ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE LABOUR PARTY? [Split topic]

[dallasman]

I still maintain Boris is more personally racist than Corbyn, but I'm not sure to what degree that matters.

You raise an interesting point. Let's look at the evidence, starting with Boris: He put the words "picaninnies" and "watermelon smiles" in the mouths of some fictional people he was writing about. Even worse, he disparaged the burqa - a beautiful tradition that is important to all Muslims, who are of course, brown. Also, under the last twelve years of Tory rule, the British army - BoJo's army - have been at war with the Taliban; the very people who are trying to bring back the burqa. All in all, this makes a pretty watertight case for his racism and islamophobia.

Turning to Corbyn, this is what the author calls his "greatest hits":

Support for and associations with terrorist groups and convicted terrorists

    Labour's antisemitism crisis is often scathingly reduced to a single incident, on both sides of the argument, Corbyn calling Hamas & Hezbollah friends. That could indeed be explained away by the language of good faith and dialogue or as simply being about reaching out to solve the Middle East conflict. Many Jews feel differently, but let's be generous. Here is Corbyn discussing the issue. Judge for yourself if you feel this is the temperament of a man who feels comfortable with his actions.

    However, further in that speech Corbyn says Hamas are a "force for peace and social justice". The antisemitism question aside, this is a much less reasonable position, given that Hamas notoriously murders Palestinian citizens including members of the LGBT community. Both Hamas and Hezbollah are openly antisemitic, although Hezbollah has on occasion claimed to simply be anti-Zionist. These claims are generally considered to be false by experts (Gleis & Berti, Hezbollah and Hamas: A Comparative Study). Hezbollah engages in Holocaust denial and actively spreads antisemitic consipracy theories. The Hamas charter (1988) references killing Jews (Article 7, attributed to the Prophet Mohammed), Zionists starting wars for their own gain (Article 22) and cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as proof of Zionist ambitions of world domination (Article 32).

    Raed Salah, convicted in an Israeli court of incitement to violence, and more recently of incitement to terrorism is widely regarded as a hate preacher. In a rally in 2007 he is accused of saying "We have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. "Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread." Corbyn was lobbying on his behalf in 2012. A man who thinks Jews drink the blood of children. He called him a very honoured citizen and invited him to tea in Parliament. Corbyn also accused the "Zionist lobby" of being behind Salah's deportation from Britain. That in itself is an inarguably antisemitic trope. It was not a question of process. Corbyn did not address nor condemn Salah's comments. He made no good-faith attempt to find out what Jewish or national concerns were over Salah. He immediately assumed Salah was wholly innocent and a victim of a conspiracy by the "Zionist lobby".

    Jawad Botmeh and Samar Alami were two men convicted for their part in the car bombing of the Israeli embassy and a Jewish charity in Kensington. Corbyn campaigned for their release.

    One of Corbyn's numerous paid appearances on Iran's Press TV (this one taking place seven months after the channel lost its Ofcom license for its role in the torture of a journalist) was with a convicted Hamas terrorist named Dr Abdul Aziz Umar who was given seven life sentences for helping to organise a Hamas suicide bombing in Jerusalem in 2003 that killed seven people. Umar provided a safe house for the terrorists and guarded the property while the bomber was fitted with a suicide belt. Umar was released a year prior to the conversation with Corbyn. This was as part of the controversial prisoner exchange arranged to release captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. On the topic, Corbyn said: "You have to ask the question why they are in prison in the first place" and "I'm glad that those who were released were released." He continued: "I met many of the brothers, including the brother who's been speaking here when they came out of prison, when I was in Doha earlier this year." The full Press TV segment can be viewed here.

    Allegations emerged that in 2014, Corbyn was present at a wreath-laying ceremony which honoured senior figures of Fatah and the PLO, Salah Khalaf, who claimed in his memoir to have hand picked the gunmen who murdered eleven Israeli Olympic team members at the 1972 Olympics in Munich, and Atef Bseiso who was also alleged to have been involved in the planning of the attack. The Munich massacre holds special meaning in the Jewish psyche — this was an attack on unarmed civilians, outside of Israel, simply because they were Jewish and Israeli. The brutality with which some of the athletes were murdered and the decision to continue the games after a short suspension left Jews in shock.

