Author Topic: We need to talk about Behringer...  (Read 871 times)

We need to talk about Behringer...
« on: November 26, 2019, 11:49:30 AM »
This morning I stumbled upon a YouTube video for Behringer's new MiniMoog clone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lx-9mLB1V0&list=LLbWs_cZBG9LURfC0RfMgtEA&index=2&t=0s

Behringer has been cloning a number of classic synths over the past couple of years now including the SH-01, TB-303 and ARP Odyssey to name a few. Now they have got round to releasing what for many is the holy grail of 20th-century synthesis.

Has anyone had any experience with these things? Surely a £300 Minimoog isn't going to be much cop? I remember reading that the connections on their SH-01 clone weren't up to scratch, or the MIDI didn't work properly or something and it wouldn't be a surprise given the prices these things are being knocked out at.

In my limited experience, you generally get what you pay for and if you go budget you will usually be making sacrifices, either in build quality, feature-set or something else. Of course, that's not to say that great music can't be made on the cheap, and at £300 this is by no means cheap.
 

Better Midlands

  • I'm not internationally known
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2019, 12:39:59 PM »
People seem to really like their stuff and praise the emulations, the only argument I've seen is that the build quality might not hold up for 40 years etc like an original SH101 etc.

The price and maintenance on the original synths seems to have gone through the roof, I think the clones look like fun.


FerriswheelBueller

  • Golden Todger or
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • ...and I really do mean that.
    • I am antsy for baseball in the off-season.
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2019, 01:12:09 PM »
I used 2 Behringer UZ400s in my pedal board when I was touring because I was poor, and I liked that they were a bit cheap and shit. Plus feeding one fuzz pedal into another fuzz pedal used to irritate sound guys at venues massively which felt like a win to me.

That is my only experience of Behringer. Seemed alright to me.

hamfist

  • Furry Asscandy
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2019, 01:16:56 PM »
This morning I stumbled upon a YouTube video for Behringer's new MiniMoog clone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lx-9mLB1V0&list=LLbWs_cZBG9LURfC0RfMgtEA&index=2&t=0s

Behringer has been cloning a number of classic synths over the past couple of years now including the SH-01, TB-303 and ARP Odyssey to name a few. Now they have got round to releasing what for many is the holy grail of 20th-century synthesis.

Has anyone had any experience with these things? Surely a £300 Minimoog isn't going to be much cop? I remember reading that the connections on their SH-01 clone weren't up to scratch, or the MIDI didn't work properly or something and it wouldn't be a surprise given the prices these things are being knocked out at.

In my limited experience, you generally get what you pay for and if you go budget you will usually be making sacrifices, either in build quality, feature-set or something else. Of course, that's not to say that great music can't be made on the cheap, and at £300 this is by no means cheap.

I watched that vid last night, as YouTube pushed it onto my timeline and I rather like the look of that. I'd not want to be an early adopter, would wait a bit for any issues to become known, but I think it looks and sounds rather good.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2019, 01:30:56 PM »
I used 2 Behringer UZ400s in my pedal board when I was touring because I was poor, and I liked that they were a bit cheap and shit. Plus feeding one fuzz pedal into another fuzz pedal used to irritate sound guys at venues massively which felt like a win to me.

That is my only experience of Behringer. Seemed alright to me.

O yes! I've got a Super Fuzz by them and, set on Fuzz 2 whilst coupled with my Rat, makes the worlds worst noise. I love it.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2019, 02:44:19 PM »
People seem to really like their stuff and praise the emulations, the only argument I've seen is that the build quality might not hold up for 40 years etc like an original SH101 etc.

The price and maintenance on the original synths seems to have gone through the roof, I think the clones look like fun.

I've seen bits of SH101 and TB303 clone review videos and didn't think they sounded bad at all, but I don't have much of a frame of reference.

I used 2 Behringer UZ400s in my pedal board when I was touring because I was poor, and I liked that they were a bit cheap and shit. Plus feeding one fuzz pedal into another fuzz pedal used to irritate sound guys at venues massively which felt like a win to me.

That is my only experience of Behringer. Seemed alright to me.

The pedals have had something of a reappraisal recently, unsurprising given how many of the circuits are nigh-on identical to their forebears - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApJZa8yCMCQ&feature=emb_title

I watched that vid last night, as YouTube pushed it onto my timeline and I rather like the look of that. I'd not want to be an early adopter, would wait a bit for any issues to become known, but I think it looks and sounds rather good.

