Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 04:31:55 PM

Login with username, password and session length

The dialog in Irvine Welsh

Started by Sony Walkman Prophecies, December 16, 2019, 06:25:17 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Is exceptional. I've struggled over the years to find authors with the same ear for realistic speech as Mr. Welsh. Any suggestions?

N.B. Doesn't have to be vernacular Scots.

bgmnts

I suppose it would only really apply to books set in Britain around my time, and even then i'd be wondering. I couldn't verify the authenticity of dialogue in Shakespeare's canon or Homer's Iliad or Shelley's Frankenstein, fuck knows.

I get the impression Stephen King's dialogue is realistic enough.


Lisa Jesusandmarychain

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on December 16, 2019, 06:25:17 PM
Is exceptional. I've struggled over the years to find authors with the same ear for realistic speech as Mr. Welsh. Any suggestions?

N.B. Doesn't have to be vernacular Scots.

James Kelman, who I think the young Welshie may have read one or two books by.

Realistic dialogue, absolutely unbelievable plots. Still, at least he didn't kill any dogs in that last book.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on December 16, 2019, 06:57:27 PM
James Kelman, who I think the young Welshie may have read one or two books by.

Realistic dialogue, absolutely unbelievable plots. Still, at least he didn't kill any dogs in that last book.

Brilliant. Thanks! :) Looking up now.

Lisa Jesusandmarychain

Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on December 16, 2019, 07:20:27 PM
Brilliant. Thanks! :) Looking up now.

You havenae heard of James Kelman before, ya radge? Start off with his short stories collections ( specifically " Not Not While The Giro" and " Greyhound For Breakfast", but there's shitloads of 'em), then have a read of " How Late It Was, How Late", he's a fucking Barry wee writer.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

I think I've come across the name before, but never bothered to read anything by him. Will check out his stuff as suggested!

Yeah when Welsh veers off his usual beat and writes a book that isn't in Scots vernacular he loses a lot of his power as an author. The joy of being inside the head of some radge cunt like Juice Terry is 80% of the enjoyment of his books.

gilbertharding

A Dance to the Music of Time has amazing dialogue, although it's all supposed to be the memoir of the narrator (who is a writer), so presumably all speech is 'as remembered'.

Stringham's last conversation with Nick is particularly memorable.

Lisa Jesusandmarychain

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Kingsley Amis used to write the most stilted, stylised unrealistic dialogue I ever did read.

Dannyhood91

The dialogue and the descriptions of characters are absolutely spot on with the authenticity with Mr Welsh. He's just great at putting small bits of reality into his books like in TS when Rentons on the bus and becomes silently enraged at all the people on
there including some woman listening to Golden Years.

Mister Six

Always liked the dialogue in Elmore Leonard's novels, and especially the way the characters' speech patterns would bleed into the third-person narration.

idunnosomename

Quote from: bgmnts on December 16, 2019, 06:50:56 PM
I suppose it would only really apply to books set in Britain around my time, and even then i'd be wondering. I couldn't verify the authenticity of dialogue in Shakespeare's canon or Homer's Iliad or Shelley's Frankenstein, fuck knows.

I get the impression Stephen King's dialogue is realistic enough.
fiction shouldn't be reality though. it should just convey the sense of reality while telling a clear story. you dont want people forgetting why they've walked into a room or breaking conversation because they're busting for a pee.

Shakespeare is extremely artificial to the point where his characters speak in rhyming couplets yet he still conveys genuine character. Homer I don't know enough about the textual history of it at all (except that it was initially part of an oral tradition).
Frankenstein is epistolary so all the dialogue is recalled by the narrator anyway.

Frankenstein is fucking awesome if someone happens not to have read it by the way. Read it tomorrow.

Danger Man

Quote from: Lisa Jesusandmarychain on December 16, 2019, 08:00:06 PM
You havenae heard of James Kelman before, ya radge? Start off with his short stories collections ( specifically " Not Not While The Giro" and " Greyhound For Breakfast", but there's shitloads of 'em), then have a read of " How Late It Was, How Late", he's a fucking Barry wee writer.


I'd say The Burn is Kelman's finest short story and for somebody new to him A Disaffection is the best novel to start with. But it's all good.

Once you've read Kelman you'll have a better understanding of Limmy.

Jockice

I think my favourite bit of Welsh writing is when Begbie tears out the reserved tickets on the train and then the bloke who should have sat there complains he's first referred to as wearing John Lennon specs and thereafter as 'this John Lennon cunt.' Dunno why but that just greatly amuses me. And I know it's not dialogue either except in Begbie's own head.

Pingers

Swing Hammer Swing! by Jeff Torrington is in a similar vein and very good if I remember right. The only line I really remember is 'Get yer Proddy arse off that mantrap son, there's some serious shitin' to be done here!'

The superlative Riddley Walker is written entirely in its own vernacular which is a big part of what makes it work.

Vineland by Thomas Pynchon is not written in one idiom but flits between Mexican, drawling Cali stoner, crazy Japanese guy Takeshi and others and really breathes - a fucking great book, ese

Pingers

#15
I've just finished reading Last Exit to Brooklyn by Hubert Selby Jr. The foreword is by Irvine Welsh, and it's clear why; the book is realist fiction set in a small working class neighbourhood and although Selby said he had to tone the accent down to make it intelligible to most readers, it sings off the page. "Fuckyou flatfoot, go and fuckyaself yasonofabitch if you men don't breakitup we'll run you all in", "Im strickly a cunt man myself. I got more cunt than ya could fuck in a year. Shit, last night I had ta chase one away, a good looking bitch too, but I promised the old lady Id throw a fuckinner, you know how it is", and numerous instances of "I hope takrist.."

