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We need to talk about Behringer...

Started by ArtParrott, November 26, 2019, 11:49:30 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: the on May 21, 2020, 08:52:45 PM
Massively doubt it. The MC-303 wasn't designed as an authentic recreation of anything, it was a 'groovebox' with some classic/in-vogue sounds in it, real-time control and a sequencer. A new product that was meant to evoke the spirit of the old analogue modules, but little in the way of being an authentic copy of anything.

I was just curious really. Your appraisal is what I thought the general consensus was, but I've seen some people re-appraise them as gritty and raw compared to a DAW. I know it's revisionism in a way.

the

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 21, 2020, 09:02:31 PMI've seen some people re-appraise them as gritty and raw compared to a DAW.

Fucking nora!

buzby

Quote from: the on May 21, 2020, 08:52:45 PM
Massively doubt it. The MC-303 wasn't designed as an authentic recreation of anything, it was a 'groovebox' with some classic/in-vogue sounds in it, real-time control and a sequencer. A new product that was meant to evoke the spirit of the old analogue modules, but little in the way of being an authentic copy of anything.
What he said. The clones that copied the 808 analogue tone generation circuitry have it, like the  AcidLab MIAMI (to an extreme extent, as it seems to have the mod to extend the decay built in) and the open-spurce Yocto does (so it's no surprise the DR8 does, as like their Behringer's 303 clone they have used the open source version as a base, right down  to the external MIDI clock sync bug, it seems)..

Robin Whittle's posts ont hat Analogue Heaven thread I linked to earlier are a good read, He has seen and worked on a lot of 808s, and  posits that it's not a fault per se, just an allowable production tolerance issue. It's not a fault that's developed over time that needs to be repaired, it was something that was there to a greater or lesser extent on all 808s, but on some the tolerances of the components in the oscillator circuit bring it closer to self-oscillation and the tolerances of the resistor and capacitor that control the delay interact to make it more noticeable. He suggests a mod to replace the resistor in the decay circuit with a logarithmic potentiometer so it can be tuned to the owner's liking.

NoSleep

The one thing an MC-303 especially cannot do is successfully emulate a TB-303. Neither can its successor, the MC-505, but at least that looks like they took onboard some user feedback.

The bizarre thing about all those Roland grooveboxes is they are rammed with preset generic sounding music, in the style of genres current at the time, that can't be erased from the memory. They gift you a tiny bit of user memory that can barely fit a whole arrangement of your own, whereas I'm sure most people who bought them had no need for the bland, undeleteable fodder that filled the machines.

I'm sure they'd be a horror for somebody just starting out, so convoluted is the process of making music with them.

the

Funnily enough I was re-reading the Beastie Boys Book earlier, and there'a photo of them in a studio from around the time of Hello Nasty. To my alarm, on the desktop is not only an MC-303 but a Quasimidi Rave-O-Lution 309 :)

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: NoSleep on May 22, 2020, 05:30:42 AM
The one thing an MC-303 especially cannot do is successfully emulate a TB-303. Neither can its successor, the MC-505, but at least that looks like they took onboard some user feedback.

The bizarre thing about all those Roland grooveboxes is they are rammed with preset generic sounding music, in the style of genres current at the time, that can't be erased from the memory. They gift you a tiny bit of user memory that can barely fit a whole arrangement of your own, whereas I'm sure most people who bought them had no need for the bland, undeleteable fodder that filled the machines.

I'm sure they'd be a horror for somebody just starting out, so convoluted is the process of making music with them.

I have any boffins ever swapped the roms for different samples?

Quote from: the on May 22, 2020, 11:24:04 AM
Funnily enough I was re-reading the Beastie Boys Book earlier, and there'a photo of them in a studio from around the time of Hello Nasty. To my alarm, on the desktop is not only an MC-303 but a Quasimidi Rave-O-Lution 309 :)

I wonder if at the time they were used to quickly flesh out something using 'roland sounds' that could then be re-done carefully on the predecessors they emulate. Ironically, channelling some of the original purpose of their predecessors as a musician's practice device rather than a device for creating electronic music.


