The Nolan Batmen

[madhair60]

Mask Of The Phantasm, the spin-off movie from the animated series.

One of the key differences is that unlike most cinematic adaptations, it's not made by people who are slightly embarrassed to be making a Batman film

Fuck me I forgot Mask of the Phantasm. Yes, it's perfect.

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Why don't you make your grave and die in it?

Because I am too weak to make it and too fat to die in it.

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I have limited familiarity with the Batman comics material, having only read 'Dark Knight Returns', 'Killing Joke', and some golden age stuff, but I was wondering if there is a consensus among those who are much more knowledgeable of the comics material as to whether any of the Batman films reach the level of quality of the best Batman books? Flicking through the The Long Halloween now and it seems as if there's something that really works on the page tonally that I haven't quite seen in any of the films.

For me, Batman doesn't work quite as well in the medium of live action cinema as he does on pages of a visual novel or a comic book. In terms of adaptions, I would rank the animated series (including Mask of the Phantasm) and the video games (Arkham Asylum, Arkham City) above all of the existing movies to date. Not that I hate the Batman movies, some of them definitely have certain appeal, but none have quite managed to successfully merge realism with the underlying silliness of the whole dressing-up-as-a-bat-and-fighting-colourful-costumed-villains premise. The only option seems to be to descend fully into camp.

I'm not saying it's impossible, in fact I would certainly like to see some aspiring director's take on Grant Morisson's "Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth" – it has great potential to become a visually interesting abstract piece of cinema, if done well. Not holding my breath though.

[colacentral]

I think they need to be stylised to an extent, hence why the stylised art decor look of TAS works. It treats the world seriously without disappearing up it's own arse too.

I think for that reason the tone and look of Burton's Batman films are what works best, but what lets them down are the weak stories.

I'm not keen on any of the Nolan films anymore. At the time it was great to see well made mature Batman films after years of the character being thought of as a joke, but they're mostly a bit too pretentious and messy for me now, particularly the sequels. I think Begins holds up the best because it tells a coherent story, which the next two failed to do.

[greenman]

I think they need to be stylised to an extent, hence why the stylised art decor look of TAS works. It treats the world seriously without disappearing up it's own arse too.

I think for that reason the tone and look of Burton's Batman films are what works best, but what lets them down are the weak stories.

I'm not keen on any of the Nolan films anymore. At the time it was great to see well made mature Batman films after years of the character being thought of as a joke, but they're mostly a bit too pretentious and messy for me now, particularly the sequels. I think Begins holds up the best because it tells a coherent story, which the next two failed to do.

Begins was rather stylised itself of course, Gothham being rather Blade Runnerish and the Scarcrow's visions being a bit more expansive. I didn't mind The Dark Knight being more straight forward but I think that was more effective as a one off, Rises would IMHO have been better off being a bit more stylised again.

The main issue with Batman to me seems to be that it demands a rather more focused plot than say Marvel and its never really gotten that, all the Nolan films I'd say biting off a bit more than they could chew.

[marquis_de_sad]

I thought Begins was ok, but the origin story of Batman is boring. Or at least, it's ok as background detail, but it's dull as the focus of a story. I much preferred The Dark Knight to Begins, especially as Ledger's Joker is infinitely more enjoyable to watch than Neeson's mopey Ra's al Ghul.

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I think for that reason the tone and look of Burton's Batman films are what works best, but what lets them down are the weak stories.

Yes, agree with that

I thought Begins was ok, but the origin story of Batman is boring. Or at least, it's ok as background detail, but it's dull as the focus of a story. I much preferred The Dark Knight to Begins, especially as Ledger's Joker is infinitely more enjoyable to watch than Neeson's mopey Ra's al Ghul.

Batman Begins was Nolan's only movie where the city actually felt somewhat like Gotham rather than just another bland variation of New York. Unfortunately Liam Neeson's tedious tirades and shit acting are smeared across the script like ... well, shit. Qui-Gon Jinn should've killed his career.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Ra's claat.

