We need to talk about Behringer...

[the]

I play a lot of instruments, used to work as a session musician and playing in a band for a few years before realizing I couldn't afford the twin luxuries of both eating food and paying rent doing that.

The allure of these mad noise-box things is that I have no idea how they work so I'd like to get (an idiot-proof) one and figure it out.

Well that's a valid approach, but the reason for also considering 2) and 3) in my original post was to assemble some sense of what kind of music you think you'd like to be making. Because if you have an idea of that, it reduces the risk of what you buy not having the right capabilities/workflow for what you want to be creating.

Worth bearing in mind of course that you can rent a device to try it out rather than committing.

Also don't make the assumption that, just because something's hardware, it's gonna propel you more quickly towards making music than software will. Software is a much wider field/more open-ended, but it will lend you more flexibility of workflow than one particular hardware device will.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I play a lot of instruments, used to work as a session musician and playing in a band for a few years before realizing I couldn't afford the twin luxuries of both eating food and paying rent doing that.

The allure of these mad noise-box things is that I have no idea how they work so I'd like to get (an idiot-proof) one and figure it out.

I see a lot of musicians rather than electronic musicians seem to favour things like the akai mpx these days.

[Non Stop Dancer]

As someone who spent years using Cubase then Ableton but then gave it all up for 5 years before coming back to music making with an MPC live I'll say this. I find it much easier to do the initial creative stuff and get ideas up and running on the MPC, but fuck me it's an absolute cunt to flesh out ideas and turn them into finished tracks. Not only that but I frequently find myself wishing I had access to soft synths with their infinite polyphony and mutitimbrality. Yes I could use the MPC in conjunction with a laptop but that would defeat the entire object of using something self contained.

On the other hand I love the thing and find it quite addictive to use.

[Ferris]

I see a lot of musicians rather than electronic musicians seem to favour things like the akai mpx these days.

These look nice and simple for an idiot like me. As much as I like the idea of getting some incomprehensible noise machine I have no handle on operating and figuring it out, I worry it'd just sit in a draw if I couldn't work out a way to "learn" it.

[NoSleep]

I've been getting deeper into the RD-8 and changing some of the settings that are "global" by default to "pattern", so I can have swing (50-75%), tempo (20-240 BPM), step size (1/8, 1/8T, 1/16, 1/16T, 1/32) & probability (0-100%) set for each pattern, i.e. that pattern that sounds good at 140bpm plays at 140bpm when you select it, etc.

One disappointment with the above is that moving from patterns with different step sizes causes a slight hiccup in the tempo, even on something straightforward, like going from 1/16 to 1/32. Fortunately, in that instance, just setting both to 1/16 and doubling up the the tempo of the formerly 1/32 pattern gives a glitch free transition.

Not yet dabbled around with song mode to see if that gives it more backbone in those cases.

[popcorn]

Looking forward to the day you can change firmware using an app on yer phone.

[NoSleep]

Via wireless? That could be a nightmare. Fortunately, in this case you have to hard set the machine to "receive firmware mode".

Mine came with the latest firmware installed; I'm just playing with a few settings that default to global out of the box.

[jonno]

I used to be really into electronic music about 15-20 years ago but sold all my gear when I realised I'd produced nothing of worth and wasn't really getting any joy out of it.

So imagine my surprise, when I had the idea to get an analogue synth to twiddle on during lockdown, looked at what was getting the mentions on the forums and saw that Behringer (of all companies) were making these reissues. Great sounding (and cheap) as they are, none really made me want to get one, just fancied something more up to date having had a bunch of the originals in the past. So I picked up a tiny Korg Monologue and have been having a blast with it, sounds fantastic and the sequencer is addictive, all for just over £200. And it runs on batteries, perfect!

But as soon as I saw that Behringer had added the Korg Mono/Poly to their stable - just knew I'd have to get one. The Monopoly was by far my favourite vintage analogue I'd owned, just something endlessly fascinating about it, great memories of messing around with the chord memory function (every synth should have this!) and cross modulation, it was the one I most regretted selling so definitely going to get one of the Behringers whenever it comes out. Sounds great on the demos, far more interesting sonically to me than the Moog reissues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ6Gd8_qkEM

[buzby]

One disappointment with the above is that moving from patterns with different step sizes causes a slight hiccup in the tempo, even on something straightforward, like going from 1/16 to 1/32. Fortunately, in that instance, just setting both to 1/16 and doubling up the the tempo of the formerly 1/32 pattern gives a glitch free transition.

I noted that in one of my previous posts - it's mentioned in the Gearslutz thread as having been there since the first units shipped in September so they presumably haven't got round to fixing it yet.

So imagine my surprise, when I had the idea to get an analogue synth to twiddle on during lockdown, looked at what was getting the mentions on the forums and saw that Behringer (of all companies) were making these reissues.

Behringer's products are clones, not reissues. Korg/ARP and Moog have made reissues of their own products. Dave Smith has made enhanced recreations of some of his own Sequential models (Prophet 08, Pro 3) and did the OB-6 with Tom Oberheim.

