If not capitalism then what?

[lazyhour]

Sausage, chips, beans and peas

Absolute state of this. You don't deserve socialism.

[TheBrownBottle]

Capitalism and Socialism aren't mutually exclusive. Capitalism would be fine with some checks and balances to ensure the inherent flaws in the system are understood and compensated for. Stopping selfish, greedy pricks taking everything and thinking they somehow deserve it more than others, basically

I think they are - at least in their 'purest' form.  Tempered capitalism isn't socialism, and the existence of the market precludes socialism.

Capitalism will ultimately eat itself, and destroy the human race, if not consigned to history.  I really do believe this.  Capitalism is, ultimately, the idea that selfishness is the best way to live, and ameliorating this is the only goal of the state.  It encourages twattish behaviour.

[The Boston Crab]

I agree that we're slowly annihilating ourselves through greed but to point the finger at capitalism as some malevolent entity is to look past the idea that humans may well be more driven by self-interest and self-preservation than by a desire for collective wellbeing.

Capitalism is the ne plus ultra of human instinctual urges. It's also the endpoint of corruption, no matter where you start.

That's the problem, as I see it. No matter how honourable and well intentioned our plans may be, as soon as the weakest link in the chain succumbs to greed and self-interest, the collapse is inevitable. This is the story of human civilisation.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

I've no problem with capitalism in principle, it's just the selling of goods and services (almost all superfluous) to each other which depresses me. We are leaving behind a trail of lurid plastic crap for future generations to wade through, and they will rightly question why anyone really needed a keychain manacled to a tempest-haired plastic gnome.

What we need is some sort of return to Victorian probity - books and felt sleeves of nuts for presents, a chaste dinner through the week, any money left over donated to the local hospice. The odds of that happening any time soon thou: precisely nil.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

I agree that we're slowly annihilating ourselves through greed but to point the finger at capitalism as some malevolent entity is to look past the idea that humans may well be more driven by self-interest and self-preservation than by a desire for collective wellbeing.

Capitalism is the ne plus ultra of human instinctual urges. It's also the endpoint of corruption, no matter where you start.

That's the problem, as I see it. No matter how honourable and well intentioned our plans may be, as soon as the weakest link in the chain succumbs to greed and self-interest, the collapse is inevitable. This is the story of human civilisation.

Pretty much. It's fine to go "wuhhh capitalism", but unless you're leading some kind of honourable St Francis of Assisi style existence, then you really just have to face the fact capitalism is no more than your own lifestyle choices multiplied and magnified across the world's span.

I on the other hand have always lived like a tramp - albeit a fairly disreputable and tight-fisted one who can barely sort out his own life, let alone anyone else's.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

no more than your own lifestyle choices multiplied and magnified across the world's span.

No more?

That's not true, nor is it a fact.

The people that operate within that dynamic turn it into something considerably more than that.

The reason ordinary people can't afford a house and find it expensive to rent is less to do with their lifestyle choices than it is to do with wealthy people hoovering up available properties and scalping rent. How is that a reflection of collective choice?

This is why it has traditionally been heavily regulated because it is prone to allow the powerful to amass wealth and assets at the expense of others.

[Cardenio I]

but people how they say capitalism bad if open cupboard, own beans, fruit, noodles - all bought in SHOP???

[Captain Z]

Captalism no necessao if each person accep SPONOSORSHIP deal eg, JEPE.

[Zetetic]

That's the problem, as I see it. No matter how honourable and well intentioned our plans may be, as soon as the weakest link in the chain succumbs to greed and self-interest, the collapse is inevitable.

Maybe, but clearly not instantly. The aim isn't to build a system that works perfectly forever, the aim is to keep trying to find a way forward that works a bit better for a bit, with a degree of resilience to the many and varied limitations of humans.

This is the story of human civilisation.

Wreckage heaped upon wreckage, if you like. But that's not really a good argument to stop trying, any more than it is when it comes to doing the washing up.

Although, that it is so heartbreaking might be.

[Zetetic]

the existence of the market precludes socialism.

Nah. Markets are a particular mechanism for transmitting information about desires and priorities at bottom. The alternative to private ownership and direction of production isn't inherently central planning and a refusal to understand price formation; these are answers to different, if not unrelated, questions.

Mind you, I appreciate features of capitalism include trying to shove markets in where they don't belong (and very deliberately making them far worse than they have to be, even once you've committed to inappropriate marketisation) and treating markets as if they're the only authentic source of information about how we should direct resources.

[gib]

I on the other hand have always lived like a tramp

How so?

[chveik]

I say bring back the good old potlatch

[AllisonSays]

If not ironic internet posting then what

[Noonling]

I already made a thread a while ago about the alternative to capitalism - it is hexagons. I spent a long time thinking about it and the best alternative really is hexagons.

[Kryton]

I say bring back the good old potlatch

Bring back the massive dunking spoon AND the village shouting bucket.