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FPS NIGHTMARES

Started by Lemming, November 17, 2019, 12:23:16 PM

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Jim Bob

Quote from: Mister Six on December 07, 2019, 04:43:55 AM
I'm pretty sure that Fallout used prerendered 3D Models for its characters.

Now I don't know what to believe.  Is Lemming delivering factoids?

Lemming

#151
Had to go and check, because I definitely remembered seeing a clay Deathclaw ages ago. Here it is:


Here's some clay models for the talking heads and a description of how it works, though having no knowledge of graphic design or 3D modelling, I can't make anything out of it. Not sure if they use clay models, or the clay models are just a reference for 3D modellers:

QuoteAfter the team worked out exactly what it was after, a sculptor made a clay head that fit the bill. From there, the artists took the completed head and carefully studied it to see what parts of the face needed to be animated most in order to create a realistic final image. Using a Faro Space Arm and the VertiSketch software, the team digitized the head, and then used theLightWave modeling software to do necessary geometric corrections. Next, texture maps were created in Photoshop and laid onto the modeled head. Finally, the art team began working on the animation.

Wonder if they still have the clay models lying around anywhere. I would sell a kidney for the Deathclaw.

Jim Bob

I too would sell your kidney for an original deathclaw model.

Mister Six

Yeah, looks like the models were used as the inspiration/guidance for prerendered 3D models. I'm guessing because it was easier to find experienced physical model makers at that time than experienced CGI designers.

Who's the bald bloke? Don't remember him. One of the cultists?

H-O-W-L

The original Fallout used a combination of drawn-over sprites and 3D render work, yes. All the talking heads are 3D renders, as are item icons and the like, but the character sprites are draw-overs of existing renders. The clay models were used both for scan-ins and for artist reference, and they also were for Doom, as mentioned on the last page.



https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Models

Lemming

TekWar is mind-blowing. There's a huge open world but I have NO IDEA where to go or what to do, beyond Shatner telling me to "get to midtown". Also several office workers have walked into me and exploded. Cops don't mind when "TekLords" start shooting at me, a fellow police officer, in the middle of the street, but when I draw my gun to defend myself, they scream at me to drop it and open fire. Despite all that, there's definitely something unique and appealing to the game. I'll try to finish it.

Quote from: Mister Six on December 07, 2019, 05:36:08 PM
Who's the bald bloke? Don't remember him. One of the cultists?

Could be a really early basis for Morpheus, perhaps? Same evil nose going on.

Mister Six

Perhaps! I never noticed he had such a silly little moustache before.

VelourSpirit

This is wonderful, I love reading about these old games. Really looking forward to 1999. Love the look of those, something about the graphics and aesthetics PC games reached in that year I just love. 1999-2004 really, dunno what it is, most would say they're ugly but they're great to me.

Mister Six

Quote from: H-O-W-L on December 07, 2019, 09:00:38 PM
The original Fallout used a combination of drawn-over sprites and 3D render work, yes. All the talking heads are 3D renders, as are item icons and the like, but the character sprites are draw-overs of existing renders. The clay models were used both for scan-ins and for artist reference

So they made clay models, 3D-scanned them to make the 3D CGI models used for the sprites, pre-rendered the animation to actually produce the sprites, then drew over those sprites by hand to make them look more organic?

Lemming

William Shatner's TekWar (1995)



   

(This is BuildGDX, which lets you run Build engine games with better mouselook and higher resolutions. I'll probably use it for Duke3D and Blood too.)

STORY: Why have me explain it in text, when you could have Shatner explain it in FMV?

MUSIC: IT'S LIKE ONE TRACK THAT JUST LOOPS FOREVER

THE VERDICT: Another Build engine game and another Capstone Software game. For whatever it's worth, I've never read TekWar, no idea if familiarity with the source material would cause any of this to make sense.

I'm just going to list a lot of insanely cool features in this game before complaining about it, because this has so many innovations and ambitious things that you might not expect from a fucking Capstone game with Shatner in it.