Behringer have seen there is money to be made and are undercutting the original companies or other clone manufacturers though their vastly lower R&D and manufacturing costs. They also own the chip cloning company that some of the other manufacturers rely on for supply, including DSI. An engineer from DSI posted this comment about Behringer's sharp business practices on that specific issue on the Gearslutz forum (where Ulli Behringer also posts)

To my understanding, Cool Audio did not disclose that they were owned by Behringer when we inquired with them directly. That was super great of them

We are actively moving away from using Cool Audio parts now that we know.

Another DSI employee made a post on Gearslutz about Behringer's blatant disregard for IP (which is one of the reasons the company moved from Gemrany to China) which caused Ulli to issue a lawsuit against DSI and 20 members of the Gearslutz forum for defamation, which was eventually thrown out of court.

There was also the unpleasant 'KIRN CorkSniffer' episode from March this year, as an attack at the musician and journalist Peter Kirn, who had been critical of the company's practices (the original video was taken down, but has been re-uploaded here), which included a trademark application of his name to deny him the ability to use it.

But as soon as I saw that Behringer had added the Korg Mono/Poly to their stable - just knew I'd have to get one. The Monopoly was by far my favourite vintage analogue I'd owned, just something endlessly fascinating about it, great memories of messing around with the chord memory function (every synth should have this!) and cross modulation, it was the one I most regretted selling so definitely going to get one of the Behringers whenever it comes out. Sounds great on the demos, far more interesting sonically to me than the Moog reissues.

In the specific case of the Mono/Poly, Korg asked if customers wanted a reissue of it in October 2018, but seem to have got sidetracked with their ARP reissues and never mentioned it again until the summer of 2019. Behringer then jumped in to pre-empt them (they trademarked the 'Monopoly' name in November 2019). I doubt Korg will bother continuing with their version now.

[the]

Funnily enough I was re-reading the Beastie Boys Book earlier, and there'a photo of them in a studio from around the time of Hello Nasty. To my alarm, on the desktop is not only an MC-303 but a Quasimidi Rave-O-Lution 309 :)

Just an addendum to this - later in the book there is a list of various pieces of equipment they've used with a brief summary for each. The Quasimidi is in there:

27. Rave-O-Lution drum machine
This thing is pretty fuckin' cool. I did a live remix of every rap song on Hello Nasty while we were mixing the record. I have a cassette tape of it. Wanna hear it sometime?

[NoSleep]

I noted that in one of my previous posts - it's mentioned in the Gearslutz thread as having been there since the first units shipped in September so they presumably haven't got round to fixing it yet.

On the TR-808 you have to hard set the step size for the machine (called pre scale) by a selector switch and only gives you the choice of 1/8T, 1/16T/, 1/16 & 1/32. So it's beyond how the 808 could function in that respect. They added a fifth choice, 1/8, on the RD-8, which would only be useful if you want to swing (again, something the 808 doesn't do) 1/8th notes, which you could  also do by halving the tempo whilst set on 1/16, but the RD-8 lacks the 808's big tempo wheel and its fine-tunable sidekick, so keeping the tempo up to speed gives you slightly finer tuning (pity it doesn't give at least one decimal place for the BPM).

[NoSleep]

Just run a test, slaving the RD-8 to an external clock via MIDI and that overrides the sloppy tempo changeover when changing between patterns with differing step-size/pre-scale, which is a usable get out. Preserves the swing amount for individual patterns, too.

[buzby]

On the TR-808 you have to hard set the step size for the machine (called pre scale) by a selector switch and only gives you the choice of 1/8T, 1/16T/, 1/16 & 1/32. So it's beyond how the 808 could function in that respect. They added a fifth choice, 1/8, on the RD-8

Setting the scale per pattern (and the 1/8 option) is something else 'inherited' from the Yocto's firmware.
The tempo slip on pattern change bug was reported by someone to Behringer in last September (with this accompanying video to show it). Someone else also reported it to them again in April after the most recent firmware update didn't contain a fix and got the response that it was being passed onto the developers.

Just run a test, slaving the RD-8 to an external clock via MIDI and that overrides the sloppy tempo changeover when changing between patterns with differing step-size/pre-scale, which is a usable get out. Preserves the swing amount for individual patterns, too.

Though you then run the potential of running into the MIDI Slave sync issue instead.

There is another interesting issue that's cropped up on the Gearslutz thread recently regarding the Master Out output being polarity inverted compared to the Individual Outs when the internal FX are disabled, so they can't really be used at the same time. This was apparently done so that they could use phase inversion as a shortcut for removal of individual sounds from the onboard FX loop.

[ArtParrott]

I doubt Korg will bother continuing with their version now.

That's a shame, I would think plenty of people still have the money and the inclination to get their hands on something closer to the real deal and authentically "Korg" while leaving Behringer to mop up the budget-end of the market.

That said, if the Poly D is selling for £600+ and the Mono/Poly is in the same case I can see that being priced similarly, so not really that budget at all, particularly if they're not built to last.

