Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 08:00:17 PM

Login with username, password and session length

The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?

Started by Nowhere Man, December 13, 2019, 06:20:10 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

pigamus

Did you see that video where she's in the car and talking about how she's basically never going to get a holiday ever again?
Half of me thinks, "I do like you" and the other half of me thinks, "You are so overearnest, you are going to get crucified"

idunnosomename

now jess has gone i can report my membership card is safe

Kelvin

Quote from: pancreas on February 02, 2020, 12:36:35 AM
I have said, either here or on the Other Place (facebook) that I will not be ripping up my membership card if Starmer gets it. I think he is 'round' rather than 'pointy' in the sense of that NYB article comparing Corbyn and Sanders (respectively), and—related—I don't think he is sufficiently charismatic.

Well, then - while I was not intending it as a dig in the first place - I still want to apologise for misremembering your previous comments about Starmer. I thought you had been open to voting for him as first preference at one point. 

Factoring in this new information, I'm now predicting RLB will be in with a landslide   :)

pancreas

The closest I got was imagining Starmer with RLB as Shad Chancellor. Buelligan asked if I had lost my mind, and we left it at that.

pigamus

Well if she hates the idea fair enough, but I don't get why it's inconceivable

BlodwynPig

Quote from: pigamus on February 02, 2020, 01:08:57 AM
Well if she hates the idea fair enough, but I don't get why it's inconceivable

For some reason i imagine you are wearing winklepickers.

Carry on

thugler

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on February 01, 2020, 08:56:20 PM
No, you don't. You're telling me about all these former Corbynites getting behind Starmer and I'm challenging you to point to them because I sure as hell am not seeing them myself.

Yes, the ones that turned up at my Labour branch's January meeting were mostly centrists looking for an opportunity to put the boot into Corbyn.

That's me I'm afraid, i wanted clive lewis. And I'm not enthusiastic about starmer, but I'm strongly considering voting for him with rlb as 2nd choice. Agree with the perspective that he isn't going to be able to change everything back to blair centrism, the membership is strong (i personally joined and campaigned for the last election and I'm sticking around). Not entirely convinced he's the arch centrist he's being made out to be either. At worst an ed milibandish sort, but far more competent a politician. I'm still firmly behind the policies in the last manifesto and want as many as possible to be kept. Green new deal seems absolutely certain to remain under starmer for example.

Would those so firmly against him still vote for the left most candidate regardless of their ability? If rlb's place was taken by Abbott? I think they'd have second thoughts certainly. I'd really like to see rlb as part of the cabinet but I don't think she's a good candidate for leader at this point.

Agree that it's a weak field and likely none of them will win.

TrenterPercenter

bit negative. Johnson isn't going to have a great time of things so someone just needs to be there when the scales fall from peoples eyes, which will happen in time.

Paul Calf

They've openly stated that they don't care about public opinion. I think they have a plan to deal with unpopularity.

Blumf

What bugs me about a Starmer leadership is that, regardless of who's in charge, come the next election Labour will regain some seats (hopefully a lot), and you'll get the bleatings of centre-right going on about how this is proof centrism is popular and how sensible we should all be.

Armin Meiwes

Quote from: Blumf on February 02, 2020, 06:15:06 PM
What bugs me about a Starmer leadership is that, regardless of who's in charge, come the next election Labour will regain some seats (hopefully a lot), and you'll get the bleatings of centre-right going on about how this is proof centrism is popular and how sensible we should all be.

Not if he broadly sticks to the same agenda which (and I might turn out to be v naive here) I really believe he will. Also the benchmark is always going to be the 40% of 2017 now.

Buelligan

Why in the name of sanity would anyone willingly hand the Party to Starmer, unless, of course, losing the last election, losing Corbyn and having Brexit isn't enough shit pie to plough through.  Brilliant idea, let's give the Labour Party to a posh white male wooden-faced ventriloquist's dummy with eyes like a snowman, all of whose friends are dodge as fuck.  Why not, for a laugh?