The first act of the game is several non-linear levels which you can play in any order you want. The objective in each is to stop a criminal TekLord, someone who sells Tek. These all take the form of multi-map open world areas, different for each target.

You spawn in a subway each time, and must then actually wait for a train in real-time. A 3D train travels around the track and stops at each platform, briefly opening its doors, and you have to board and then ride to the correct stop. You can get off at any stop you want, though, and you'll find a large city area with many building interiors to check out.

You're a cop and your mission is to arrest these TekLords, not kill them. Civilian casualties are totally unacceptable, but not only that, ANY casualties are frowned upon. You have a stun gun, and the optimal way to clear each mission is to evade enemies, stunning when you have to, never employ lethal force, and finally stun the TekLord.

It's pretty amazing that a game from 1995 is encouraging non-lethality like this, something you'd more commonly associate with something like SWAT 4. But it gets even better - Shatner briefs and debriefs you in FMVs before and after each mission. The game actually determines how well you've done, and Shatner debriefs you accordingly. If you shoot civilians, he'll berate you and threaten to put you "BACK... ON ICE!". If you didn't shoot civilians but did shoot the TekLord and/or several armed criminals, he'll give you a lukewarm briefing where he wonders "WHYYOUCOULDN'T... TAKE HIM ALIVE?". If you complete the fully non-lethal route, he'll congratulate you on a job well done.

The build engine really works for this game, allowing for semi-convincing city areas with towering skyscrapers and many interiors with vertical areas to reach through elevators. Moving cars too! You can leap onto the cars to ride around on them, yeehaw.

Okay, now the bad stuff:

At absolutely NO point do you have ANY idea where to go. Shatner's briefings are vague enough that he might as well just say "go find the TekLord". With like six subway stops, you've got a huge search area, and the TekLord could be absolutely anywhere. Even if you find the right stop, finding the TekLord is like finding a needle in a haystack, or a Capstone game in a list of good FPS games.

The AI is absolutely manic. People fire on you for no reason, cops stand by and watch approvingly as you get shot, but freak out and shoot you if you try to defend yourself. There's also the matter of some civilians WALKING INTO YOU AND EXPLODING. Is this meant to happen? Is it from the book? Is this what Tek does to people?

The appeal of the non-lethal route is scuppered by the fact there's no logical way to do it. Everyone shoots you, half the time from places you can't even see. There's nothing you can do. Your only hope of a non-lethal run is to play the level by slaughtering everyone in sight, explore until you figure out where the TekLord spawns, then replay the level and sprint past people as they empty hundreds of bullets into you, rush over to the TekLord and stun him. Which is stupid.

Shooting is actually pretty awful in this game, so it's a good thing you're meant to be some kind of Starfleet pacifist person. But even the stun gun doesn't work properly.

Another bad point, if you've played the game you knew this was coming. After you've gotten all the TekLords, you have to enter the "Matrix". I couldn't do it, the game ended here for me. It's a huge nonsensical maze and I don't know what to do. I love Daggerfall, so I'm not a stranger to huge nonsensical mazes, but this is just insane. You have to fly around getting your ass kicked constantly, look for hidden switches, aaagh. I might try it again but I'll probably just watch the ending in a walkthrough or something.

FINAL RATING: One of the most ambitious games we've come across so far. Annoying, because it's inches away from being something really special. It's a collection of impressive achievements and great ideas that doesn't really include a good game. Even the Matrix level is fucking cool conceptually and visually. It's hard to rate it. Don't get me wrong, it's a bad game and I don't think there's any reason to actually play it, but you can't bash Capstone for willing to be this experimental. Let's settle for Disappointed Debrief Shatner instead of a rating.



Next game: Hexen (1995)

H-O-W-L

Quote from: Mister Six on December 08, 2019, 09:28:45 PM
So they made clay models, 3D-scanned them to make the 3D CGI models used for the sprites, pre-rendered the animation to actually produce the sprites, then drew over those sprites by hand to make them look more organic?

