Author Topic: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?  (Read 73141 times)

Dewt

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2019, 08:39:48 PM »
Is a prime example of the coarsening of language and deterioration of form I was referring to earlier. At least the old left were well read and well adjusted. You’d have to think twice debating with a citation-ready liberal 15-20 yrs ago. Now all you have is swears and histrionic emotion. It is absolutely right that you are not in a position of power. Your idea of diplomacy is telling everyone to fuck off and running off to have a cry. Grow up.
Fucking hell the Townswomen's Guild has arrived.

pigamus

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2019, 08:44:34 PM »
Of course, when we do leave, the next smear's going to be about how Labour will force us to rejoin if we ever get back in power.

Nowhere Man

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2019, 08:52:01 PM »
Of course, when we do leave, the next smear's going to be about how Labour will force us to rejoin if we ever get back in power.

Reason to relish when Brexit crashes and burns like it inevitably will.

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2019, 08:53:26 PM »
It is imperative that we convene an annual national conference to determine once and for all (and then all over again the next year) who is allowed in Jeremy's treehouse, and who by contrast is a red tory blairite traitor worse eviller than a scum who must be PURGED. Voters love this stuff.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 09:20:50 PM by undeliberated »

NoSleep

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2019, 08:56:25 PM »
And therein lies the problem. Tories till Infinity. Thanks guys.

Centrism is gone; the Tories have evacuated the centre, too. That just leaves you.

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2019, 09:56:45 PM »
It's hard to know where Labour goes from here because, as someone mentioned in the election thread, it's not so much that they were offering policies people couldn't get behind but that it was Labour offering them. How are Labour supposed to deal with being made a totem for everything wrong with left-wing politics and social justice in general? What Labour are meant to do about Doctor Who, Star Wars, or ideological politics in art, film and TV, to take a few examples from the gloatings of the usual suspects here over the years, I don't know.

Then you have consider that some people might have fallen out of love with left-wing politics, and in turn Labour, over something as little as having a few trying experiences with hard-left dickheads online. Or they watched one too many YouTube videos by Sargon and PJW, like some people I know. Again, what are Labour supposed to do about that?

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2019, 10:01:17 PM »
#notmyclowne

Absolutely guffawed to fuck. Bravo.


Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2019, 10:14:17 PM »
Read that earlier.

Depressing.

Blinder Data

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2019, 10:20:13 PM »
It sounds simplistic but I guess the first thing the Labour party needs to focus on is finding a way to win back all the seats it lost last night. They were heartland seats and if it can't win them, it's nowhere close to winning a majority. Obvs you'd want to win more and build on the 2017 gains, but it's extremely difficult for a party to move from where Labour is right now to a majority in one election - so first things first. Worryingly, last night created marginals (e.g. Doncaster) where they didn't exist before, so they'll need to be careful the Tories don't try and expand their capture of the 'Red Wall'. I know people are angry but the way Tory/Brexit switchers have been talked about on Twitter is totally counter-productive - we need to convince people, not insult them.

Members need to elect a leader who won't have horrendous personal ratings with the public like Corbyn did and can reconnect with voters in the seats that were lost. "They'll monster any Labour leader, it doesn't matter who it is" you might say. It really does - if your leader is less popular than the opposition, he/she is not going to be PM. All the better if it's someone who is not from London. I don't want a bland centrist but we can't just vote for the most left-wing candidate regardless; we need someone who inspires the confidence of ordinary folk - Miliband and Corbyn clearly did not do that.

Don't let the energy that has been generated post-2015 die out or listen to the Blairites who haven't a clue. Where would Labour be if it became a full-on Remainer party? Absolutely nowhere. Perhaps when Brexit is "done", Labour can have the space to promote its policy offer. And can we start getting some actual slogans, please? "Get Brexit Done" was simple, repeated by all Tories and evidently was a huge success. Labour's messaging for this election was crap, it looked gutless in the face of the ruthless Tory machine.

Last night's loss was multi-faceted, but these constituencies have been moving away from Labour for a while now. Maybe those Blue Labour wankers had the right idea, Christ...

Endicott

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2019, 10:27:33 PM »
The infinitesimal amount of research I've done suggests that that was the most positive response I could have expected.

edit you bastards are posting too frequently. was reply to chveik

Urinal Cake

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2019, 10:33:49 PM »
A much better analysis than those by professional pundits.

