine. The closing speech bubble went "cracking toss Grommit."


Twed

Can we just agree not to show the Lenny Henry one in this thread. None of us need that.

Thomas

My partner and I were discussing W&G's Post-Sallis Syndrome just the other day. I adore all the films, really, but I do especially love those first two. My absolute favourite is 'A Grand Day Out', for its fuzzy, tiny-scale feeling, and the fact that it's set entirely at night. The ultimate cosy thing. Almost feels like you're the only person in the world privy to it. Wonderful music.

Quote from: greenman on November 09, 2019, 05:38:29 PM
I would say actually a lot of Wrong Trousers success was down to that kind of mundane mixture of nostalgia and melancholy the setting had, this strange eternal northern 50's were we never get to see anyone but the three leads. I would say A Close Shave didn't pull that off quite as well, you have the same setting but its obscured rather more by the plot.

That's what I like about those first two films. Even as a child I slightly preferred them to 'A Close Shave', but I couldn't put my finger on why. Perhaps it was the broadening of the world with another speaking character - this populating of Wigan, however, was used to fantastic and funny effect in the great Were-Rabbit, and I do still love 'A Close Shave' anyway (poor Gromit. Fantastic motorbike chase). I like Wendoline, and the brief romance, with its swelling strings, is weirdly touching. The first two films just have their own distinct atmosphere for the absence of other characters. I was excited to watch 'Loaf and Death' live, as it were, when it came out in 2008, but even the simple fact of its newness means it doesn't occupy my heart in the same way. The murdered baker Bob (named after writer and K9-inventor Bob Baker, of course) is referenced as far back as 'The Wrong Trousers', I think.

It's still great, but a supreme nostalgia infuses those first three. I remember watching them repeatedly on fuzzy VHS tapes recorded off the telly, complete with the lovely BBC idents of the day. I'd still be thrilled to see new films, and Ben Whitehead is actually very impressive in that new advert. I'd try to put aside the obvious temptation to compare and just enjoy the thing. If the characters left the north of England I'd be concerned (the Moon notwithstanding). I've not seen any of the Shaun the Sheep films (but the kids' series is great, full of heart), which I look forward to rectifying.

Finally, I can't discuss W&G without praising the incredible train scene in 'The Wrong Trousers'. Amazing. I also love Chicken Run thanks bye

idunnosomename

Quote from: beanheadmcginty on November 10, 2019, 05:17:49 PM
Has anyone ever accused Nick Park of copying Inspector Gadget? Gromit is remarkably similar to Brain. Better, but very very similar.
he started making a grand day out in 1982, a year before Inspector Gadget came out. I think Sallis recorded the lines in 82/3? Anyway it might not have been finished until '89 but it just shows what an achievement it was.

Nick Park has an incredible creative mind it's just he's SO BORING when interviewed. The Fast Show "just a tiny amount" sums it up. But yeah all the props to him for what he created.

All of the half hour shorts are masterfully paced, from set up, intrigue, to big showdown. And scenes like the train chase in Wrong Trousers - the direction there is incredible. And there are so many good jokes in such a short time as well. There's no nostalgia - these things really are masterpieces of story telling, animation and comedy.

Watch the train sequence now, think of how every shot is composed, and also appreciate there's at least three big belly-laughs gags there too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8T8bStabq0

Thomas

It really is stunning, and somehow features a pistol being fired at Gromit without feeling jarring or inappropriate. The 'spare track' thing is inspired. Julian Nott's music plays such a role in all the films.

I've recently rewatched the first three for the xth time; now to make tea and revisit 'A Matter of Loaf and Death'.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Is Flushed Away worth a watch? I'm not one to get all purist, but Aardman working in CGI feels a bit wrong.

idunnosomename

yes that there's a REAL HANDGUN in a Christmas family animation really is something. but it really does add a sense of danger and make Feathers a real criminal. I love how Gromit takes off the lampshade once he's been disarmed.