I'm not sure what the flow of your phrasing means here, so I'll just say, yes.

The way it works is: Talking heads are based on 3D rendered scan-ins of the clay models as far as I can tell, and animated in a 3D animating program (or perhaps photomanipulated, the details are unclear), whereas the little sprites and item icons are sprite pictures of 3D models that aren't actually in the game. Hopefully that makes sense.

This is how the original Sims worked, also; only the little Sim cunts were actually 3D, everything else was a picture of a model. Same principle for the RE1/2/3/0/Remake backgrounds.

Jim Bob

Quote from: Lemming on December 09, 2019, 02:06:13 AM
Another bad point, if you've played the game you knew this was coming. After you've gotten all the TekLords, you have to enter the "Matrix". I couldn't do it, the game ended here for me.

No, I didn't know that was coming.  Back in 1995, as a 13 year old lad, I never made any progress in this game whatsoever.  As you mentioned in your review, the game doesn't tell you where you're supposed to be going and only a little of what you're actually supposed to be doing.  Still, that didn't seem to matter to me much at the time.  I was content to load the game up and walk around the same few open areas, getting shot at and cooing at the incredible lifelike graphics (which they were, for their time at least).  I've always had a soft spot for games which try to recreate believable worlds for the player to explore.

Exploring the environments of TekWar really captured a feeling that I was playing a simulation of real-life, one which just so happened to be inhabited by a bunch of of murderous, gun toting junkies.  So basically; an uncannily accurate simulation of St. Louis, Missouri.

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

Quote from: H-O-W-L on December 07, 2019, 09:00:38 PM
The original Fallout used a combination of drawn-over sprites and 3D render work, yes. All the talking heads are 3D renders, as are item icons and the like, but the character sprites are draw-overs of existing renders. The clay models were used both for scan-ins and for artist reference, and they also were for Doom, as mentioned on the last page.



https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Models

That is a most bodacious mullet being rocked there, it's beautiful. Business at the front, party in the back.

Jerzy Bondov

Lemming, have you ever heard of PO'ed? Could have the worst name of any FPS ever made. It came out on 3DO in 1995 and was ported to PlayStation a year later. It's about a chef who gets stuck on an alien planet. Looks bollocks.

Jim Bob

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on December 10, 2019, 10:59:30 AM
Lemming, have you ever heard of PO'ed? Could have the worst name of any FPS ever made. It came out on 3DO in 1995 and was ported to PlayStation a year later. It's about a chef who gets stuck on an alien planet. Looks bollocks.

I remember that!  It had walking arses that farted on you.

Mister Six

Quote from: H-O-W-L on December 09, 2019, 05:22:29 AM
I'm not sure what the flow of your phrasing means here, so I'll just say, yes.

The way it works is: Talking heads are based on 3D rendered scan-ins of the clay models as far as I can tell, and animated in a 3D animating program (or perhaps photomanipulated, the details are unclear), whereas the little sprites and item icons are sprite pictures of 3D models that aren't actually in the game. Hopefully that makes sense.

This is how the original Sims worked, also; only the little Sim cunts were actually 3D, everything else was a picture of a model. Same principle for the RE1/2/3/0/Remake backgrounds.

But Fallout is all 2D sprites, albeit ones based on pre-rendered 3D models. None of it is "proper" 3D, unlike old-style Sims and Resi.

Lemming

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on December 10, 2019, 10:59:30 AM
Lemming, have you ever heard of PO'ed? Could have the worst name of any FPS ever made. It came out on 3DO in 1995 and was ported to PlayStation a year later. It's about a chef who gets stuck on an alien planet. Looks bollocks.

Wikipedia offers a ringing endorsement:

QuoteMaximum summarized the game as the "worst 3D action title ever seen on any format, with the exception of PlayStation Crime Crackers and some early PC public domain games (indeed, the graphics and gameplay are very reminiscent of such past atrocities)." They elaborated that the 3D environments constantly glitch, the floors are untextured, the attempts at humor are feeble, enemies show heavy pixelation even at medium distances, and the controls are extremely poor.

