The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?

[pigamus]

[Kelvin]

He was one of the MPs who resigned during the 2016  'chicken coup'.

https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/747435929942560768?lang=en

I know. Hence "relatively" quiet. He certainly wasn't someone who was constantly chipping away in public, like a lot of them were. He 's not made himself toxic with the left in the way a lot of the centrist MP's did. 

Oh, can I? Thanks for telling me.

Come on, Johnny, do I really need to write IMO before every line? It's a figure of speech. I personally believe you can see that many pro-Corbyn voters are sympathetic to Starmer based on the posts made in these threads.

It can hardly be called excitement that Starmer is in the race, either.

No, absolutely not. But a lack of enthusiasm benefits Starmer and the other centrist candidates.

I'm not sure exactly how all the people who joined to vote for Corbyn 2015-2016, who surely represent a majority, could include a sizeable number amongst them who think we should reverse everything that Corbyn pioneered.

I think Corbyn felt like a moment, an opportunity, a symbol of something, in a way that RLB (and the other leadership hopefuls) do not. While you and I might believe that RLB is necessary to continue the movement, for many, I believe that a combination of the dreadful election result, the weak positioning over Brexit, and the lack of a really good leftwing candidate will leave them feeling like the moment has passed. Not all the new members obviously - but enough to give Starmer a decent push when paired with his more "sensible centrist" vote.

RLB may be not be "exciting" (not that keen on some of her stances myself) but she does represent a promise that we can keep the wares on the stall, in the event that people become weary of the barefaced lying tory cunts they voted for.

A lot of people aren't looking at the longer term, though. In the absence of someone who really inspires them, I think many on the soft left will plump for the candidate that seems superficially most likely to win a general election - and received wisdom is that Starmer is that person. 

[Endicott]

Come on, Johnny, do I really need to write IMO before every line? It's a figure of speech. I personally believe you can see that many pro-Corbyn voters are sympathetic to Starmer based on the posts made in these threads.

My own personal take on reading these threads is that those popping up now being pro-Starmer were not particularly pro-Corbyn before. They vary from 'tolerated him' to 'never liked him'.

[pigamus]

Nobody's really "pro-Starmer" that I've seen. They'd be reluctantly willing to tolerate him if he could win a few seats back at the next election. That's it.

[Zetetic]

A nice safe nice pair of safe nice hands.

[Kelvin]

Nobody's really "pro-Starmer" that I've seen. They'd be reluctantly willing to tolerate him if he could win a few seats back at the next election. That's it.

Absolutely. As I said, the lack of a candidate to feel passionate about will benefit Starmer, as people will vote out of (imo, misguided) pragmatism. 

[pigamus]

A nice safe nice pair of safe nice hands.

Who do you think you're impressing with this kind of sneery bullshit? I'm no more impressed with Starmer than you are.

[Zetetic]

Just trying to cover-up my own cryptocentrism.

(My sneery bullshit wasn't aimed at you, or really anyone here, to be honest.)

[NoSleep]

Think the ignore script might be working too well.

Whoops

[Armin Meiwes]

Yeah 100% on that, not spoken to anyone that's excited about Starmer but of the Lab members I know most are, if not going for him first pref going for him higher pref than RLB. Not one were anti Corbyn and all had voted for him in the leadership but most just don't see her as a strong enough candidate, whether that's fair or not, even in this weak field.

[NoSleep]

I think Corbyn felt like a moment, an opportunity, a symbol of something, in a way that RLB (and the other leadership hopefuls) do not. While you and I might believe that RLB is necessary to continue the movement, for many, I believe that a combination of the dreadful election result, the weak positioning over Brexit, and the lack of a really good leftwing candidate will leave them feeling like the moment has passed. Not all the new members obviously - but enough to give Starmer a decent push when paired with his more "sensible centrist" vote.

Maybe, but it's unbelievable, as the "moment" hasn't "passed"; it's the same old struggle against the establishment highlighted for all (certainly the new members) to see clearly how the shitshow is run (the establishment were scared shitless and even let "remain" slip through their fingers rather than let Corbyn lead a VoNC, etc, etc). Rather than vote for Starmer, why not just leave, as it is tantamount to giving up anyway?

[pigamus]

People are just seriously fucking depressed. If the boring posh one is going to be a bit more effective than the boring other one - yeah, whatever. The Event was still only a few weeks ago. I don't blame anyone even slightly for just taking the path of least resistance. Is it a massive mistake in the long run? Fuck knows.

[NoSleep]

People are just seriously fucking depressed. If the boring posh one is going to be a bit more effective than the boring other one - yeah, whatever. The Event was still only a few weeks ago. I don't blame anyone even slightly for just taking the path of least resistance. Is it a massive mistake in the long run? Fuck knows.

It's a massive fucking mistake in the short term for sure.

[pigamus]

But there's no way of winning that argument. If Starmer wins back x number of seats in 2024 you can then say RLB would have won back more. Are you right? Fuck knows.

[NoSleep]

At this point it's worth arguing who is the best candidate, but not regarding who will win back the most seats by whatever means. I fear a Starmer led party would take us back to 2010 and 2015 and tombstone promises and mugs and bacon sandwiches.

We need to have an alternative waiting for people to vote for. The Tories are already shitting on those who voted for them, so we don't need to compromise.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I don't trust anyone with 'Sir' in their name not to continue enabling a system that rewards people enormously for committing crimes for which no laws have been passed. In fact as a lawyer he's probably instrumental in ensuring the laws never cover said crimes.

[king_tubby]

Fucking hell though, is there NOBODY who supports Starmer, or even thinks he's the least worst option, going to appreciate the absolute beasting he's going to get from the RW media over Warboys?

