No Time To Die (Bond 25)

[Old Nehamkin]

Actually on second thought it would be good if the new film reveals that the codename theory is actually real and there were secretly hundreds and hundreds of James Bonds who came before Sean Connery.

[Noodle Lizard]

Actually on second thought it would be good if the new film reveals that the codename theory is actually real and there were secretly hundreds and hundreds of James Bonds who came before Sean Connery.

It would. It's only a matter of time before they acknowledge that in some way or other, I think.

Of course I'd love it if he were actually revealed to be a kind of Fulcanelli figure, popping up across the centuries. Perhaps even just in subtle nods - maybe he just mutters a line once per film that implies he was in attendance at the crucifixion or something.

[The Culture Bunker]

Does that mean they have to do the same thing with Felix Leiter too?

[bomb_dog]

There's gonna eventually be some sort of bond multiverse isn't there.

The more detail, backstory, intricacies, fleshing out of bollocks they'll change again in a few years etc. added to these franchises - the less I care. Why can't Bondy McBond just run or drive around a bit and shoot some baddies? Keep it simple, stupid!

[Old Nehamkin]

Does that mean they have to do the same thing with Felix Leiter too?

Yes but unfortunately the CIA's name-changing machine was broken when the Joe Don Baker version of the character came along (having reformed himself from being a big evil arms dealer a few years prior).

[thecuriousorange]

The Living Daylights was the first reboot. Although not entirely as it kept the same M and Q. Then Casino Royale appeared to wipe the whiteboard clean - except for Judi Dench. The "next Bond" could still feature Raiph Fiennes, Naomie Harris or Ben Wishaw in their adventures.

[Noodle Lizard]

Yes but unfortunately the CIA's name-changing machine was broken when the Joe Don Baker version of the character came along (having reformed himself from being a big evil arms dealer a few years prior).

Yeah, what the fuck was going on there? I remember being a Bond-obsessed 8-year-old trying to explain that to my schoolmates (I was not an especially cool child). I can't think of an example of weirder casting within a franchise.

[Old Nehamkin]

Yeah, what the fuck was going on there? I remember being a Bond-obsessed 8-year-old trying to explain that to my schoolmates (I was not an especially cool child). I can't think of an example of weirder casting within a franchise.

You did also have that bloke who played Blofeld in Diamonds Are Forever after appearing as an ally of Bond in You Only Live Twice, but yeah, the Joe Don Baker thing is definitely more egregious and also feels like the absolute tail-end of the era when you could conceivably pull a move like that and have the audience just shrug and accept it. I mean I guess The Living Daylights wasn't particularly fresh in people's minds by the time Goldeneye came out, but still. It would be like if Christoph Waltz came back in the next film after this one, but as M or something.

[Noodle Lizard]

The best thing about the delay of this film's release is that the requisite 18 months has passed for absolutely nobody to care about Rami Malek anymore, despite him being a perfect Hollywood "get" at the time of casting.

[idunnosomename]

I think it's just because James Bond films make money so they keep making them

[Magnum Valentino]

The best thing about the delay of this film's release is that the requisite 18 months has passed for absolutely nobody to care about Rami Malek anymore, despite him being a perfect Hollywood "get" at the time of casting.

Similarly, Billie Elish's momentum has changed from "about to go on massive world tour proportionate with unexpected success of debut album" to "in the middle of cycle for follow up album with entirely different sensibilities". I think it was probably a bigger deal for her then than it is now. Says a lot though that despite the 18 months she's still a big deal. If this happened to Sam Smith I dare say there'd be a lot of 'remember hims?'

[thecuriousorange]

Similarly, Billie Elish's momentum has changed from "about to go on massive world tour proportionate with unexpected success of debut album" to "in the middle of cycle for follow up album with entirely different sensibilities". I think it was probably a bigger deal for her then than it is now. Says a lot though that despite the 18 months she's still a big deal. If this happened to Sam Smith I dare say there'd be a lot of 'remember hims thems?'

[Dr Rock]

The Living Daylights was the first reboot.

In what sense?

[Magnum Valentino]

My apologies.