We've got to see this. Since PS1 emulation has been deceptively easy so far, I'll try the PS1 version when we get to 1996.

king_tubby

This is great thread, thanks Lemming.

Lemming

Hexen: Beyond Heretic (1995)



   

STORY: The two surviving Serpent Riders (from Heretic) move to conquer a new dimension. They commit genocide, as usual with these knobheads, and the Serpent Rider Korax installs himself as the new ruler. The Serpent Riders are pretty consistent, though, so just like in Heretic, they've managed to somehow leave the one person who can stop them alive. That's you, obviously.

MUSIC: Not as memorable as Heretic but still pretty good.

THE VERDICT: Heretic is often accused of being a Doom clone. That's essentially true even if its a Doom clone that, in my view, surpasses Doom. Raven were clearly aware of that when they set out to make Hexen, because this is trying something quite different.

At the start of the game, you choose one of three heroes to play of, each representing an archetypal RPG class. Fighter, Cleric and Mage. I was the Cleric this time. Each class has three unique weapons, plus one unique super weapon that is assembled in parts over the course of the game. Each of these classes feels and plays differently. Three weapons can feel restrictive, especially compared to the 9 or 10 or whatever that Corvus carries in Heretic, but replaying the game as different classes helps you appreciate how the weapon roster has been divided up between the three heroes to offer a viable class in each case.

Hexen appears similar to Heretic at first glance. You're in a dark fantasy world overrun with minions of a Serpent Rider, and there's locked doors and strange obstacles barring your path. The similarities are thin in reality, though, because Hexen takes a totally different design philosophy. After leaving the starting area, you find yourself in the first of several hubs, a room from which various portals lead to side areas.

Hexen's strength and its weakness are basically the same thing. The strength is that you'll complete complex puzzles across several different maps. Your actions on one map might change something on another map, or in the hub itself. The weakness is that you have NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT ANYTHING DOES. PULL THE SWITCH IN THE ICE WORLD. DID IT OPEN A DOOR IN THE FIRE WORLD? DID SOMETHING IN THE HUB MOVE? DID A STAIRCASE YOU DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED GET LOWERED? WHO KNOWS MATE.

The hubs are reasonably small and the game plays in segments, so you never have a dauntingly massive area to search through, but it still just gets fucking annoying when you're walking around the Swamp of Despair or whatever the fuck they call it for the tenth time, trying to find out what a switch you pulled half an hour ago did.

There's a newfound focus on platforming, and it works. You have to walk across a precarious ledge as the room around you collapses into a pit of lava. You've got to slide across dangerous ice as it shatters and reveals deadly pitfalls below. You have to cross a thin bridge made of light. It's all cool, and it's not really like anything in Heretic, which was mostly more Doom-like.

The visuals are great. I mentioned before that I really like the Heretic/Hexen setting and it's on top form in Hexen. Moody castles overlook putrid swamps, charred wastelands stretch out into the distance beneath red skies with vaguely threatening mountains in the distance, ruined temples hold armies of hostile minions. Cool.

Similarly, weapon and enemy visuals are outstanding. The Heretic enemy lineup is more varied and more iconic, especially those red bat things, but Hexen's got some good enemy design. Magic weapons look great. Check out the second screenshot up there, the one with the scary corpse bridge. I'm casting magic at absolutely nothing just because I wanted to show you the sprite where your hands start glowing red when you shoot fire.

The superweapon, when you get it, is also awesome for every class. The Cleric's is Wraithverge, a staff which fires a swarm of screaming ghosts that shred enemies from within. Naturally, they can also come back and attack you under certain conditions, which leads to you screaming like a pussy in your computer chair as the spooky sprites fly right at the screen and your speakers play a weird "woOoOOOOoOOooo" noise.

