I don't think The Sopranos is very good, does that make me a cunt?

[Funcrusher]

Love The Sopranos, best show to have been on television.

Watched quite a lot of The Wire and well...meh.

Cunt.

[Dex Sawash]

I've never watched an episode of Sopranos. I might someday.

[touchingcloth]

I love the episode where the first find Santa's Little Helper.

[Bazooka]

I'm a pure cunt, through and through, but it is the best drama ever made DNA and fossils will attest.

[cliggg]

I know what you mean but this isn't to someone who hates it, is it? The OP likes it but hasn't been sold on it being a masterpiece, and has already said they'll be watching it through to the end.

It reflects my experience with the show anyway, from first watching it all 10 years ago. I liked it just fine until the latter half of season 4, when it suddenly all made sense to me. Some people prefer the first half of the Sopranos, some prefer the second. I'd argue that viewers coming from shows like The Wire and other modern dramas are more likely to prefer the second half as it goes darker and more serialised, more closely resembling something that would be made today.

I wouldn't say it about any other drama I can think of. Maybe The Leftovers, where the first season is mostly standard Lost-tier mystery bilge, whilst the third season is a perfect TV masterpiece which should be mandatory viewing.

It's just the nature of dramas that you sometimes have to get through not as good stuff first, due to the serialisation. With comedy you can say "start with season 3" because you don't need to see the first two to get what's going on. It would be a shame for someone to give up on say Seinfeld after two seasons when by season 6 it's a completely different show.

I hope you're right! Seinfeld and Breaking Bad would be two good examples of that for me. I didn't think they were that good but good enough to keep watching and then I ended up loving them. That doesn't mean I'm suddenly not a cunt but still there is a glimmer of hope for me possibly.....

[greenman]

Everything ramps up at the end in The Sopranos.

The Wire and The Sopranos have different aims. The Sopranos is essentially a family drama (in which violence is the final arbiter) where characters are the focus. The Wire is more ambitious- it's about society and the institutions and community are the focus.
Hence in The Sopranos oddly it's more hopeful because people seem to determine their own fate while in The Wire people are resigned to it. Maybe Herc escapes his fate but that's due to his dumb luck. There is shit that happens in The Sopranos for petty, personal reasons while in The Wire there is always an instrumental end (even Marlo going after Omar).

There also pretty fundamentally different in terms of tone/style I'd say, The Wire is mostly pretty straight drama with a few slightly out outlandish pulpy elements to it, the Supranos was always semi comedic including characters and situations that were rather over the top.

[Inspector Norse]

I think that it's a great show and deserves recognition in particular for the way it really advanced TV drama to a new level of complexity and depth, while Gandolfini's Tony is perhaps the single greatest TV role of all time.

That said, what prevents it, for me, really making the top bracket is a certain bagginess of plot and theme, a tendency to meander and repeat itself. So many season-long storylines about a guy from the past coming back and shaking things up, so many Tony-Carmela arguments, so many self-destructive Christopher binges. It maybe makes it more realistic and less soapy, characters making the same mistakes and not learning or developing the way they tend to in fiction, but it also makes a show a tad repetitive over seven series.

[QDRPHNC]

I was expecting more HOLY SHIT!! type moments.

I have located the issue.

[Endicott]

I think any suggestion that the Sopranos isn't much cop is a bit foolish, because it's very popular, has a lot of appeal and people will defend it very eruditely.

What I can say personally is that I watched the first season about 9 years ago, I couldn't identify any themes or interest to the story or any characters that I wanted to know more about, and I thought, it's obviously got appeal but this isn't for me. James Gandolfini is excellent though.

Whereas, my personal experience of The Wire, is that I've watched it all the way through at least 10 times since it came out. Because it's like a novel, has huge depth and just gets better each time. Deadwood also, although only about 3 times all the way through. And I need to do a proper re-watch of Better Call Saul to get ready for the next season.

TL;DR? People like different things.

[Cuellar]

Cunt.

Fair.

[touchingcloth]

I think any suggestion that the Sopranos isn't much cop is a bit foolish, because it's very popular, has a lot of appeal and people will defend it very eruditely.