[NoSleep]

Though you then run the potential of running into the MIDI Slave sync issue instead.

Seemed fine from a MIDI-out (generated by Logic Pro X) via an RME Fireface 400, at least the couple of times I tried it.

There is another interesting issue that's cropped up on the Gearslutz thread recently regarding the Master Out output being polarity inverted compared to the Individual Outs when the internal FX are disabled, so they can't really be used at the same time. This was apparently done so that they could use phase inversion as a shortcut for removal of individual sounds from the onboard FX loop.

If you look at those images I posted of the bass drum glitch earlier (recorded via the "Mono" output), you can see its waveform is inverted. Something to bear in mind if recording from the "Mono" output (and slightly naff if not made optional).

[idunnosomename]

i bought a behringer um2 so I could play guitar into computer without latency and I love it because I can't see what else would do the job for thirty quid

[Ferris]

lmao "play guitar into computer" what next mate gonna play golf into your fridge?

[idunnosomename]

YOU FUCKER IM GO NNA FUCK you ROTTEN

[NoSleep]

Fuck him into computer?

I can't see what else would do the job for thirty 85 quid

There's other options at that price, but the UM2 is fine.

[idunnosomename]

i dont have 85 pounds for guitar into computer

[NoSleep]

So you couldn't afford a UM2? You must have gone for the UCA202 instead.

[Johnny Textface]

I'm looking to buy a fun drum machine. It would be my second (didn't really get on with the Korg Volca Drum). I must say I liked the look and sound of the Drumbrute but lack of automation recording and the criticism on here has left me doubting it. It's sexy french, sounds fair enough and the polyrhythmic functionality looks fun. I've got about £300 budget tops. So RD8 worth it then? Dated?

[NoSleep]

Any more dated than the Drumbrute? The RD-8 has certainly been fun so far. You'll see that issues have been raised about the RD-8 in the thread as well as the Drumbrute. Having played with both now I'd say get the RD-8. The RD-8 has more programmability as well a polyrhythm function (which I haven't even touched as yet). As Buzby has pointed out, Behringer have plundered ideas from smaller companies and chucked them into the RD-8.

There's some know issues that seem to affect RD-8 users variously.

1) "Rimzilla" - on the earliest batch the rimshot is way louder than the claves if you switch between them. This has been fixed and mine doesn't have this "feature".
2) The bass drum shares a "bug" with the original TR-808 where adjacent bass drums that overlap affect each other's sound; this happens when you open up the decay to get the classic "boom" sound. If another kick drum follows before the decay has completed, then it can sound quieter or louder than the preceding one as the mono synth operating the bass drum still retains the frequency and amplitude info of the decaying bass drum and "accumulates" this into the signal with the new bass drum. The result is variable dependent on tempo as tempo affects whether the two bass drums reinforce one another or cancel one another out. Apparently some original TR-808s did this and some didn't and some have been fixed to stop them doing it.
3) There's sync issues when the RD8 is slaved to another MIDI clock. Having tested my unit it does occasionally falter but I've never expected MIDI clock to work faultlessly. Probably more of a live issue but in the studio you can always start again (goes wrong about one time in 10).
I did try syncing via USB and that was much weirder, with the tempo wandering around, so I recommend to stick with MIDI leads.
4) Slight tempo hiccup if you move between patterns with different "step size" (called "pre-scale" on the original Roland units like the 808, 606 & 303). This appears to go away if you sync to external MIDI. It's not a huge problem if you consider that you couldn't simply move between patterns with different step sizes on the original TR-808, as it was a physical switch that you would set to one or the other step size before pressing play. Demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fEiD9AVfo

I've got mine set up so that tempo and swing are now programmable on a pattern by pattern basis (you have the options "global", "song" or "pattern"), so that my patterns have the same feel and tempo as I last heard them. It's making me play my other instruments more, alongside to its beat, so I've definitely been having fun with it.

[Johnny Textface]

Thanks for that NoSleep! I don't think those issues are going to bother me too much so reckon i'll be joining the club.

[NoSleep]

Should point out that when I say the MIDI sync "falters", I'm only talking about the start point faltering; it stays rock solid in tempo, even if it's out of step that one time in ten.

[Johnny Textface]

Out of interest, did you consider a TR8?

[NoSleep]

I've worked with the TR-8 and was not impressed; lack of programming options being the main thing. There was a real TR-808 (and a Korg KMS-30 to sync it with) in the same studio and I worked with that instead.

The RD-8 is far more like working with a TR-808 with added options.

[ArtParrott]

I've just taken delivery of a secondhand Behringer Model D. That moog made their iOS Model D app free for the lockdown definitely helped me take the plunge. Sounds good to my ears and I've just been running sequences and sticking patch cables into it despite having no idea what they're modulating.

[grainger]

It's worth noting that there are two versions of the Drumbrute: the Drumbrute and the Drumbrute Impact. The main difference is that they have very different sounds. IMO the snares are better on the Impact. Have a listen on Youtube for reviews of both, if you're considering one.