Cuntbeaks

I know this is deviating a bit, but im itching to buy some hardware to noodle about with. I have nothingnatnthe moment save for a small USB midi controller/keyboard that i had used to mess with Rebirth.

I quite fancied both the Roland JD-XI and the Teenage Engineering OP-1. Both are capable of producing tracks by themselves, which appeals to me and both are very different. I like the portability and 'fun' aspect of the OP-1 and i like the additional grunt and depth that the Roland provides, plus it's a lot cheaper.

Anybody have any experience of these or tips in general.

the

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 22, 2020, 02:03:46 PMI wonder if at the time they were used to quickly flesh out something using 'roland sounds' that could then be re-done carefully on the predecessors they emulate. Ironically, channelling some of the original purpose of their predecessors as a musician's practice device rather than a device for creating electronic music.

My guess would be they were bought on a whim at a music shop (or foisted upon them by an equipment company rep), noodled with for the novelty factor and then shortly thereafter put in a drawer.

The MC-303 had a pretty big impact on the equipment market at the time, not for its capabilities (it wasn't great) but because it sold the idea of buying one little desktop box and, hey presto, you're making entire dance tracks with today's sounds. Obviously this had appeal to the prospective bedroom artist in a time when any home studio would still need to be MIDI hardware based (ie. expensive and complex). The market got saturated with 'dance modules' for a good while.

NoSleep

I think Roland circulated MC-303s to various artists. There's an album (At Home With The Groovebox) featuring Beck, John McEntire (of Tortoise), Pavement, Sonic Youth,  Jean-Jacques Perrey, and others that was put out to demonstrate the MC-303. Maybe the worst track each of the artists has ever released.

NoSleep

Quote from: the on May 22, 2020, 04:32:31 PMThe MC-303 had a pretty big impact on the equipment market at the time, not for its capabilities (it wasn't great) but because it sold the idea of buying one little desktop box and, hey presto, you're making entire dance tracks with today's sounds. Obviously this had appeal to the prospective bedroom artist in a time when any home studio would still need to be MIDI hardware based (ie. expensive and complex). The market got saturated with 'dance modules' for a good while.

I can't imagine it being an entry level piece of gear for anyone. There couldn't be anything less intuitive to make music with.

the

Quote from: NoSleep on May 22, 2020, 05:23:16 PMI think Roland circulated MC-303s to various artists. There's an album (At Home With The Groovebox) featuring Beck, John McEntire (of Tortoise), Pavement, Sonic Youth,  Jean-Jacques Perrey, and others that was put out to demonstrate the MC-303. Maybe the worst track each of the artists has ever released.

I did not know that. Though looking it up, it was to promote the MC-505 (which I remember seeing in Beck's studio in the Midnite Vultures inlay). Interestingly it was put out on the Beastie Boys' Grand Royal records.

Quote from: NoSleep on May 22, 2020, 05:26:03 PMI can't imagine it being an entry level piece of gear for anyone. There couldn't be anything less intuitive to make music with.

Well as I said, 'it sold the idea'. On paper, it could create tracks in one box. But in a module with knobs and dancey sounds (as opposed to something like one of the synth workstations of the time).

famethrowa

I guess the MC came out at a time when 303 hunger was at its peak, I got hold of one and was very underwhelmed by the sounds. Was just the same old U220 type general midi junk we'd suffered through in the early 90s.

ArtParrott

Quote from: Cuntbeaks on May 22, 2020, 04:14:54 PM
I know this is deviating a bit, but im itching to buy some hardware to noodle about with. I have nothingnatnthe moment save for a small USB midi controller/keyboard that i had used to mess with Rebirth.

I quite fancied both the Roland JD-XI and the Teenage Engineering OP-1. Both are capable of producing tracks by themselves, which appeals to me and both are very different. I like the portability and 'fun' aspect of the OP-1 and i like the additional grunt and depth that the Roland provides, plus it's a lot cheaper.