[Johnny Yesno]

Come on, Johnny, do I really need to write IMO before every line? It's a figure of speech. I personally believe you can see that many pro-Corbyn voters are sympathetic to Starmer based on the posts made in these threads.

No, you don't. You're telling me about all these former Corbynites getting behind Starmer and I'm challenging you to point to them because I sure as hell am not seeing them myself.

My own personal take on reading these threads is that those popping up now being pro-Starmer were not particularly pro-Corbyn before. They vary from 'tolerated him' to 'never liked him'.

Yes, the ones that turned up at my Labour branch's January meeting were mostly centrists looking for an opportunity to put the boot into Corbyn.

[Kelvin]

No, you don't. You're telling me about all these former Corbynites getting behind Starmer and I'm challenging you to point to them because I sure as hell am not seeing them myself.

I'm not going to go back through all the post-election threads picking out quotes and names. Over the last month, though, I have said several times that I was surprised by how many posters here were sympathetic to Starmer - and that wouldn't have included the usual suspects who were always very vocal in their dislike of Corbyn. The only specific name that springs to mind is Pancreas, who I'm sure we all agree is as decent and lefty as they come, but has, to my recollection, at least entertained the prospect of voting Starmer - although I'm assuming he's leaning back towards RLB, based on his recent post about Momentum phone banking. Him aside, I know I've seen a variety of posters contemplating Starmer on here - and again, I don't mean the usual shit-stirrers. He's certainly not toxic in the way Philips was.

[Armin Meiwes]

Corbyn HAS changed the labour party tho, I don't doubt that Starmer would happily ride it back to the centre if that were the path of least resistance but I genuinely don't think that's possible now, there will be no more mugs about controlling immigration, no more austerity lite, renationalisation will stay high up on the agenda and if a strong/inspiring left wing candidate comes in on the next leadership election then they will probably win.

[pigamus]

Sorry Armin but I think that's wishful thinking. Corbyn hasn't changed the Labour Party any more than the 2012 Olympics changed the United Kingdom. A thing happened, and then that thing was over.

[idunnosomename]

I agree corbyn's done a good job. especially since so many cunts were purged by the otherwise disaster December election. you cannot pop back to Blair-lite now.

[Zetetic]

Sorry Armin but I think that's wishful thinking. Corbyn hasn't changed the Labour Party any more than the 2012 Olympics changed the United Kingdom. A thing happened, and then that thing was over.

Ed Milliband changed the Labour Party then.

[idunnosomename]

Sorry Armin but I think that's wishful thinking. Corbyn hasn't changed the Labour Party any more than the 2012 Olympics changed the United Kingdom. A thing happened, and then that thing was over.

to push that metaphor, Corbyn emboldened people like me to get off their arse and join the labour party and campaign. the 2012 olympics didn't get any new citizens for the UK to change its make-up. it was just a fancy-pants show and then a bunch of running about with some infrastructure.

[idunnosomename]

I have thought recently that Jeremy Corbyn was simply too negative in his messages for the general population. he was fucking right to be angry at the Tories, but it doesn't work well with the general electorate, who don't want conflict in politics. they want everything to be tickety boo and chug along, aside from single interventions like the Brexit vote. but he's laid good groundwork and brought the Labour Party itself back where it needs to be. I think.

[Johnny Yesno]

I'm not going to go back through all the post-election threads picking out quotes and names. Over the last month, though, I have said several times that I was surprised by how many posters here were sympathetic to Starmer - and that wouldn't have included the usual suspects who were always very vocal in their dislike of Corbyn. The only specific name that springs to mind is Pancreas, who I'm sure we all agree is as decent and lefty as they come, but has, to my recollection, at least entertained the prospect of voting Starmer - although I'm assuming he's leaning back towards RLB, based on his recent post about Momentum phone banking. Him aside, I know I've seen a variety of posters contemplating Starmer on here - and again, I don't mean the usual shit-stirrers. He's certainly not toxic in the way Philips was.

Oh, I agree a number of us considered him but then we bailed when he started making centrist noises. I'm wondering who here would still vote for him.

[pigamus]

I have thought recently that Jeremy Corbyn was simply too negative in his messages for the general population.

I can't agree he was too negative when he inspired hundreds of thousands of young people to think that a different future might be possible.

[idunnosomename]

well no that was great. but I think even if you cloned tony blair with ed sheeran DNA to make a smiley centrist monster you couldn't have won the december 19 election against Get Brexit Done. so it's a moot point i guess.

[pigamus]

Well yeah, but Theresa May was trying to get Brexit done as well and look what happened to her.

[pancreas]

I'm not going to go back through all the post-election threads picking out quotes and names. Over the last month, though, I have said several times that I was surprised by how many posters here were sympathetic to Starmer - and that wouldn't have included the usual suspects who were always very vocal in their dislike of Corbyn. The only specific name that springs to mind is Pancreas, who I'm sure we all agree is as decent and lefty as they come, but has, to my recollection, at least entertained the prospect of voting Starmer - although I'm assuming he's leaning back towards RLB, based on his recent post about Momentum phone banking. Him aside, I know I've seen a variety of posters contemplating Starmer on here - and again, I don't mean the usual shit-stirrers. He's certainly not toxic in the way Philips was.

I have said, either here or on the Other Place (facebook) that I will not be ripping up my membership card if Starmer gets it. I think he is 'round' rather than 'pointy' in the sense of that NYB article comparing Corbyn and Sanders (respectively), and—related—I don't think he is sufficiently charismatic. The most 'pointy' persons we have are Thornberry and Rayner. I think we could see some more pointyness from Burgon and/or Butler in the future and am prepared to take a gamble on them. But I think RLB has some potential. We have two-three more months. Let's keep watching.

This is excellent:

https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1222869991118245888?s=20

Quite 'pointy'.