[Shaky]

The Living Daylights was the first reboot. Although not entirely as it kept the same M and Q. Then Casino Royale appeared to wipe the whiteboard clean - except for Judi Dench. The "next Bond" could still feature Raiph Fiennes, Naomie Harris or Ben Wishaw in their adventures.

Nah, Dalton is the same Bond as Moore, Connery and Lazenby, just with a few years shaved off to extend the number of films he could do. Brosnan was another Dalton, really. I highly doubt it was ever intended to be a brand new timeline. By the time Craig came around the idea of a reboot/prequel was much more prevalent and easily accepted.

[Bad Ambassador]

I think it's a mistake to assume much of any continuity between the movies, pre-Craig. It's really just the bits people generally remember carrying over from film to the next, like Tom and Jerry.

[Norton Canes]

Which one were they in?

[Thomas]

I think they must have begun with a vague sense that the films would follow a continuity, since Dr. No's Sylvia Trench reappears briefly in From Russia With Love, but once they started recasting Bond they probably just decided 'fuck it'.

'This never happened to the other fellow' marks the moment they stop caring too much about whether or not 'it's the same James Bond'.[nb]interestingly, however, before Lazenby quit they intended to follow OHMSS with a film about Bond seeking revenge for Tracy's death. This ultimately happens in truncated form at the beginning of Diamonds Are Forever.[/nb] It becomes a floating Simpsonsy timeline until Craig.

The codename idea makes little sense. When he goes out on missions, he's supposed to use fake names (but characteristically eschews them to introduce himself as Bond). Why would he have a codename solely for use within MI6, which goes back to the 1960s? Especially as each successive Bond keeps leaking it to his enemies.

Secondly, Roger Moore's Bond grieves at the graveside of Tracy - whom we saw marry Lazenby. Good of the third James Bond to take a moment to reflect on his predecessor's feelings. Similarly, both Connery and Moore take the time to wreak vengeance on Blofeld.

[Jerzy Bondov]

Dalton Bond was also presumably married to Tracy, unless he had some other tragic wife that Felix refers to

[colacentral]

Nah, Dalton is the same Bond as Moore, Connery and Lazenby, just with a few years shaved off to extend the number of films he could do. Brosnan was another Dalton, really.

Just on this point, and going back a few pages to someone mentioning how overrated Goldeneye is - I think the thing with Goldeneye is that it's an amazing Bond film when you imagine it. The locations tick all the boxes - there's a snow bit and a jungle bit, driving a tank through Russia. Sounds good. It's got a good Bond girl. Xenia and the Russian general are memorable henchmen. And best of all, the main villain is 006, and he's played by Sean Bean. Fucking hell, great idea, great casting. All the ingredients are great, but the execution falls totally flat. Hence, years later you think back on Goldeneye as a stronger entry, but when you actually sit down to watch it, it's a disappointment.

But on the point of Dalton - it just occurred to me that Sean Bean's 006 almost feels like the criticism of Dalton being too serious to be Bond being cranked up. Like Cooper in Twin Peaks being split into Dougie and Mr. C, it's as if Dalton's Bond was split into the serious 006 and the almost return to Roger Moore of Brosnan. Like, you can imagine Sean Bean as the proto-Daniel Craig. Again, I think that's a really fun dynamic in principle, but in reality they don't spend get much interesting to do with each other. Maybe a heel turn with 006 as the henchman to another main villain would have worked better, like Henry Cavill's character in the last Mission Impossible that came out.

[Dr Rock]

Just on this point, and going back a few pages to someone mentioning how overrated Goldeneye is - I think the thing with Goldeneye is that it's an amazing Bond film when you imagine it. The locations tick all the boxes - there's a snow bit and a jungle bit, driving a tank through Russia. Sounds good. It's got a good Bond girl. Xenia and the Russian general are memorable henchmen. And best of all, the main villain is 006, and he's played by Sean Bean. Fucking hell, great idea, great casting. All the ingredients are great, and it IS great.

[Ant Farm Keyboard]

Goldeneye drags on for much too long, especially after the death of Xenia, and the score has aged terribly, but Martin Campbell brings up some wide scope that was desperately needed for the franchise, especially after License to Kill, which was made on the cheap in some half-abandoned Mexican studio lot, the last of five films directed by John Glen that focused more on chases. Campbell has a lot of visual flair, which is even obvious in the establishing shots.