What I can say personally is that I watched the first season about 9 years ago, I couldn't identify any themes or interest to the story or any characters that I wanted to know more about, and I thought, it's obviously got appeal but this isn't for me. James Gandolfini is excellent though.

Whereas, my personal experience of The Wire, is that I've watched it all the way through at least 10 times since it came out. Because it's like a novel, has huge depth and just gets better each time. Deadwood also, although only about 3 times all the way through. And I need to do a proper re-watch of Better Call Saul to get ready for the next season.

TL;DR? People like different things.

This is a great post, and sums up how I feel about Game of Thrones (never seen it, is probably good but I don't have time and it doesn't grip me as a concept) and Breaking Bad (seen a couple of episodes, which were well made as telly tends to be these days, but didn't compel me to watch any further).

I've watched Deadwood through several times, and I think I ought to give The Wire a go.

[hummingofevil]

We've had this discussion so many times. It's the greatest TV show ever made and the subtleties and slow reveal are some of the best "art" human beings have ever made. The ending (no spoilers) is perfect at making the viewer reflect on what the whole thing is ABOUT!. Just hang on in there. It's amazing.

[hummingofevil]

I think that it's a great show and deserves recognition in particular for the way it really advanced TV drama to a new level of complexity and depth, while Gandolfini's Tony is perhaps the single greatest TV role of all time.

I will argue to my death bed that Tony Soprano is the second best TV character of all time; the subtlety and character arc of Carmella is the real soul of the show. Edie Falco is the perfect actor and her psychology is way more fascinating.

[hummingofevil]

There also pretty fundamentally different in terms of tone/style I'd say, The Wire is mostly pretty straight drama with a few slightly out outlandish pulpy elements to it, the Supranos was always semi comedic including characters and situations that were rather over the top.

They both share a similarity of the true meaning of the show gradually reveals itself. The Wire is about structures, The Sopranos is about the human psyche; both of the characters and, moreover, the viewer.  It's not only about the people involved but is about us. Breaking Bad is nowhere near as good as either of them but plays with same idea. Actually, thinking about it I would put The Sopranos in same realm of Alan Moore comics; The Wire is Dickens. Both great but I know what I prefer.

[H-O-W-L]

This is a great post, and sums up how I feel about Game of Thrones (never seen it, is probably good but I don't have time and it doesn't grip me as a concept)

As someone who felt the same way, I can say that it probably would actually grip you, but I can also say you really shouldn't watch it considering how shit the TV series ends. You're better off just never encountering it rather than being disappointed.

[Urinal Cake]

There also pretty fundamentally different in terms of tone/style I'd say, The Wire is mostly pretty straight drama with a few slightly out outlandish pulpy elements to it, the Supranos was always semi comedic including characters and situations that were rather over the top.

I agree with you about The Wire. But the only thing over the top about The Sopranos is the violence.

The situations and characters ring true to life. I know Livias, one or two Paulies, a Christopher/AJ hybrid etc. To me the dorky equivalent to The Sopranos was Everybody loves Raymond. In a sitcom world there's less bile, people argue and everybody loves each other in the end. In The Sopranos as in the real world there's pure hate, roaring fights and love always seems conditional- I mean that where Chase drew his inspiration from. Obviously in TV land if somebody pisses or rips you off you just kill them seemingly with very few repercussions.

[greenman]

I agree with you about The Wire. But the only thing over the top about The Sopranos is the violence.

The situations and characters ring true to life. I know Livias, one or two Paulies, a Christopher/AJ hybrid etc. To me the dorky equivalent to The Sopranos was Everybody loves Raymond. In a sitcom world there's less bile, people argue and everybody loves each other in the end. In The Sopranos as in the real world there's pure hate, roaring fights and love always seems conditional- I mean that where Chase drew his inspiration from. Obviously in TV land if somebody pisses or rips you off you just kill them seemingly with very few repercussions.