Finally, the best thing in the game. Like Heretic, you have items, and one of those items is a Maulotaur. You know, the strongest enemy from Heretic, the one that just fucks you up. You can spawn a friendly Maulotaur who will fight enemies for you. Outstanding.

FINAL RATING: I got through this quicker than I expected. Dreading Hexen 2 a little less now. Overall it's a good game, but the lack of direction it gives the player really hurts the game rather than helps it, and they should have committed more strongly to the puzzles-over-combat approach they were taking. There are still pure combat areas full of enemies, and all that does is highlight the weakness of the game compared to Heretic. Hexen gets 3.5 Spooky Ghost Allies out of 5.


Next game: The Terminator: Future Shock (1995). Might be a while longer than usual since I have some new non-FPS NIGHTMARES games to play first.

Jim Bob

I owned both Heretic and Hexen as a teenager, but was never able to get into either (my dislike for traditional fantasy tropes is likely the biggest reason).  In the end, I just took some scissors to the Hexen box art and stuck it to my wall with blu tack, because it is simply awesome to look at.

madhair60

I love Heretic and Hexen, the latter more for its ambition than anything else. "Heresiarch" is such a fucking cool word though.

Hexen 2 and Heretic 2 are both really good shit, but the latter isn't first-person.

Jim Bob

Quote from: madhair60 on December 11, 2019, 09:17:16 PM
Hexen 2 and Heretic 2 are both really good shit, but the latter isn't first-person.

Heresy!

druss

Looking forward to Future Shock. I remember playing it a lot as a kid but can't remember if it was any good.

Edit: Fuck, didn't know it was Bethesda.

Phil_A

Does Bethesda's original Terminator game from 1991 count for this thread? It is an FPS of sorts, albeit one that plays more like very crude early 3D "open world" games like Mercenary.

Jim Bob

I'm planning on playing the 1991 Terminator game on one of my gaming streams at some point (it's on my PC ready to go and everything).  I'd still like to see it covered by Lemming in this thread though.

Lemming

Quote from: Phil_A on December 11, 2019, 10:41:04 PM
Does Bethesda's original Terminator game from 1991 count for this thread?

Sure. At some point I'll try to go back and look at interesting games from pre-1992, since there seem to be quite a few proto-FPS games before Wolfenstein 3D.

purlieu

When I first got a PC (Christmas '98) I got Sim City and Tomb Raider with it... enjoyed Tomb Raider and worked my way through the rest through to Legend. But otherwise I never really got into gaming, I suppose getting music and graphic design software on my computer killed off the gaming aspect as I went into 'making albums' mode.

A friend of my mum's copied me a disc of pirated games, however, and from that I did spend a few weeks playing the shit out of Chasm: The Rift, which I have very fond memories of, so I'm looking forward to you reaching that.

Quote from: Lemming on November 29, 2019, 03:19:47 PM(and again in Heretic 2 but that's not an FPS, it's like a weird platformer thing - pretty good, if you've never tried it before).
That was on the same disc too, I think, I only got partway through it but really enjoyed it.


Anyway, enjoying this thread, even as a non-gamer.

Jim Bob

Lemming, I'd definitely like to see you cover the 1990 Terminator DOS game, as I played it on my gaming stream yesterday and couldn't make head nor tails of it (in particular, I was unable to get a car to accelerate).  I'm sure you could figure it out and I'd like to know what it's like.

Lemming

I'll give it a shot! I'm generally okay at running DOS games and DOSBox at least allows key rebinding to circumvent crazy control schemes, so something like driving a car should be mappable to WASD or arrow keys, unless the devs have done something truly insane.

What's fucking me over is trying to get early 16-bit Windows games working, of which we've got several coming up. I was attempting to install Killing Time in advance a few days ago and getting that to run (without using the pre-made Steam or GOG versions, which I probably should have done) was like a game in itself.

Blue Jam

Quote from: purlieu on December 13, 2019, 04:33:21 PM
Anyway, enjoying this thread, even as a non-gamer.

You are me in 1993 reading Digitiser.