The only thing I'd add is that there is a grateful immigrant vs ungrateful immigrant narrative as well. A distinction not necessarily due to religion, skin colour, 'hard work' or time spent in the country. I think that's why the anti-Semitism struck a nerve, 'Here are Jewish immigrants and refugees who are grateful to England. Yet Corbyn wants us to side with Muslims who not only want to kill us but also complain about how racist we are. No actually Muslims and their supporters are racist against Jews.'

Twit 2

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2019, 11:08:29 PM »
Listen to this guy https://mobile.twitter.com/LukePagarani/status/1205487970897342464

An interesting and credible take. The bit that chimes with me is younger people not even realising socialism is a thing, liking the concept in principle but also being bemused about the possibility of such a thing. Woman under 30 who I work with (degree educated professional) didn’t know which leader belonged to which party yesterday (“Jeremy Corbyn, is he Labour or Conservative?”). How are you meant to engage with people who are that lacking in any sort of basic political knowledge? In general, I’m dismayed by the lack of historical awareness, curiosity, world view and knowledge of all sorts of people. The Tory education system will never educate people on this, social media will distort and narrow the facts. What’s left? Maybe the big push from activists and charities needs to be in informing and educating people.

king_tubby

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2019, 11:36:02 PM »
I've been out - have we done Creasey and her crew cheering Labour losses in the pub yet?

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2019, 12:46:44 AM »
Is a prime example of the coarsening of language and deterioration of form I was referring to earlier. At least the old left were well read and well adjusted. You’d have to think twice debating with a citation-ready liberal 15-20 yrs ago. Now all you have is swears and histrionic emotion. It is absolutely right that you are not in a position of power. Your idea of diplomacy is telling everyone to fuck off and running off to have a cry. Grow up.

No it's not.  People playing whack-a-troll is of course not evidence of widespread language coarsening and form deterioration, though I appreciate that some people like to describe their own personal experiences as epic problems that the entire world must be facing because it makes them feel better.

I'd encourage you to stop posting such garbage in these threads if you don't want to be called out on it.  Don't complain that people are at the end of their tether with you when they have shown you endless patience up to this point.

Don't forget that Boris Johnson getting a landslide victory in this general election is pretty devastating for those of us in these threads with capacity for empathy.  Yes we're angry and upset about it - not for selfish reasons but because ordinary people are going to die from ongoing Tory austerity measures, and the NHS is going to be privatised.  This election result is a tragedy.  So yeah some of us might be a bit uppity at the moment but you shouldn't assume it's all about you.

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2019, 12:51:52 AM »
I've been out - have we done Creasey and her crew cheering Labour losses in the pub yet?

What?

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2019, 01:02:28 AM »
Didn't most of the Momentum lot come in under Milliband's join for three quid thing? That's your problem, just there, just where I said it was.

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2019, 01:23:50 AM »
Didn't most of the Momentum lot come in under Milliband's join for three quid thing? That's your problem, just there, just where I said it was.

Not sure what you mean.  Do you mean anyone can now join the membership and sway the leadership to a right-wing option?

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2019, 01:24:27 AM »
Right-wingers have been complaining about 'the coarsening of language' forever; these days it seems to be mainly just a way of dismissing any arguments that aren't couched in snide above-it-all rhetoric. It's invoked by the sort of people who think having a Twitter avatar of an Ancient Greek philosopher makes them Allan fucking Bloom.

And wasn't the join-for-three-quid thing supported at the time by centrist Labour types because they thought the unions stitched up the 2010 leadership election in favour of (the wrong) Milliband?

NoSleep

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2019, 07:37:54 AM »
It sounds simplistic but I guess the first thing the Labour party needs to focus on is finding a way to win back all the seats it lost last night.

I think those seats will default back to Labour unless Johnson's promises turn out to be true (in which case Labour were indirectly responsible due to their shining manifesto). What will people see change for the better in their everyday lives now they've gifted the Tories and Brexit a free ticket?

Buelligan

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2019, 07:52:25 AM »
I agree.  I think returning the tories this time is rather like when the British public kept punching itself in the face and reelecting Thatcher.  It takes a while for the pain to get through, that's the sad part, the thing Labour were trying to prevent.