    Corbyn had claimed that he was laying the wreath for victims of an Israeli air strike on the PLO headquarters in Tunisia, while the Daily Mail article alleged that Corbyn was not standing in the correct place for this to be the case. This claim alone is perhaps dubious as other reports have claimed that where Corbyn stood was typically where visiting dignitaries would have stood to honour victims of the air strike. However — an article written by Corbyn for Morning Star about the events was unearthed in which Corbyn stated that "wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991". Corbyn has not confirmed to whom was referring (Bseiso was killed in Paris in 1992, and Khalaf was assassinated in Tunisia in 1991). Corbyn later issued a partial admission saying that he had been present at such a ceremony "but not involved". A statement that for many British Jews has come to define Corbyn's position on antisemitism. Channel 4 provided a thorough fact check of the circumstantial evidence, claims and counter-claims here. Once again, you can decide for yourselves.

Corbyn and the Holocaust

    Corbyn remained a prominent supporter of an anti-israel organisation, Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), years after their organisers (including Paul Eisen) were exposed as Holocaust deniers, despite having claimed to have cut ties after Eisen's views were exposed.

    In 2010, Corbyn hosted an event on Holocaust Memorial Day titled "Never Again For Anyone, From Auschwitz to Gaza". At the event, Jewish Auschwitz survivor and anti-Zionist Hajo Meyer, who died in 2014 aged 90, compared Israeli policy to the Nazi regime. The main talk was entitled: The Misuse of the Holocaust for Political Purposes. While it is fair to say that it is a huge grey area when it comes to the involvement of a Holocaust survivor, Corbyn himself cannot claim such a history. The meeting was also addressed by phone from Gaza by Palestinian activist, Haidar Eid, who reportedly said: "The world was absolutely wrong to think that Nazism was defeated in 1945. Nazism has won because it has finally managed to Nazify the consciousness of its own victims." On this one occasion, Corbyn issued an extraordinarily rare apology, stating: "In the past, in pursuit of justice for the Palestinian people and peace in Israel/Palestine, I have on occasion appeared on platforms with people whose views I completely reject. I apologise for the concerns and anxiety that this has caused."

    In 2011, Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, proposed an Early Day Motion to change the name of Holocaust Memorial Day to "Genocide Memorial Day — Never Again for Anyone". The Early Day Motion was supported by Corbyn, amongst others, although support for EDMs politically means very little. What is more troubling is McDonnell, widely regarded as Corbyn's closest political ally, proposing an EDM to effectively erase Jewishness from the memorialising of the Holocaust.

    Corbyn wrote a letter in defence of the Reverend Stephen Sizer after he shared a link to an article on a website which also contained antisemitic material and Holocaust denial. While it is not an unreasonable point that the reverend may not have been aware of other materials on the site, Corbyn went further, suggesting that Sizer was under attack by "certain individuals." Sizer later went on to claim that Israel was responsible for 9/11, a well-known conspiracy theory with notoriously antisemitic undertones.

Pretty weak tea, I'm sure you'll agree. But as you say, "Does it really matter"? And it probably doesn't. The crux of the AS charges against Jeremy as a person is basically this:

Corbyn either cannot recognise antisemitism or doesn't care when he does.

It's abundantly clear that this describes a significant portion of the Corbynite Labour membership, including this little cell.

[bgmnts]

I've said this to every tory right wing cunt who has the audacity to even mention anti-semitism. Just stop pretending to care about Jewish people.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Regargless of the veracity of Jewish people's experiences, it is amazing the amount of right wing people who suddenly give a flying fuck about AS, despite apparently not giving a shit pre-Corbyn

Exactly, and it doesn't surprise me to see Tommy Robinson supporters suddenly caring about racism considering that bad faith accusations of anti-semitism from the right have frequently been driven by islamophobia

[Buelligan]

I said I wouldn't post more in this thread but I keep watching it get bumped so I'm going to say this to all those concerned people who care about being fair - if you saw a campaign of information about any minority group, full of hearsay, tenuous links, anecdotes, saying they all eat dog meat/steal our jobs/live like pigs/sacrifice children or whatever, you'd be concerned but you'd reject it, you'd demand cast iron evidence.  You'd at least consider the possibility that those spreading the story were doing it for *reasons*.

But seemingly not with Corbyn.  Even though you're able to read the fifty times list, even though you can see him talking about his opposition to antisemitism both in archived film and now, you still choose to entertain the idea that he eats dog meat.  What does that make you?