Anybody have any experience of these or tips in general.

I've got an OP-1 and it's great fun, but it is Jack of all and master of none. Synth, drums, sampling & recorder are all good but either flawed through being too digital sounding or having a limited feature set. I paid £450/500 for it second hand about 6 or 7 years ago, fuck paying the prices they're commanding now.

I'm in the same boat though, been looking for some new piece of hardware but there's nothing I can get  that excited about that will fit in the limited space I have.

Ferris

I'm planning on setting up a small studio in a corner of the gaff in the future, so I'm reading all these hardware threads and it is becoming clear to me that I don't know what these crazy box things do. I'm going to have to read about them.

Is an MC-303 intuitive to learn? What is the advantage of it over (say) a copy of FL Studio or whatever?

Bearing in mind I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to recording

NoSleep

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on May 23, 2020, 12:58:43 PM
Is an MC-303 intuitive to learn?

No.

QuoteWhat is the advantage of it over (say) a copy of FL Studio or whatever?

It has no advantages over anything else, even something completely unrelated to music.

popcorn

Yeah I wouldn't touch an MC-303 now unless you're deliberately trying to put weird creative constraints on yourself for some project, or making a YouTube video for retro clickz.

I want a Digitakt.

Ferris

Quote from: NoSleep on May 23, 2020, 02:29:10 PM
No.

It has no advantages over anything else, even something completely unrelated to music.

Ok thank god, I felt like a primitive monkey-man scratching my head at this space-age music thing that fell to earth.

I'll stick to banging on flowerpots with sticks.

I liked my old microKORG. Idiot-proof fun. May buy another for the future studio. Is there a "home studio" thread on CaB? I'd be really interested in opinions on recording mics and software etc. If not, I'll start one I guess.

famethrowa

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on May 23, 2020, 12:58:43 PM
I'm planning on setting up a small studio in a corner of the gaff in the future, so I'm reading all these hardware threads and it is becoming clear to me that I don't know what these crazy box things do. I'm going to have to read about them.

Is an MC-303 intuitive to learn? What is the advantage of it over (say) a copy of FL Studio or whatever?

Bearing in mind I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to recording

The only advantage the MC303 had was having a filter knob. That was something that had disappeared off most popular keyboards pretty much since the DX7, and was a real revelation for us unfortunates who'd learned on sleek black pushbutton digital synths. Nowadays every damn thing has one.

ArtParrott

Quote from: popcorn on May 23, 2020, 02:30:53 PM
I want a Digitakt.

Me too. I think it might have a bit too much horsepower for me though. Have been tempted to pick up a 2nd hand volca samples to see if that scratches the itch.

the

I must say, I'm surprised at how much curiosity for the MC-303 has come up here. Is it going through some sketchy retro reappraisal at the moment? The MC-303 is really just a reasonably naff sound module with some knobs on it (from a time when real time controls had only just started to reappear on electronic instruments).

Roland were just capitalising on the skyrocketing second-hand value of their early 80s modules at the time of the MC-303. It was a product that was trying to catch up with the times rather than being ahead of them. It certainly won't give you anything more than the sounds of the old Roland gear will (and will probably give you a lot less).

the

If you want to start making music but you're trying to work out which equipment to do it on, my advice (and not necessarily anyone else's) would be:

As a starting point, work out 1) which instruments you play (if any - I don't), 2) which sort of sounds do you like to use, and 3) which kinds of structures do you want to make in your songs/compositions. Once you have an idea of this, you can start to make decisions on which equipment will help you to bring these things together.

NoSleep

Had a little bit of a chance to play around with the Behringer RD-8 and it's got some useful additional functions over the TR-808. If you were playing with it in a live situation it handily has mute and solo functions to allow you to do live dub mixes. Also able to add or remove a single (or two) drum in a pattern on the fly for one pass (then it resets for the next). It also has a "probability" function you can adjust for a pattern (as a percentage) which will randomly remove drums from the pattern; quite effective set between 50-90%.