Paul Calf

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2019, 07:54:47 AM »
Lies, scapegoating and illusion will keep the Tories going for a good while yet. People are still buying the ‘Labour caused the current recession / Tories are good at the economy’ bullshit.

Johnson will last five years, and he will spend that time fundamentally altering the British (or what’s left of British) state to make sure removing him or his successors will be next to impossible.

It will take a revolution to remove him. Fix that as fact in your head, forget about fighting him in Parliament and proceed.

Paul Calf

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2019, 07:57:43 AM »
For the last 10 years or so, people have been asking “What if the surveillance state we’ve been building falls into the hands of malicious actors?”

That has now happened. Get TOR. Learn to use it.

https://www.torproject.org/


NoSleep

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2019, 07:59:49 AM »
The battleground will change from Brexit to the British constitution. What are the chances that the judges and the House of Lords can buffer us from the worst?

Johnny Yesno

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2019, 08:22:11 AM »
Yes we're angry and upset about it - not for selfish reasons but because ordinary people are going to die from ongoing Tory austerity measures, and the NHS is going to be privatised.  This election result is a tragedy.  So yeah some of us might be a bit uppity at the moment but you shouldn't assume it's all about you.

I was really looking forward to telling my likeable and decent boss that we'd no longer need her services regarding the Xmas food bank collection she's been organising at work for the last couple of years. I thought it was just temporary but this shit is already normalised, isn't it?

I thought there was a fair chance that the streets in my city would soon be empty of homeless people too.

If the only things we could have done was to end these two outrages, I'd have still felt like I'd won the fucking lottery. And that's why I spent most of yesterday at work on the verge of tears. Of course, a narcissist and psychopath like SWP wouldn't understand that.

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2019, 09:15:55 AM »
I honestly think getting a leader with less baggage, for right or wrong, will do a hell of a lot of good. Someone who can't be attacked or rebuffed with any mention of the IRA or AS.

Another massive factor is Brexit. If that ever gets sorted out it will level the playing field a lot as the Tories can't use it as their only "positive" trait.

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2019, 09:27:27 AM »
The IRA stuff is maybe avoidable, but the AS stuff will be thrown at literally any candidate who has ever shaken hands with anyone who has ever expressed solidarity with Palestine, and that combined with incidents of AS at the members level that will not disappear with Corbyn, and it's never going to go away. It's a ready made smear for anyone with anybody with leftist foreign policy, and a ready made smear for anyone who is seen as not being Islamophobic enough, as right wing Zionists have a tendency to see religious conflict as a zero sum game. So the AS stuff will be there for any kind of left candidate, that'll always be uphill.

NoSleep

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Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2019, 09:46:42 AM »
I would guess the EHRC report is going to find no case against the Labour Party, otherwise, I think, it would have been fast tracked to coincide with the election. I don't really know how long it is before the report appears, but I fear they can keep it looming until at least beyond a leadership election to keep the pain going.

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2019, 09:52:24 AM »
The IRA stuff is maybe avoidable, but the AS stuff will be thrown at literally any candidate who has ever shaken hands with anyone who has ever expressed solidarity with Palestine, and that combined with incidents of AS at the members level that will not disappear with Corbyn, and it's never going to go away. It's a ready made smear for anyone with anybody with leftist foreign policy, and a ready made smear for anyone who is seen as not being Islamophobic enough, as right wing Zionists have a tendency to see religious conflict as a zero sum game. So the AS stuff will be there for any kind of left candidate, that'll always be uphill.

It will always be hard but you have to fight your battles how they need to be fought. In this case, however wrong it might be, maybe they just need to be more visible about the complaints process and what they are doing with the admittedly small number of cases. I understand Corbyn's stance of not giving the accusations credence but that clearly didn't work. A more open, media savvy leader might avoid some of those pitfalls. It is shit that to some degree we have to sink to their level in terms of "optics" and all that shit but as long as the policies are still there it might be a bitter tea worth drinking

Re: The future of the Labour Party: Where does it go from here?
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2019, 10:04:10 AM »
Hardly anybody cares about the anti semitism stuff in my experience. It’s not raised so much as a shrug, either from the angle of there being substance to it, or it being a cynical lie. Even most Jews seemed barely affected by it. There does appear to be fairly widespread acknowledgement, even from the right, that it was a disingenuous smear campaign being regurgitated and amplified solely in an effort to turn people against the socialists. But even then, nobody seems bothered.

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