[lipsink]

It's crazy what a surprise Batman Begins was when it came out. The first hour or so we're basically watching a non-chronological psychodrama and it's also  first Batman film to be about Batman/Bruce Wayne rather than whatever scene stealing villain is appearing that week. Now, sure it looks a bit tame and stylised but that's because The Dark Knight went even further and so have superhero films in general.

[dissolute ocelot]

Nolan's interminable, episodic Batmen movies would be excellent if chopped up and marketed as a Netflix series, where instead of having shitty third acts they'd just have episodes of variable quality. The fact that they don't work as movies indicates how ahead of his time Nolan was.

[Jim Bob]

Nolan's interminable, episodic Batmen movies would be excellent if chopped up and marketed as a Netflix series...

More like chopped up in a food dispenser!

Ooooooooohhhhh.

[Twit 2]

The error Nolan made in trying up create a "dark grown up character" is that Batman is a kids' character for kids.

"Ah, but in my Beano film Dennis rapes." Yeah, but it's still Dennis the Menace, you stunted tit mistake.

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"Ah, but in my Beano film Dennis rapes." Yeah, but it's still Dennis the Menace, you stunted tit mistake.

He'll get retroactive consent in the third film anyway.

Would Walter the Softy be a incel do you reckon?  Or gay.


As long as Gnasher, Gnipper and Rasher all appear as groping CGI abominations I don't really mind.




DING

[beanheadmcginty]

It's the inevitable result of Walter the Softy discovering viagra.

[checkoutgirl]

For me, Batman doesn't work quite as well in the medium of live action cinema

To paraphrase Alan Moore, that's probably because superheroes were designed to entertain children. You can dress it up all you like but you're still left with people dressing up in costumes fighting crime and that's a child's fantasy. 

[Monsieur Verdoux]

When you think of Musidora in Les Vampires, you tend to think more 'antiquated' than childish. It's old-fashioned pulp

[H-O-W-L]

I think the Nolan Bat series is complete arse, frankly. Mask of the Phantasm and 1989 are the only film adaptations I really need even if 1989 strays from the character's typical shite quite heavily.

[H-O-W-L]

Almost as laid back as the State and Federal government.

"It looks like somebody is holding one of our largest cities hostage. Should we, you know, do anything?"
"Naaah, have you seen the paperwork you need to do to mobilise the army? I'm sure their police force will sort it out eventually."

This is because Nolan read the basics of the No Man's Land saga in the comics (Gotham becomes isolated) and didn't read the rest of the sentence before turning it into a plot (it becomes isolated because of an earthquake and a massive outbreak and a crime wave that causes the US govt, influenced by supervillainous bastards, to lock the city down and turn it into a giant prison).

[greenman]

To paraphrase Alan Moore, that's probably because superheroes were designed to entertain children. You can dress it up all you like but you're still left with people dressing up in costumes fighting crime and that's a child's fantasy.

That's why I preffer the Russo's Marvel films to Nolan's Batmans, the former for me feels like it acknowledges the basic nature of the material but looks to bend it towards moral tests and realistic characterisation were as the latter seems like its more focused on trying to obscure it behind creating a realistic setting.

Well that and I think the Russo's are better entertainers when it comes to action/humour.

[TheBrownBottle]

It's crazy what a surprise Batman Begins was when it came out. The first hour or so we're basically watching a non-chronological psychodrama and it's also  first Batman film to be about Batman/Bruce Wayne rather than whatever scene stealing villain is appearing that week. Now, sure it looks a bit tame and stylised but that's because The Dark Knight went even further and so have superhero films in general.

I actually preferred the more stylised world of Batman Begins - Gotham feels more 'comic book'; The Narrows, Arkham, the monorail etc are more hyper-real.  TDK feels like real world Chicago; it doesn't look like the same universe that BB was set in.

I'm aware that TDK is generally seen as the better film (and I really enjoy that too), but I have a preference for BB.  This is bolstered by what you said re the surprise of it when it came out. 

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

I quaintly remember when the teaser for The Dark Knight came out with the bank robbery at the beginning. It seemed so groundbreaking to do a gritty "realistic" take on a comic book villain like the Joker. Obviously that has been run straight into the ground ever since. (Still an excellent movie though.)