It's a great book. I mean actually great, not just very good. I do not think I have read a more excruciating book than this. In his afterword, Selby writes that he saw his job as not getting in the way of the people (not 'characters') in the book, to not filter them through his thoughts and judgements, but to present them as directly and as honestly as he could. And that really carries a force, because they are all trying to cling on to the one thing they have that stops them from going under, or that no-one else has, whether that's a motorbike, a job or a big pair of tits, and this means they are all needy, so very needy. They need each other even though they hate each other, they need money, they need a fuck - everything is transacted.

It is a grim-fest, no doubt, but is as compelling as it is horrifying. A good example is Harry, the union man ("he smiled his smile"), who hates his wife. He hates her so much, and is so confused about his sexuality, that he hatefucks her every night. He fucks her so hard because he hates her so much, and because he fucks her so hard she comes so much, and this is the only reason she stays with him, because in all other respects she hates him too. Bound - by hatefucking. And I wanted to look away all the through the section about Harry, his relentless fuck-ups, his delusion that people looked up to him, his willingness to be taken advantage of for company, to feel like a big man, because there was nothing in the way between me and him to soften the blows.

That is great writing. I wanted it to keep going and I wanted it to stop immediately. Selby is the man.


gib

Quote from: Danger Man on December 18, 2019, 10:16:23 PM

I'd say The Burn is Kelman's finest short story and for somebody new to him A Disaffection is the best novel to start with. But it's all good.

Once you've read Kelman you'll have a better understanding of Limmy.

nice one, will start off with The Burn

magval

Quote from: Pingers on April 27, 2020, 01:15:17 PM
I've just finished reading Last Exit to Brooklyn by Hubert Selby Jr. The foreword is by Irvine Welsh, and it's clear why; the book is realist fiction set in a small working class neighbourhood and although Selby said he had to tone the accent down to make it intelligible to most readers, it sings off the page. "Fuckyou flatfoot, go and fuckyaself yasonofabitch if you men don't breakitup we'll run you all in", "Im strickly a cunt man myself. I got more cunt than ya could fuck in a year. Shit, last night I had ta chase one away, a good looking bitch too, but I promised the old lady Id throw a fuckinner, you know how it is", and numerous instances of "I hope takrist.."

It's a great book. I mean actually great, not just very good. I do not think I have read a more excruciating book than this. In his afterword, Selby writes that he saw his job as not getting in the way of the people (not 'characters') in the book, to not filter them through his thoughts and judgements, but to present them as directly and as honestly as he could. And that really carries a force, because they are all trying to cling on to the one thing they have that stops them from going under, or that no-one else has, whether that's a motorbike, a job or a big pair of tits, and this means they are all needy, so very needy. They need each other even though they hate each other, they need money, they need a fuck - everything is transacted.

It is a grim-fest, no doubt, but is as compelling as it is horrifying. A good example is Harry, the union man ("he smiled his smile"), who hates his wife. He hates her so much, and is so confused about his sexuality, that he hatefucks her every night. He fucks her so hard because he hates her so much, and because he fucks her so hard she comes so much, and this is the only reason she stays with him, because in all other respects she hates him too. Bound - by hatefucking. And I wanted to look away all the through the section about Harry, his relentless fuck-ups, his delusion that people looked up to him, his willingness to be taken advantage of for company, to feel like a big man, because there was nothing in the way between me and him to soften the blows.

That is great writing. I wanted it to keep going and I wanted it to stop immediately. Selby is the man.

Added this to me Amazon wishlist the other day on your recommendation at a tenner. As of today it's down to £3.

Use Neil's affiliate link if you're buying - https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/board,29.0.html

Cheers, Pingers!

Pabst

Quote from: Danger Man on December 18, 2019, 10:16:23 PM

I'd say The Burn is Kelman's finest short story and for somebody new to him A Disaffection is the best novel to start with. But it's all good.

Once you've read Kelman you'll have a better understanding of Limmy.

Agree with A disaffection being a great place to start, found a copy in a charity shop when I was about 17 after having read a couple of stories in a borders. One of a large handful of books that genuinely changed my ideas of what novels were capable of. How late it was, how late is also incredible, of course.

His essays are also well worth a look, the first one includes his rather excellent essay on Kafka which was to be his university thesis amongst a host of political writings. An admirable man all round.

His relentless obsession with accurately exploring the first person ( outlined in the Kafka essay) makes the set up for various books exciting in a strangely high concept way: ' Oh he's writing from the perspective of a child' etc.

Also apparently the reason Ian Rankin became a crime writer is because his father despised Kelman.

poodlefaker

Eimear McBride's A Girl is a Half-Formed Thing was compared to Joyce a lot, but what it really reminded me of was Kelman, esp. How Late It Was...: that same one-note interior monologue, but with little humour, which makes it quite exhausting.

On a similarly grim Celtic alcoholic tip,  I'd recommend Janice Galloway's The Trick is to Keep Breathing and Ron Butlin's The Sound of My Voice.