I would add, dallasman is a poster who's been coming here for a long time to sow anti-Left discontent.  He spices it up with a few crumbs of solidarity but always returns to the same underlying gruel, I'm surprised you haven't noticed.  Pinball's just an old fashioned right wing prick.  They're both bumping this thread to troll.

Now, for fuck's sake stop bumping this abhorrent turd of a thread.

[dallasman]

I am Jewish, and cynically weaponising someone's horrible personal experience just to do a bit of trolling on Election day is disgusting and you should be fucking ashamed of yourself. Do not pretend that you actually give a shit about us, because if you did, you wouldn't do it like this

I never claimed to care about you, Verdoux, and I don't. I thought this woman's story deserved to be heard, no matter her ethnicity or mental health situation. If you want to accuse her of cynically weaponizing her experiences, there are probably still ways you can get at her.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

You are the one weaponising, you abhorrent piece of shit

[Nowhere Man]

Christ can we just let this thread fuck off on today of all days

[chveik]

sorry

[bgmnts]

Christ can we just let this thread fuck off on today of all days

No.

It must be kept alive.

[Pdine]

You raise an interesting point. Let's look at the evidence, starting with Boris: He put the words "picaninnies" and "watermelon smiles" in the mouths of some fictional people he was writing about.

No, he used that language himself in an piece which - while written archly - was not fiction. Here's the whole thing as The Telegraph have helpfully paywalled it:

^{If Blair's so good at running the Congo, let him stay there
By Boris Johnson
12:01AM GMT 10 Jan 2002
HE'S back. The doors of the prime ministerial plane have been opened, and he has at last been seen at the top of the gangway. Our leader is returned to his benighted children; the pater patriae is home, and how lost his ministers have seemed without him.
For ages, it seems, Supertone has been orbiting in his taxpayer-funded jet, descending to bring his particular brand of humbug to the trouble spots of the world. He did the namaste in Bangalore, and lo, the warring faiths of the Indian subcontinent immediately rescheduled World War Three. For a full 120 minutes, he and Cherie shone the light of their countenances upon the people of Afghanistan, and, who knows, perhaps the place is now rife with feminism, habeas corpus and multi-party democracy.
What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England. It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies; and one can imagine that Blair, twice victor abroad but enmired at home, is similarly seduced by foreign politeness.
They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird. Like Zeus, back there in the Iliad, he has turned his shining eyes away, far over the lands of the Hippemolgoi, the drinkers of mares' milk. He has forgotten domestic affairs, and here, as it happens, in this modest little country that elected him, hell has broken loose.
Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, has been at war with Peter Hain about the timing of the plan to abolish the pound. Half the adolescent population seems to be trying to steal the mobile phones of the other half. Every female columnist in Fleet Street is now in a state of panic about the mumps, measles and rubella jab, waving their babies in the air and screaming for guidance from the First Father. Across Britain, the commuters groan and snarl as the Dave Sparts and Ned Ludds of the RMT bring the trains to a halt.
And now, to cap it all, one of Blair's very own ministers, the increasingly trusted and important Peter Hain, has broken off from his war with Straw to launch an attack on Stephen Byers. Today the Prime Minister will open his copy of The Spectator (which he once told me, through gritted teeth, that he rather enjoyed), to find that Hain has made a sensational admission. He tells Anne McElvoy that "we have the worst railways in Europe". That's it, Tony: out of the mouth of one of your own ministers.
After four and a half years of Labour government, British railways are now worse than those of Portugal, Greece and Romania. Slovak drivers actually turn up for work; Bulgarian leaves do not block the track; and the 8.02 from Zagreb to Split is infinitely more to be trusted than anything running from Waterloo to Basingstoke.
What Hain has said is not only unpatriotic. It is true. It is therefore a gaffe. How can a senior minister make such a confession, and not be punished? Will Hain survive until the weekend? Of course he will, because the Government, in its arrogance, knows that it can continue to blame the Tories. It was the damnosa hereditas, they will say. It was the botched privatisation. It is only now, says Blair, that the terrible effects are being felt on the nation's arteries, just as a heart patient spectacularly collapses after 18 blissful years of eating pork pies. Does anyone really believe this account?
For all its faults, privatisation led to a 25 per cent increase in railway use; it allowed huge quantities of cash to be raised on the markets - £2 billion in 2000 alone; and, in spite of the crashes at Paddington and Hatfield, you were far safer travelling on the privatised railways than you were on British Rail.
What has caused the railways' recent cardiac infarct has been four years of Prescottian inertia, coupled with a hysterical reaction to the Hatfield crash, which drove Railtrack into a bankruptcy that secretly or openly delighted every section of the Labour Party. The railways have been managed fantastically badly by this Government; and it is good of Hain to accept the gravity of the problem.
Since he is in this candid mood, he might as well go on to say that we have one of the worst health services in Europe. To pluck a statistic at random: if you are a British woman with leukaemia, you have 21 per cent less chance of living another five years than a German woman with leukaemia. No one is suggesting that the problems of the NHS began in 1997; it is just that Labour does not seem to have any intention of solving them.
One of the reasons the Germans are healthier than us is that they are able to spend more on health, because roughly half their hospitals are independently funded. Is that a solution Blair is prepared to discuss? Or is Labour prepared to learn from France? There they stop the wasting of GPs' time by imposing a 25 per cent upfront charge - which is refundable later - on everyone who calls to see the doctor.
And if Hain were really super-truthful, he would admit that we have a philistine education system, in which the teaching of foreign languages is at an all-time low. My new pro-European policy for the Tories is to crusade for the teaching of French and German in state schools, so that we can all go over there and see what they do for ourselves. And if Blair continues to swank around the stratosphere, and ignore the problems at home, he might as well find another country to run. If they will elect him.}