If he'd stood up for Corbyn and the Party a bit more instead of wanking on about Brexit and polishing his cheeks, we probably wouldn't be where we are today.  Bollocks to reality though, let's give him a fucking whirl.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on February 02, 2020, 05:31:12 PM
bit negative. Johnson isn't going to have a great time of things so someone just needs to be there when the scales fall from peoples eyes, which will happen in time.

When's this happening. Remember someone saying this 5 years ago.

Armin Meiwes

Quote from: Buelligan on February 02, 2020, 07:41:33 PM
If he'd stood up for Corbyn and the Party a bit more instead of wanking on about Brexit and polishing his cheeks, we probably wouldn't be where we are today.  Bollocks to reality though, let's give him a fucking whirl.

Ah bit harsh really he is a veeerrrrrrry long way down that particular list.

Armin Meiwes

Quote from: BlodwynPig on February 02, 2020, 08:20:38 PM
When's this happening. Remember someone saying this 5 years ago.

Yeah was gonna say! That's not really how it works for the Tory party any more is it - they'll spend the next five years looking for the next cultural wedge issue to get enough people to vote against their own economic interest, regardless of their personal opinion of Johnson, and if they get four years in and he looks like electoral poison they'll just ditch him anyway.



idunnosomename

they're trying to build on the election defeat to recruit young people to the conservative cause. they are startlingly bad at it. take that to heart at least.

Buelligan

Quote from: Armin Meiwes on February 02, 2020, 08:26:23 PM
Ah bit harsh really he is a veeerrrrrrry long way down that particular list.

No, he isn't. 

Armin Meiwes

Quote from: Buelligan on February 02, 2020, 09:22:20 PM
No, he isn't.

Well surely he's below every MP that briefed against Corbyn and that refused to serve in his shadow cabinet (and that's a pretty long list).

Buelligan


Armin Meiwes

"Who was the least loyal to Corbyn out of 4 MPs standing to be leader" is not really the same as "he's probably the reason for where we are today" though is it? And he's not even in 4th place in that particular list (that would be Nandy).

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: idunnosomename on February 02, 2020, 09:09:08 PM
they're trying to build on the election defeat to recruit young people to the conservative cause. they are startlingly bad at it. take that to heart at least.


Would it be particularly un-pc if I said young conservatives are, without fail, a bunch of fucking freaks?


idunnosomename

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on February 02, 2020, 09:54:57 PM
Would it be particularly un-pc if I said young conservatives are, without fail, a bunch of fucking freaks?

i'm pregnant

and i've got AIDS

and i've joined the young conservatives

*kevin eldon reacts*

thugler

Quote from: Buelligan on February 02, 2020, 07:41:33 PM
Why in the name of sanity would anyone willingly hand the Party to Starmer, unless, of course, losing the last election, losing Corbyn and having Brexit isn't enough shit pie to plough through.  Brilliant idea, let's give the Labour Party to a posh white male wooden-faced ventriloquist's dummy with eyes like a snowman, all of whose friends are dodge as fuck.  Why not, for a laugh?

If he'd stood up for Corbyn and the Party a bit more instead of wanking on about Brexit and polishing his cheeks, we probably wouldn't be where we are today.  Bollocks to reality though, let's give him a fucking whirl.

Noones 'handing' the party over. We are the party and membership is massive. Belly aching about Corbyn is really irrelevant now, it's about the policies he advocated, unfortunately he himself became an issue with selling them to voters rather than the policies themselves. We've got to move on, not try and salvage his reputation in the eyes of the public who's minds seem to be made up.

Anyone who thinks starmer can just announce Blairism without absolutely tanking in popularity is delusional.

Kelvin

Quote from: thugler on February 02, 2020, 10:34:00 PM
Noones 'handing' the party over. We are the party and membership is massive. Belly aching about Corbyn is really irrelevant now, it's about the policies he advocated, unfortunately he himself became an issue with selling them to voters rather than the policies themselves. We've got to move on, not try and salvage his reputation in the eyes of the public who's minds seem to be made up.