Sound advice. As I mentioned, there was an issue with their cloned SH-101 where the first units were shipped faulty but I think a firmware fix was issued pretty quickly.

Full review of the Poly D with pros and cons here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNDwUoGqxDE
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 03:10:17 PM by ArtParrott »

Better Midlands

  • I'm not internationally known
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2019, 04:45:53 PM »
I'm interested to see the user reviews of the Isla Instrument's SP2400 (EMU SP1200 12bit sampler semi-clone) when they release it, incredible amount of anticipation on this.


Rizla

  • That's not another knife - THIS is another knife!
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2019, 05:11:08 PM »
I watched a demo of the Model D, looks amazing for the price. I've been very tempted by the SH 101 clone too - I might get one so I could pair it up with my MC 202, to make programming easier through the keyboard with the CV gate etc. Prices are down to around £250 (1/4 the price of an average used Roland plus you get the mod grip), not seen any on the 2nd hand market yet. In fact, you don't tend to see any of their reissue pedals 2nd hand either. I have the slow gear clone, which is fine, and I'd really like the DC2 dimension clone but they're very elusive. I suppose if something's cheap and useful people tend to hang onto them.

Re quality, the story I heard was that they chuck stuff to market without proper full testing, then bodge fixes throughout the production run, which they can afford to do due to the cheapness of the manufacturing process. Maybe they've got their shit together a bit more now though.

Cloned 808 and 303 look pretty nice too. What to do, get the thing that does the thing that you want and sort of looks the part, but holds no "value" on the used market, or hope a real one falls into your lap at some point? I mean, I got my 202 for £50 years ago, but it's been in and out the repair shop plenty, as has all my old synth stuff. You can end up sinking hundreds into these things.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2019, 05:16:49 PM »
I'm interested to see the user reviews of the Isla Instrument's SP2400 (EMU SP1200 12bit sampler semi-clone) when they release it, incredible amount of anticipation on this.



Don't need it pal. I've already got a Zoom Sampletrak that I don't know how to use.

FerriswheelBueller

  • Golden Todger or
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • ...and I really do mean that.
    • I am antsy for baseball in the off-season.
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2019, 05:42:39 PM »
O yes! I've got a Super Fuzz by them and, set on Fuzz 2 whilst coupled with my Rat, makes the worlds worst noise. I love it.

I have a Big Muff now as my main distortion/fuzz pedal, but it can’t match the old UZ400s for sheer shitty fuzzy quality. It sounded like my guitar was splintering to pieces, and with a tap delay it was great fun (though struggled to cut through mixes).

I got an MXR Blue Box octave fuzz pedal to see if I could replicate the tone, but the nicely made pedals lack some of the grit that made the Behringer pedals so much fun.

McFlymo

  • Pre-"Post Reply" Anxiety
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2019, 07:48:16 PM »
This video review from Loopop is pretty great.

It shows you all the ins and outs of the new Behringer 303 clone, but also pits it up against 3 other versions: The original Roland, a xoxbox and an RE-303. The RE-303 seems to come closest to the original, with the XOX coming a close 2nd. Unsurprisingly the Behringer doesn't quite hold up, but to be honest, it's not a million miles off and is super cheap (£130!!!) is anyone gonna fucking notice the subtle filter differences when you're rinsing the fuck out of their ears with squealy acid lines in a big warehouse?

The answer is, no.

hamfist

  • Furry Asscandy
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2019, 05:08:00 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNqeYrYlW5o

Bloody hell. And here comes another tease - 4 voice Poly D - the vid shows 4 "D"s ? A Moog One clone - the vid capitalises "One" ?

It's like someone fired a synth bazooka.

NoSleep

  • feat. Keith Jarrett and his singing parrot
    • Space Is The Place
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2019, 05:17:50 PM »
Anyone played with any of the Arturia stuff? I've tried their analog drum machine the DrumBrute, which is like a cross between a 909 and an 808 sonically but I found myself slightly frustrated with the insufficient degree of tweakability of each sound; I hate it when the best sound you've found is one where a knob has been turned as far it can go.

The MicroBrute is a decent little analog synth with some nice filters and comparable capabilities to a Minimoog or an SH101. Not tried the MiniBrute but I assume it's a little bit more of the same.

Flouncer

  • See ya on the other side, ya goddamn cracker ass!
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2019, 09:26:50 PM »
Surely a £300 Minimoog isn't going to be much cop?