[dallasman]

This thread is about the Labour Party.

[Inspector Norse]

This thread is about the Labour Party.

As, it appears, are all the discussions about racism and anti-semitism despite evidence suggesting both are far more prevalent elsewhere.

[NoSleep]

This thread is about the Labour Party.

Why does the title end in a question mark? And why did you mention Johnson (and incorrectly excused him)?

[dallasman]

Why does the title end in a question mark? And why did you mention Johnson (and incorrectly excused him)?

I didn't name the thread. I was replying to the OP, who mentioned Boris by way of comparison, and then asked whether their personal "racism" is really the issue? I agreed that it probably isn't. The problem is a worldview that provides cover for extremism, which is being defended with intimidation and brute force, by people who apparently see themselves as some sort of enlightened vanguard of justice and progress, and everyone else as cunts, trolls and morons.

Just for the record, again: Not that it really matters, but I am left wing and I've voted Socialist and Labour all my life, only flipping to Green at the last election. I'm not British, so I try to factor that in when it seems relevant. I don't claim to be qualified to pontificate on the finer points of the manifesto, or the veracity of the NHS documents, but I can tell when people are lying about easily checkable facts, and when they're shooting the messenger, "circular firing squad"-style. Over the years, I've occasionally "spoken out"  - sometimes straightforwardly, sometimes sarcastically - against conspiracy theories, bullying, hate mongering and gossip. Because I am annoyed and repulsed by these things, not because I'm right wing. I do it here because this is one of about three sites that I post semi-regularly on, the only one with "politics" threads. And it so happens that many of the things that bother me about parts of the left, and the internet in general, tend to surface a lot here; in forms that frequently tread a fine line between parody and hate speech.

My theory, which is mine, but not about me, is this: Labour is in trouble because it's become more like General Bullshit. I can't really put in any simpler than that. I'd just made a similar point in another thread, when I saw the thread bump that led to this split topic. By that time, the firing squad were already out in force (despite clearly not having read the extremely long piece), and before long, gout_pony had profusely apologised for momentarily indulging his conscience.

But the topic is as valid as ever, not least because of this exact kind of response, and how mind-numbingly predictable it's become. Therefore, I decided to post an excerpt from the article that was relevant to the OP's question. And the response to that was predictably predictable: Still refusing to engage with the lived experience of minorities, and instead picking up on irrelevant details (how much more cleary could I have signposted my Boris reference ffs?) or falling back on the old mantras. Smears. Right wing. Manufactured. Tommy Robinson. Whatabout xyz. So boring. I'd post a gif of Jeremy rolling his eyes and sighing, but I'm not Paulie Walnuts, and this is all very tedious, and ultimately not my problem. I hope you get rid of BoJo and the Tories, but I'm less enthused about Jeremy than ever, and pretty much convinced that there really is a problem with antisemitism in the party. A certain cohort of Labour members don't recognize it, and/or they don't care when they do.

