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March 28, 2024, 03:42:35 PM

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What Non-New Films Have You Seen? (2020 Edition)

Started by Small Man Big Horse, January 01, 2020, 05:03:07 PM

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greenman

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on January 28, 2020, 12:34:00 PM
I did see it in the mid 90s when the Watershed in Bristol had a Wenders season, but fucked if I can remember what it looked like as my common reference point was the pan and scan VHS video.

I would say Wings of Desire and Paris, Texas are the most likely IF it were to happen, but I don't think it will, at least not in a physical media form - 4K UHD uptake has been incredibly poor (even in Japan sales of both the equipment and UHD releases have been massively disappointing) and most of the boutique distributors aren't bothering at all.  Criterion have been hinting at their first UHD release for years, with insiders long saying it would be spine 1000 (spine 1025 has recently been announced and still no hint of a UHD from them), Arrow have said they'll never bother as it's too much of a loss leader, and another one (might be 88 Films, but can't remember now) were prepping a few that were all cancelled for much the same reason.

I've read several industry and tech experts refer to 4K UHD as being this generation's laserdisc, only with MUCH higher production overheads, and the current expectation is that it will die a slow and quiet death. 

Mind you, physical media sales in general are falling as well of course, with more and more people streaming, downloading and, cunting Norah, watching on their phones or tablets, which will only do further damage to UHD's longevity - there are those that have said 4K UHD will be the last mass produced physical media, especially as Sony (or whichever manufacturer it was) has ceased R&D on blu-ray's planned replacement (green ray or terrawatt laser or summat, originally announced the same day as blu-ray was announced victor of the HD war). 

Being a huge film buff, I'm quite concerned at the prospect of physical media going altogether - I read a while ago an example given of a Robert Mitchum film (can't remember which one), which has only been released once on DVD in the States in the very early days of it and hasn't been released in any territory on any other format since, and the only way you can see it is on whichever streaming platform it's currently on.  So, for arguement's sake to illustrate the point, let's say this film is currently available on Netflix.  When that runs out it then transfers over to, say, ComCast.  Which is not available in the UK...

That's a very real future reality if physical media goes completely, that plus the possibility of the ability to permanently download and own digital copies being taken away.  Scary stuff.

I suspect part of it is that producing UHD disks probably means a significant investment in production from these labels that there not going to take lightly? Studio Channel does seem to be almost functioning along the same kind of lines though as a 3rd party releaser doing UHD, there versions of Angel Heart and Don't Look Now are all excellent.

UHD failing to become a universal disk standard(honestly I always doubted it would) could actually mean its more suitable for those kinds of releases though aiming at the hardcore market who will probably rebuy films if there's a quality upgrade.

Besides the ownership side one big issue with UHD streaming is that bitrates are much lower, a UHD disk is up to 100 gig isn't it?

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: greenman on January 28, 2020, 12:55:27 PM
I suspect part of it is that producing UHD disks probably means a significant investment in production from these labels that there not going to take lightly? Studio Channel does seem to be almost functioning along the same kind of lines though as a 3rd party releaser doing UHD, there versions of Angel Heart and Don't Look Now are all excellent.

UHD failing to become a universal disk standard(honestly I always doubted it would) could actually mean its more suitable for those kinds of releases though aiming at the hardcore market who will probably rebuy films if there's a quality upgrade.

Besides the ownership side one big issue with UHD streaming is that bitrates are much lower, a UHD disk is up to 100 gig isn't it?

Canal/Lions Gate is the only small label making a proper go of it at the moment (Apocalypse Now is jaw-dropping), leaving only the big boys doing it for their own catalogues, and they only seem to be doing it for titles that have always had a history of selling well in the home video market (a few eyebrows were raised when Gremlins got the 4K go-ahead, but it's long been one of Warner's biggest selling titles as far back as its original video release).

Yeah, UHD is up to 100gb, but I don't think there are that many that have taken full advantage of it.

greenman

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on January 28, 2020, 01:11:03 PM
Canal/Lions Gate is the only small label making a proper go of it at the moment (Apocalypse Now is jaw-dropping), leaving only the big boys doing it for their own catalogues, and they only seem to be doing it for titles that have always had a history of selling well in the home video market (a few eyebrows were raised when Gremlins got the 4K go-ahead, but it's long been one of Warner's biggest selling titles as far back as its original video release).

Yeah, UHD is up to 100gb, but I don't think there are that many that have taken full advantage of it.

One issue I spose is that a lot of those films haven't ever had transfers aimed at a more hard-core market previously, the difference between rushed out HD version that's had a load of DNR on it and the UHD is perhaps greater than it would be with upgrades to a lot of Criterion, Arrow, HD Bluray releases etc?

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: greenman on January 28, 2020, 01:20:59 PM
One issue I spose is that a lot of those films haven't ever had transfers aimed at a more hard-core market previously, the difference between rushed out HD version that's had a load of DNR on it and the UHD is perhaps greater than it would be with upgrades to a lot of Criterion, Arrow, HD Bluray releases etc?

Ignoring the colour palette changing I referred to earlier (which is a stylistic choice and not part of the transfer process), for any higher definition remaster or transfer (regardless of where you are on the pixel scale) there's a very heavy reliance on the source, and that source can be the quality of the best print available, or even before that from the raw negative.  In other words a film like Last House On the Left which was shot on cheap grubby 16mm...well, the phrase "you can't polish a turd" applies, so something like that is NEVER going to look substantially better on blu-ray or UHD. 

And yeah, your point is true.  With most new releases of older films these days I spend a LONG time researching the best version to get in terms of picture quality, and there's absolutely no rule of thumb with any of it - you can't always assume that Criterion has released the absolute best looking and sounding version of a film these days, but equally you can't always assume that another one of the boutiques will do it better.