They've got it up on Thomann now for just under £600, in stock within 6-7 weeks. Really at that price, I'd rather shell out another £150 or so and get a Moog Grandmother (I've had my eye on those for a while) - they look to be much more solidly built and more versatile in terms of patching. The Behringer is still pretty cool though; that demo is awesome. I'm really tempted by the TD-3 too (just under £130 on Thomann)... They're knocking out some incredible stuff at the moment, at prices that are hard to turn down.

McFlymo

  • Pre-"Post Reply" Anxiety
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2019, 09:34:57 PM »
Anyone played with any of the Arturia stuff? I've tried their analog drum machine the DrumBrute, which is like a cross between a 909 and an 808 sonically but I found myself slightly frustrated with the insufficient degree of tweakability of each sound; I hate it when the best sound you've found is one where a knob has been turned as far it can go.

I've a kinda funny story about the DrumBrute.... Sonic State (whose gear reviews are usually excellent) were fairly complimentary on the Arturia Drum Brute, so I went ahead and ordered one. I then waited about 6 months for the feckin' thing to arrive! Played with it and after a couple of days had a similar response to you, NoSleep: I just found the sounds a bit bland and there wasn't much scope with where you could take them. Meanwhile the Roland TR-8, had the classic 808 and 909 sounds, with every knob being able to send midi, as well as usb audio interface capabilities etc. It was just a no-brainer, so I sold the Drum Brute on and bought a TR-8 which I am very happy with!

I also have an Arturia Beat Step Pro, but had an issue with USB connectivity after a few months. Also, I've had some glitchy timing issues with it. Seems the forum is full of people having similar issues, but outside of that, it's a decent wee box.

Glad to hear the Micro Brute is good, though!

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2019, 11:11:18 PM »
They've got it up on Thomann now for just under £600, in stock within 6-7 weeks. Really at that price, I'd rather shell out another £150 or so and get a Moog Grandmother (I've had my eye on those for a while) - they look to be much more solidly built and more versatile in terms of patching. The Behringer is still pretty cool though; that demo is awesome. I'm really tempted by the TD-3 too (just under £130 on Thomann)... They're knocking out some incredible stuff at the moment, at prices that are hard to turn down.

Yeah I think I got it confused with the prices the mono Model D was going for. The Loopop video I linked to upthread said it would be priced closer to a Korg Minilogue XD which is sub-£600 too.

The grandmother is a very different beast though, not to say it doesn’t look like a lot of fun.

Flouncer

  • See ya on the other side, ya goddamn cracker ass!
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 11:46:00 PM »
Yeah, not a direct equivalence by any means, but I've been wanting to get into analog synths for a while and the Grandmother is the one I'm most tempted by... The Korg Odyssey reissues look pretty wonderful too. I think either one would make a pretty good first synth... The only thing that puts me off about the Behringer stuff is the question mark over build quality. I think I'd be inclined to spend a bit more money in the hope that it would stand the test of time better.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2019, 07:40:31 AM »
And as yet unmentioned, in the £600+ bracket there’s the Deepmind 12, which I would probably favour for the extra octaves.

Actually, if someone (Korg) could re-release the Polysix, I’ll take one of those please.

buzby

  • Member
  • **
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2019, 09:33:22 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNqeYrYlW5o

Bloody hell. And here comes another tease - 4 voice Poly D - the vid shows 4 "D"s ? A Moog One clone - the vid capitalises "One" ?

It's like someone fired a synth bazooka.
That was the teaser for the Poly D wasn't it? Despite it's name, it's paraphonic, rather than polyphonic - it has 4 oscillators that can be played as individual notes, but they are still only one voice as they all route into the single VCA and VCF (unlike say a Prophet 5 or CS-80, where each note triggers a seperate voice with it's own oscillators, VCA and VCF) . The ARP Odyssey could do a similar thing with it's two oscillators (ARP called that 'Duophonic'). I suspect the Poly D came about as a result of Behringer's cloning of the Odyssey, and they then applied it to their existing Mono D.

As regards to their general ethos, I'm a bit on the fence - it's good that they are producing affordable analogue synths, but it's easy to make things cheap when you are knocking off existing designs and offshoring your manufacturing (they have their own 'factory city' in Zhongshan)  It's not like they are filling a gap in the market either - the TD-3 is just the latest in a line of 303 clones, Korg had already recreated the Odyssey in conjunction with the co-founder of ARP and Moog had reintroduced the Model D too. It could be argued that they are seeing what is selling and using their vastly lower R&D and manufacturing costs to undercut manufacturers who have doen the groundwork.