Goldeneye started out as a script developed by Michael France, where the villain was supposed to be a previous "M", long presumed dead, who had defected to Russia instead. They had Anthony Hopkins in mind for the part. Dalton was attached to it, even if there was no contract. EON hoped to resume production for a few more Dalton entries.

Then, at some point, the executive at MGM/UA who briefly handled the series explained to the Broccoli family that both The Living Daylights and License to Kill had underperformed at the US box office, and that a third lackluster Dalton entry could end up killing the franchise, especially after a six-year gap. The guy forced them to drop Dalton and to have a new guy (who turned out to be the guy who had already been signed for The Living Daylights before NBC ruined it) as the lead, which would make the new film more of an event.
As a favour to Dalton, the Broccolis allowed him to make an announcement where he would step down on his own from the part. The family has always favoured a few trusted collaborators, and Dalton was part of this inner circle (while Brosnan never was). A couple of years later, he was one of the pallbearers at Cubby's funeral.
With Dalton out of the picture, Martin Campbell, who doesn't think much of Dalton's take on the character, became attached to the project. I think he's the only director who truly took advantage of Brosnan's forte, while everyone else just put some Connery elements, then some Moore elements and was satisfied with it.

Anyway, Bond, from Dr No up to Die Another Day, belonged to some very loose continuity that periodically reinterprets the timeline, similar to what can happen in a show such as The Simpsons.
Diamonds Are Forever didn't mention Tracy by name (which would have been problematic, given the shuffle in actors), but Bond being a widow is stated in The Spy Who Loved Me, For Your Eyes Only (Bond pays a visit to Tracy's tomb), License to Kill (which is more or less a revenge story similar to You Only Live Twice, the novel, in which Felix's wife is a surrogate to Bond's) and The World Is Not Enough.

Otherwise, in terms of production, there have been a few watershed moments between "classic" and "modern" era Bond.
– A few key crew members (like Ken Adam) retired after Moonraker, when John Glen and a younger generation took over
- The Living Daylights is the last one with a John Barry score (and one of the last times from the classic formula, where Bond doesn't seek revenge/face a figure from his past/go rogue)
- License to Kill was the last one with Glen, screenwriter Richard Maibaum, credits by Maurice Binder, etc.)

[Blumf]

Would continuity bores have survived Felix Leiter's legs growing back if Craig's Bond wasn't a reboot?

[idunnosomename]

My favourite bit of Goldeneye was sliding around on your knees into the toilet and karate chopping someone

[Ron Maels Moustache]

Similarly, Billie Elish's momentum has changed from "about to go on massive world tour proportionate with unexpected success of debut album" to "in the middle of cycle for follow up album with entirely different sensibilities". I think it was probably a bigger deal for her then than it is now. Says a lot though that despite the 18 months she's still a big deal. If this happened to Sam Smith I dare say there'd be a lot of 'remember hims?'

Just think how Sam Worthington's going to feel when(if?) Avatar II comes out. His period in the spotlight was so brief that I could just picture the collective audience shrug if a huge blockbuster came out now with him as the leading man.

[Ant Farm Keyboard]

Would continuity bores have survived Felix Leiter's legs growing back if Craig's Bond wasn't a reboot?

Leiter is crippled by Fleming's second novel (Live and Let die), losing an arm and half a leg to the sharks.
Then, he returns as a Pinkerton operative, with a prosthetic leg and a hook for a hand.
In later novels, he's on the reserve of the CIA, and there isn't any mention of the missing limbs. Maybe the hand and the legs grew back.

[colacentral]

I think every Bond film should end with Bond missing a limb, dying or being covered head to toe in burn scars, and being inexplicably back to normal at the start of the next one.

[thecuriousorange]

You must also remember that before the nineties almost nobody would have had every James Bond film on video, nevermind DVD, so couldn't pick holes. Helped feed the "that'll do" approach to continuity.

[Ant Farm Keyboard]

The films were also routinely re-released in theaters until the mid-eighties (in France, at least). It would smooth the gap between eras.

[Bad Ambassador]

And they were on TV a lot in the 80s