Anyone who thinks starmer can just announce Blairism without absolutely tanking in popularity is delusional.

But once they are elected, they don't need to worry about their popularity with the membership. They can pursue their own ideology, the one shared by the media class, the PLP, and a portion of the electorate that they think matters the most - the middle class. Starmers not going to announce a sudden move to Blairism, but at the very least, we will see a move back towards the watered down nothingy politics of Ed Miliband, and even if the left isn't shut out completely (by making it harder for a left-winger to stand in future leadership elections), at the very least, the left will be excluded once more from the machinery of politics, setting us back to the start with any future leader.

Corbyn suffered a defining, permanently damaging hit at the start of his leadership, because he and his team lacked experience in opposition. If you ever want to have the slightest hope of a left wing prime minister, we need the left running the opposition for long enough that they have experience, like-minded MP's, an active, engaged membership, and a public that sees them as the new norm, not a dalliance with a fringe ideology. By electing Starmer, or any centrist, you set the clock back to 0. None of the current leaderships hopefuls have much chance of winning an election after boundary changes (etc), so we might as well back the one who will keep the left in play, rather than the one who sets us back again - most likely for no electoral benefit whatsoever.             

idunnosomename

the clp adjacent to me endorsed nandy-pandy and also "raynor" which gives me a big chinny reckon they have the slightest fucking clue what they're doing

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Kelvin on February 02, 2020, 11:15:50 PM
But once they are elected, they don't need to worry about their popularity with the membership. They can pursue their own ideology, the one shared by the media class, the PLP, and a portion of the electorate that they think matters the most - the middle class. Starmers not going to announce a sudden move to Blairism, but at the very least, we will see a move back towards the watered down nothingy politics of Ed Miliband, and even if the left isn't shut out completely (by making it harder for a left-winger to stand in future leadership elections), at the very least, the left will be excluded once more from the machinery of politics, setting us back to the start with any future leader.

Corbyn suffered a defining, permanently damaging hit at the start of his leadership, because he and his team lacked experience in opposition. If you ever want to have the slightest hope of a left wing prime minister, we need the left running the opposition for long enough that they have experience, like-minded MP's, an active, engaged membership, and a public that sees them as the new norm, not a dalliance with a fringe ideology. By electing Starmer, or any centrist, you set the clock back to 0. None of the current leaderships hopefuls have much chance of winning an election after boundary changes (etc), so we might as well back the one who will keep the left in play, rather than the one who sets us back again - most likely for no electoral benefit whatsoever.           

This is bang on and it's in response to someone who undermines my earlier argument, so fair play to you.

I don't know what it's been like in other branches but the entryists (and I use that term provocatively because, frankly, fuck them) who turned up at my last branch meeting managed to turn us Corbynites against Starmer with their uncompromising stance.

colacentral

Quote from: Armin Meiwes on February 02, 2020, 08:28:26 PM
Yeah was gonna say! That's not really how it works for the Tory party any more is it - they'll spend the next five years looking for the next cultural wedge issue to get enough people to vote against their own economic interest, regardless of their personal opinion of Johnson, and if they get four years in and he looks like electoral poison they'll just ditch him anyway.

They've been incredibly lucky to avoid a recession, that's why. Until the next one, which is coming very, very soon, we can't dispel the myths that 2008 was caused by too much spending, and that the Tories are a safe pair of hands.

Last time I posted this someone replied with a link to this site, interesting:

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2020/01/fed-repos-have-plowed-6-6-trillion-to-wall-street-in-four-months-thats-34-of-its-feeding-tube-during-epic-financial-crash/

I feel like the above is helping Trump's election chances by feeding the narrative that the US economy is doing great. It either collapses before then or if Sanders wins then maybe it's a good opportunity to pull the plug and blame the crash on socialism. When that happens we'll have that plus Brexit fallout to deal with.

Consumer debt is high, more high street shops and factories are closing. China's economy is slowing down. Deutschebank has been rumoured to be on the brink of collapse for years. Impossible to see us making it another five years without the first domino dropping.