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on November 10, 2019, 09:39:47 PM
Is Flushed Away worth a watch? I'm not one to get all purist, but Aardman working in CGI feels a bit wrong.
it's not great. it's very oh look how fucking british the voice actors are for the mums and dads hugh grant etc. like a lot of these things there's a couple very funny jokes but mostly it's just... fine.

it was only done in CG because they simply couldn't handle all the water effects. allegedly.

"The Pirates! In an Adventure with Scientists!" is a better big-budget voices-you-know romp. again there's only a few really funny jokes in it. but the rest is better to watch, partly because it's nearly all shot stop-motion

Replies From View

Quote from: idunnosomename on November 10, 2019, 09:08:28 PM
Nick Park has an incredible creative mind it's just he's SO BORING when interviewed. The Fast Show "just a tiny amount" sums it up. But yeah all the props to him for what he created.

Aardman animator Merlin Crossingham references this in 'A Grand Night In: The Story of Aardman' without mentioning The Fast Show at all!  He pretty much just repeats the Fast Show sketch verbatim to describe the animation process, including "just a tiny amount" which he says several times!

I wish I could find a clip or give you a timecode for it within the documentary, but I would need to rewatch it to do that.  It's worth checking out in its entirety anyway if you are into Aardman.

idunnosomename

also interesting Pirates! made 123m on a 55m budget and got its planned sequel cancelled, but Early Man only made 54m on a 50m budget

No wonder they made a Shaun sequel when the first made 106m on a 25m budget. comes from not needing to pay for the voice "talent" you see

Replies From View

#23
Quote from: Rich Uncle Skeleton on November 09, 2019, 08:02:48 PM
Problem I had with Curse Of The Wererabbit was , even for Wallace and Gromit, it went a bit far in that Wallace was morphing into this big creature , then dies and comes back to life at the end of the film got the feeling I did with the Simpsons film when I saw it, could have been fine staying relatively small but took it too far (yes , I know even in a world where a penguin is a criminal harnessing the power of some mechanical trousers)

Did you know that the main storyline of 'Curse of the Were-Rabbit' was partly based on the 1950s version of 'The Fly'? 

The original plot needed Wallace and the cheese-eating rabbit to be recombined at the end to restore them to their previous selves, just like in 'The Fly'.  But then the producers decided that they didn't want to lose the cheese-eating rabbit character they'd come up with (and felt audiences would be sad that he no longer existed), so they changed the plot so that Wallace merely needed to get a whiff of some cheese to be restored.

This decision was made while animation was already underway, resulting in some costly post-production work.  Originally, Wallace was to be revived by the cheese, but still be part-rabbit and an additional sequence would see him recombining with the cheese-eating rabbit at the end of the film.  He was therefore originally animated with rabbit ears for that post-revival scene in the tent, instead of with his own human ears which the film now needed.  Rather than re-animate the sequence from scratch they decided to replace his rabbit ears with normal Wallace ears using CGI.  A huge amount of work (and money) as the large bunny ears originally concealed parts of Wallace's head as he whirled around.  On the DVD the original version of that scene can be seen; it may be sitting around online by now.

Nobody seemed to mind that a cheese-eating rabbit would surely starve in the wild, though.  In my view they should have gone with the original idea.


Edited to add:  the Were-Rabbit deleted scenes are here if you want a gander:  https://youtu.be/kzJqPKCVy5o

idunnosomename

See I love how Nick Park took a big-budget kids movie and made it have a plot point that directly references a David Cronenberg body-horror film and no one really notices

Well I mean yeah, the 50s one, which ends with the "help me, help me" bit. But Park seems to be a fan of 80s action blockbusters judging by his Terminator/Aliens nods

madhair60

No mention of the truly joyous Arthur Christmas?

Replies From View

Quote from: madhair60 on November 11, 2019, 01:17:43 PM
No mention of the truly joyous Arthur Christmas?

Not yet; would you like to start us off?

Twed

Arthur Christmas' title is a pun on the phrase "Ah, for Christmas!"