Behringer also bought a Chinese semiconductor cloning and fab facility called Coolaudio in 2000 who they use to clone the transistors, ICs and hybrid circuits used in classic effects pedals and synths. Some of Behringer's current (their Sequential Pro One clone) and planned (Oberheim OB-Xa, EDP WASP, Octave CAT, OSCar, and if they have done the Pro One you can bet a Prophet 5 is also in the works)  clones are based on Coolaudio's clones of the classic Curtis and SSM hybrid digital/analogue synth ICs that these were based on.

It was Dave Smith/Sequential who originally commissioned Coolaudio to reproduce the long-obsolete Curtis hybrid synth ICs for his range of synths (something that Doug Curtis's family were not happy about, and Curtis/OnChip have started putting some of their old CEM range of ICs back into production), and the Oberheim recreations he makes in association with Tom Oberheim. Behringer's Sequential and Oberheim  clones in particular are therefore very much sticking two fingers up to the customer who worked with them to have the chips reproduced in the first place. 

Actually, if someone (Korg) could re-release the Polysix, I’ll take one of those please.
The PolySix was based on SSM chips so I'm sure Behringer will be working on that too...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 10:04:12 AM by buzby »

Fisher Goes Berserk

  • Mayhem. Police cars.
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2019, 10:14:46 AM »
Our band is working on some new stuff at the moment, and a couple of weeks ago the engineer we're working with set up a Behringer D in the studio as none of us owns an analogue synth. He spoke of it pretty highly (and he got some amazing sounds out of it), but he said he only expected it to last ten years or so.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2019, 02:32:29 PM »

That's really interesting, and I agree it doesn't seem right that they should be able to capitalise off of other people's talent and hard work and then undercut them on the market.

But I think their business model, such as I understand it could be somewhat flawed. While people will likely flock towards the lower end stuff, Model D, 303 etc, once you get over the £500 mark they're going up against those reissued Korgs and offerings of other higher-end brands. 

I don't think the Deepmind exactly set the world alight when it came out, it will be interesting to see how the Poly D and any other pricier models do when they're released.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2019, 05:05:34 PM »
How does the Poly D compare to the Deepmind 12?  Is it more or less advanced? (synth newbie here so trying to work out the differences, they seem similar in price).

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2019, 09:13:36 AM »
I would think others here would be better placed to answer, but I'll have a go. I think the Deepmind (6 or 12) would be the more advanced, as they're capable of doing a lot of different things and would probably make a really good workhorse in a bedroom studio type environment.

The Poly D is more an attempt to do one thing really well and would be a lot more fun to use in a hands-on way. No menu diving to have to access certain features, just lots of knobs and switches to push and pull.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2019, 09:54:12 AM »
I would like a cheap Prophet 5 knock-off please. I played one in a shop in Tokyo (the lovely Five G in Harajuku) and I really liked how simple but nice-sounding it was. The newer ones have too many buttons and menus for poor old popcorn.

momatt

  • PAPERCLIPS!
    • instagram.com/m0matt
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2019, 09:55:06 AM »
Decent 303 clone for £130.  FUCK YES.

I know that sounds is over-used and done to death, but it will never stop being a lot of fun.

What I do like, is that rather than just being straight clones, they add nice little extra touches.  Nice things like distortion on the 303, or the filter on the 808.  So much fun for fucking about.

The WASP clone looks interesting too.  They're cheeky as hell, but totally giving the people what they want, when Roland are refusing.

Better Midlands

  • I'm not internationally known
Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2019, 10:48:38 AM »
What I do like, is that rather than just being straight clones, they add nice little extra touches.  Nice things like distortion on the 303, or the filter on the 808.  So much fun for fucking about.

That really adds to it, almost essential.

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2019, 02:09:04 PM »
I would think others here would be better placed to answer, but I'll have a go. I think the Deepmind (6 or 12) would be the more advanced, as they're capable of doing a lot of different things and would probably make a really good workhorse in a bedroom studio type environment.

The Poly D is more an attempt to do one thing really well and would be a lot more fun to use in a hands-on way. No menu diving to have to access certain features, just lots of knobs and switches to push and pull.

Thanks for this, useful info.  The Deepmind is probably the one that would be better for me, though the aesthetic and some of the features of the Poly D are tempting...

Re: We need to talk about Behringer...
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2019, 02:38:20 PM »
No worries, but do bear in mind I've not played either of them so I could be talking bollocks.