Quote from: ArtParrott on May 23, 2020, 03:31:51 PM
Me too. I think it might have a bit too much horsepower for me though. Have been tempted to pick up a 2nd hand volca samples to see if that scratches the itch.

Digitakt looks lovely.

Volca Sample seems like fun if you're not very musical and happy to just mess about with samples (which is me), especially for the price. I'd imagine it's good for house and techno being step sequencer based.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: NoSleep on May 22, 2020, 05:23:16 PM
I think Roland circulated MC-303s to various artists. There's an album (At Home With The Groovebox) featuring Beck, John McEntire (of Tortoise), Pavement, Sonic Youth,  Jean-Jacques Perrey, and others that was put out to demonstrate the MC-303. Maybe the worst track each of the artists has ever released.

Didn't Peaches use a groovebox (not sure if it was an MC-303 specifically) on some of her stuff?

ArtParrott

Quote from: Better Midlands on May 23, 2020, 04:21:15 PM
Digitakt looks lovely.

Volca Sample seems like fun if you're not very musical and happy to just mess about with samples (which is me), especially for the price. I'd imagine it's good for house and techno being step sequencer based.

I just want a sampler with more features than the OP-1 but that's fairly simple to use. Ive wanted a SP404 for years but from what I see on YouTube they just look like the most uninspiring pieces of kit to play and they seem a tad overvalued.

Quote from: ArtParrott on May 23, 2020, 04:52:56 PM
I just want a sampler with more features than the OP-1 but that's fairly simple to use. Ive wanted a SP404 for years but from what I see on YouTube they just look like the most uninspiring pieces of kit to play and they seem a tad overvalued.

Volca Sample might be a bit too simple for you, It looks on a similar level to the 404 - especially if you can play keys.

Johnny Textface

Quote from: ArtParrott on May 23, 2020, 04:52:56 PM
I just want a sampler with more features than the OP-1 but that's fairly simple to use. Ive wanted a SP404 for years but from what I see on YouTube they just look like the most uninspiring pieces of kit to play and they seem a tad overvalued.

I had an SP404 but sold it after a couple months. Pretty clunky and dated. Also there's a really annoying problem if you play more that two pads while resampling, one just cuts off.  Anyway wasn't for me..

I've been messing about with the Novation Launchkey on IOS. The interesting and fun thing for me is you can import your own loops and then perform with them, adding fx and the like. Also because you can import via Dropbox I can render out my stuff from the DAW and they're immediately available for me to dick about with live. Fun. Does anyone have the hardware version?

Sebastian Cobb

Not really for production but I've got a novation twitch which is fun to mix on but I rarely use it :(

Ferris

Quote from: the on May 23, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
If you want to start making music but you're trying to work out which equipment to do it on, my advice (and not necessarily anyone else's) would be:

As a starting point, work out 1) which instruments you play (if any - I don't), 2) which sort of sounds do you like to use, and 3) which kinds of structures do you want to make in your songs/compositions. Once you have an idea of this, you can start to make decisions on which equipment will help you to bring these things together.

I play a lot of instruments, used to work as a session musician and playing in a band for a few years before realizing I couldn't afford the twin luxuries of both eating food and paying rent doing that.

The allure of these mad noise-box things is that I have no idea how they work so I'd like to get (an idiot-proof) one and figure it out.

buzby

Quote from: NoSleep on May 23, 2020, 04:05:12 PM
Had a little bit of a chance to play around with the Behringer RD-8 and it's got some useful additional functions over the TR-808. If you were playing with it in a live situation it handily has mute and solo functions to allow you to do live dub mixes. Also able to add or remove a single (or two) drum in a pattern on the fly for one pass (then it resets for the next). It also has a "probability" function you can adjust for a pattern (as a percentage) which will randomly remove drums from the pattern; quite effective set between 50-90%.
The Mute/Solo and 'Temporary add step' functions were both features intoduced in the Yocto's firmware It does sound like it's another example of what they did with the X0xb0x for the TD3 of cloning an existing open-source clone.