As for antisemisim on CaB, this group clearly has quibbles with the definition of antisemitism because a number of them are on record, repeatedly, on this forum, making statements that are literally antisemitic, according to those pesky IHRA examples. Not coincidentally, the reigning view on the Israel-Palestine conflict here is one that favours the very strongest terms, like "apartheid", "genocide", "concentration camp" and "racist endeavour" (lately more commonly fig-leafed as "supremacist" or similar). These anti-zionists (if you please) then merrily go about calling everyone under the sun a "racist", "islamophobe", "fascist", "far right", "psychopath", "white supremacist", "cunt", "troll" etc. If anyone tries to temper the conversation with nuance and perspective, they are thrown on the same pyre. "Gleefully oblivious", is a phrase that comes to mind from where I'm sitting. And "nasty hypocrites". But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

Are you Jewish? Because it seems like you're just another gentile who selectively ignores Jewish voices you don't agree with

[Crisps?]

Why does the title end in a question mark? And why did you mention Johnson (and incorrectly excused him)?

Because he's trolling in a (successful) attempt to keep this thread title virtually pinned to the top of the forum. Less totally obviously than some, but still totally obviously, as in the sarcastic bad-faith first paragraph of the top post on this page, mockingly talking about "beautiful" burkas and Johnson being a racist

BloJob would actually love dallasman's avatar, which was rightly called out by Howj Begg a few years back for being a racist caricature.

Perhaps he should replace it with a drawing of a big nosed Jew and see what the author of the anti-Corbyn stuff he's insincerely copy/pasting here thinks of it.

[dallasman]

Are you Jewish? Because it seems like you're just another gentile who selectively ignores Jewish voices you don't agree with

This is the second time I've responded to you, and you're the only Jewish voice addressing me at the moment. You still haven't made a point, except lamely attacking my credibility. Under the circumstances, do you really think you're strengthening your case by calling attention to "gentiles selectively ignoring Jewish voices they don't agree with"? I've spent far more time listening to Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein and Norman Finkelstein than to any of the prominent Jewish people who have blasted Corbyn. It's not even close. And if you have something interesting to say about your experience as a Corbyn-supporting Jewish person, I'm all ears.

On the subject of this particular Medium piece, though, my inclination is to listen to the Jewish Labour member who wrote it, and listen to the voices that are speaking to me through quotes and anecdotes throughout, and to form my opinion of the claims put forward that way. Other CaB gentiles reacted with anger and horror at the mere suggestion that the article was worth reading. I'll leave for people to decide for themselves which is the more honest approach.

[jobotic]

It's your approach. It's full of honesty, nuance and perspective and we thank you.

[Dewt]

On the subject of this particular Medium piece, though, my inclination is to listen to the Jewish Labour member who wrote it, and listen to the voices that are speaking to me through quotes and anecdotes throughout, and to form my opinion of the claims put forward that way. Other CaB gentiles reacted with anger and horror at the mere suggestion that the article was worth reading. I'll leave for people to decide for themselves which is the more honest approach.

When we have infinite perspectives to choose from, selecting the ones that suit the narrative you want to be true reveals your prejudices.

[phantom_power]

And for fuck's sake, at a worst case, even if all the complaints are upheld, which it is likely they won't be, that is still a level of AS less than the societal baseline, which may well be not good enough for a progressive party, but certainly no reason not to vote for them, especially given the alternative is antisemitic, racist, homophobic, islamophobic and several other shades of bigotry as well.

[dallasman]

BloJob would actually love dallasman's avatar, which was rightly called out by Howj Begg a few years back for being a racist caricature.

Perhaps he should replace it with a drawing of a big nosed Jew and see what the author of the anti-Corbyn stuff he's insincerely copy/pasting here thinks of it.

Another terrible point to bring up. Howj Begg simply barged into a silly joke thread I'd started, and told me he hated my avatar, apropos of nothing. He refused to explain why, but it was apparently to do with something called DSMO, which I'd never heard of. Seeing as my avatar is not white, I figured that's probably all it would take to be seen as a Pepe-like subversion by the addled paranoiacs on this forum. Then you piled on, idiotically claiming I'd now "admitted" to having a racist avatar, and that's the level the thread stayed at for the rest of it brief existence. No evidence of any kind was produced, and the accusations remained vague innuendo, but still, the general feeling seemed to be that I was probably a racist troll cunt of one sort or another. Nobody had anything to back up heir attacks with, so it was just left there.

And now you've gone out of your way to dredge the whole sorry spectacle up again, simply because I happen to believe some of the accounts of Labour antisemitism that have surfaced over the past few years. That clinches it for you, apparently. As if this is all an amusing game to me. In what universe does that even begin to sound plausible?