Yeah Id agree with that, it just seems the nature of the show was always quite heavy on undermining more glamorous depictions of the mafia by constantly including unglamorous and semi comedic character traits and situations. You could argue that actually shifts it towards realism I spose but I don't think pure realism was the sole intension, comedy was always(especially earlier) a large part of it.

[buttgammon]

For me, the humour is the most integral part of The Sopranos. I have a strong preference for character-driven stuff, but I also find a lot of programmes dry and boring if they go for that po-faced seriousness that some people think makes things 'realistic', so my favourite dramas are the ones that most successfully combine great characters with humour - this is why I'd place the likes of The Sopranos, Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad some way above The Wire in the scheme of things.

For what it's worth, I still think The Sopranos is the absolute pinnacle of TV drama, with Better Call Saul not far behind.

[Urinal Cake]

They rung every minute out of that show with all types of humour even the true to life recycled/rehearsed old jokes of Junior etc that you can't help laugh and roll your eyes at.

[Inspector Norse]

I will argue to my death bed that Tony Soprano is the second best TV character of all time; the subtlety and character arc of Carmella is the real soul of the show. Edie Falco is the perfect actor and her psychology is way more fascinating.

Falco was fantastic too but I thought Carmela's character development suffered from always being tethered to Tony. I appreciate that it must be hard to escape that life, but it left them without much to do with her.
Certainly a far better character than, say, Skyler White, who mainly seemed to exist to be an obstacle to her husband.

[BlodwynPig]

I recently started watching The Sopranos and am not really enjoying it. It's kind of a slog to get through for me. I just finished the third episode of season 3 and I haven't even once had that must watch next episode immediately feeling. I'll persist with it and finish it over the next few months but I'm not expecting improvement. I do love The Shield & The Wire both of which are often mentioned as being influenced by The Sopranos. So am I a cunt?

Nope.. Not watched it myself.

[Sexton Brackets Drugbust]

The Wire's not completely po-faced; it's got loads of humour, often in the character specific turns of phrase or the wryly observed social truths that come from unexpected sources.

[mjwilson]

I'm on page 1,147 of War and Peace. Not impressed, does it get any better?

The ending absolutely shits the bed. (Not a joke.)

[Endicott]

The Wire's not completely po-faced; it's got loads of humour, often in the character specific turns of phrase or the wryly observed social truths that come from unexpected sources.

Oh yes, this. But if I bang on too much about The Wire ziggy starbucks will refurface to call me a wire nazi. And quite right too. I even defend Season 5. (don't start, I just mentioned 5 to define the extent of my zeal, not gonna do it again)

[bgmnts]

The Wire goes downhill when McNulty manages to invent a serial killer and nobody twigs, that's ridiculous.

[Endicott]

Don't trigger me you bastard. It's not ridiculous, it's all handled in the script perfectly.

[hummingofevil]

Falco was fantastic too but I thought Carmela's character development suffered from always being tethered to Tony. I appreciate that it must be hard to escape that life, but it left them without much to do with her.
Certainly a far better character than, say, Skyler White, who mainly seemed to exist to be an obstacle to her husband.

That why I love that character so much. She is so tightly bound into her situation that the instinct is to sympathise. Family, culture, religion,  expectation... she like so many others had her life path planned out for her to be a mobsters wife; the homemaker and child rearer. But then like every other character in it the slowly squeeze out of her her hypocrisy and calculation. How she knows exactly what she has got herself into and her attempts to better her life for herself and her children are all based on the violence and extortion of the culture she uphelds. She is not a nice person as much as she constantly tries to convince herself (and us?) otherwise and the subtleties of the storytelling and her acting are amazing

I really need to go back and watch it all again someday.

[VelourSpirit]

Thought this said The Simpsons and I was about to say YES. Haven't seen the Sopranos though I'm too much of a cunt who hasn't watched The Godfather Part II which I feel might be required watching before getting into the Sopranos

[timebug]

Never watched a single episode of 'The Sopranos' but now I have a digital doodab that enables me to see almost anything I want, I will give it a go when I have caught up with all the other crap I missed over the past few years!

[Bazooka]

Big Pussy(character/not genitalia) on the boat episode secures its position as the greatest piece of television.