I'm sure your contributions are most welcome, though, so knock yourself out.

[Urinal Cake]

Okay so there's blame on Corbyn, Corbynism and Brexit.

Like I said before there's no broad coalition of minority groups. As Stewart Lee said a bunch of rats in a sewer fighting over pieces of piss.

[garbed_attic]

Okay so there's blame on Corbyn, Corbynism and Brexit.

Like I said before there's no broad coalition of minority groups. As Stewart Lee said a bunch of rats in a sewer fighting over pieces of piss.

Okay, I think that's about right.

As I said to chveik, I understand and appreciated I've pissed you and many people off with that anti-semitism article... and I probably only posted it out of guilt due to reading so many tweets from Jewish people imploring folks to read it and watching those videos of SWP activists screaming at Jewish protestors...

As said, my local XR group is very pro-Hallam and some of the "holocaust was not so bad" stuff and anger at Jews from a fellow member has got my brain in knots... like... I basically think a large swarth of the Jewish population of this country has been played... but I think this has resulted in genuine fear, leading to many of them being anti-Labour... leading to some Labour members saying abusive stuff because they know how fucking evil the Tories are.

It feels like it's just the same old divide and rule managing to whip up self-fulfilling prophecies. And it's fucking depressing.

As said, on Twitter and FB I've been just encouraging people to vote anti-Tory or pro-Labour. I've been doing a fuckton of XR stuff the last couple of weeks. We organised and hosting a Climate Hustings and none of the Tory candidates turned up. And I've been surrounded by people getting angry at idiots or saying that "they bring persecution on themselves" in regards to Jews and generally feeling fucking shitty... and letting out all this anger at anyone but Ian cunting Duncan Smith or smug sneering Mogg or any of the ghouls who have actually engineered this.

[Dewt]

Fence-sitting tools who gave any sort of legitimacy to the friendly face of the media did this more than anybody.

[Jobey]

For what it's worth, I stopped posting in this forum after being totally dogpiled and told I was making up the antisemitism I'd experienced. Some of which still readable in the previously posted thread. Anyway, off I fuck again. Be better.

[garbed_attic]

For what it's worth, I stopped posting in this forum after being totally dogpiled and told I was making up the antisemitism I'd experienced. Some of which still readable in the previously posted thread. Anyway, off I fuck again. Be better.

I think one side people hideously evil, doesn't mean there aren't shitty, unacceptable elements on the other side. It's possibly being non-neurotypical, but I really struggle sitting with the cognitive dissonance of reading and hearing some things that I think "yeah... that's anti-Semitic" of, but feeling like people I respect and love don't want to address that because the other side so desperately need resisting and are disingenuously using it in bad faith.

I've been in that situation with XR quite a lot over the last few months, partly on the issue of anti-Semitism after Roger Hallam's stupidly phrased comments, but especially after that hideously blinkered and ill-conceived tube action. Similarly, legitimate issues weaponised by people who just want to shut XR down. Doesn't mean we (and I mean XR here, but also Labour) shouldn't be better.

[Dewt]

For what it's worth, I stopped posting in this forum after being totally dogpiled and told I was making up the antisemitism I'd experienced. Some of which still readable in the previously posted thread. Anyway, off I fuck again. Be better.

It's because you extrapolated hateful nonsense from it like the little fuck-off that you are.

[Monsieur Verdoux]

It's complicated. On the one hand Jobey was dogmatic, inarticulate and fairly unwilling to entertain skepticism, and repeatedly conflated Zionism and Judaism, but on the other he was treated very poorly by some people who accused him of various things that were totally unreasonable. There were quite a few reasonable people who engaged with Jobey in good faith, but there were were others who just dogpiled with sneering and snarling and accusations of him being a troll or a sockpuppet or whatever. It was an ugly affair. The views that Jobey expressed are fairly commonly held and people are going to have to learn to engage with them a bit better if you want to win back trust at all. Less barking and piling on. I understand that some people engaged in good faith, and I don't want to downplay their efforts. But we do have to be a bit more sensitive to the reasons why people have these viewpoints

[Monsieur Verdoux]

I'm as pissed as a newt so I hope yhst makes sense

[garbed_attic]

I'm as pissed as a newt so I hope yhst makes sense

Reading through some of that thread, what you say seems about right imho... does being pissed mellow you? :O