Oh, it's a fucking minefield.

Sebastian Cobb

The original dvd of utteow looks a little saturated in the red section, but looking at the first screenshot their faces look skin coloured, Claire has red lipstick and you can see stuff in the background, much better than teal everything and a dark background. Wenders isn't a hack, they had good sets, it doesn't need to be hidden.

Inspector Norse

Watched Fellini's I Vitelloni the other day. Lots to like about it and much that's memorable, but also unfortunately holds up pretty badly in an enlightened, post-metoo climate. Still, can we forgive that the way we also make allowances for the occasional dodgy editing or awkward acting we accept in classic films?

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Inspector Norse on January 29, 2020, 11:59:39 AM
Still, can we forgive that

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As I keep saying time and time again, people REALLY need to stop trying to apply current day thinking (and, worse, rewrite history) to older stuff.  It just DOES NOT work, lest you avoid everything made before 2009/10.

Acknowledging it is one thing, but going on like it should be erased is not only thick-headed, it's outright dangerous.  An ex poster (who shall go unnamed, but some of you will know of whom I speak) genuinely wanted slavery to NOT be featured in any form of "entertainment" media (that is films and TV shows) and also thought that The Black and White Minstrel Show should be wiped from existence.  Potential (and admittedly exaggerated, but to illustrate the point) translation for future generations - slavery and The Black and White Minstrel Show NEVER happened.


Sorry - I know this isn't the thread for that, but it's something that really really bothers me.

Inspector Norse

True, but there's a difference between showing something that existed (eg slaves being characters) or outdated attitudes or language, and outright misogyny or racism, for example. People admit that they feel awkward with DW Griffith films, you know?
And in the Fellini film, not that it's quite on the scale of ascribing the greatness of the USA to the KKK, the main issue I have is that a key part of the plot involves
Spoiler alert
the protagonist attending the cinema with his pregnant wife, then making a pass at the woman next to him, who feels so uncomfortable she leaves, only for him to leave his pregnant wife in the cinema and follow the other woman home, force himself into her house and sexually assault her - with the result that she pushes him away but coyly implies that she's just playing hard to get. She then turns up later and comes onto him, only for him to show that he's a good person really by ignoring her because he's looking for his wife, who has finally run away due to his (attempted) philandering, and who forgives him straight away as soon as his dad whacks him with a belt.
[close]
It's all just a bit unpleasant really. One can choose to read another character's departure for unknown pastures at the end as being because he is so disgusted at the whole affair, but...

Shit Good Nose

Then I suggest you don't watch ANYTHING made before 2009/10.

Times were different, thinking was different, acceptance was different, language was different.  MeToo didn't exist, #cancelled didn't exist, LBGT+ didn't exist, at least not as we know them all now (and, in your given example, you're talking about 50s/60s Italy, which was a VERY different place even compared to the UK back then).

If someone is unable or unwilling to get over that, then I think it's a problem with the person and not the material.


Not that I'm saying I think racism, sexism, rape etc is all great and there should be more of it, more that people should get over their right-onism about something that was made 30/40/50/60/70/80/90/100 years ago and accept that's how things were back then, whether the people of the 21st century think it's right or not. 

Learning from your past to move forward positively is absolutely right and good, but trying to do the same by changing that past is absolutely wrong.

chveik

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on January 29, 2020, 12:40:24 PM
As I keep saying time and time again

could you stop please you're attacking a strawman.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: chveik on January 29, 2020, 01:40:11 PM
could you stop please you're fighting a strawman.

I'm mainly making a "royal you" point and not attacking Norse specifically.

Like I said, it's something I feel VERY strongly about and have banged on about it in chuff knows how many threads on here, because I honestly do believe it's a deeply concerning trend.

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on January 29, 2020, 01:22:19 PM
Not that I'm saying I think racism, sexism, rape etc is all great and there should be more of it

On the contrary, I am saying this

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on January 29, 2020, 01:49:47 PM
On the contrary, I am saying this

See if we can put together some investors for Tommy Robinson's planned epic.

greenman

I think your looking a something that is a relatively new trend as well, the idea that certain films like say Birth of a Nation were highly morally questionable goes back decades but the threshold seems to have dropped very considerably in recent years and arguably has become more bound up in murkier politics.

When you have the same critics shift opinion on the same material in a very short time it becomes difficult to take them very seriously.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: greenman on January 29, 2020, 01:53:59 PM
I think your looking a something that is a relatively new trend as well, the idea that certain films like say Birth of a Nation were highly morally questionable goes back decades but the threshold seems to have dropped very considerably in recent years and arguably has become more bound up in murkier politics.

Birth of a Nation is a bit of a tricky one as plenty of people at the time it was originally released were saying it was "a bit wrong that, mate" (and that's also ignoring the fact that, technical accomplishments aside, it's not actually a very good film anyway).

But there are cases where someone used to like a film, but since a part of said film has been seen under a new light since just a few years ago, that same person now doesn't like the film and criticises those that still do.  The film hasn't changed, the thinking has.  Which is fine, but don't try to retrofit the now to the then, because the then has already happened.

...or summat.

I dunno man, I think people have a right to express ambivalence about certain material without you jumping down their throat as if they want to ban it or that you are implicitly being judged or something. I don't expect that anyone here wants any films to be retroactively censored, so the reaction feels a bit disproportionate

Shit Good Nose

Maybe you're right, and it's only cos of how strongly I feel about it.

Anyway, I'm gonna step down from my soap box now - this isn't the thread for this discussion.

Inspector Norse

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on January 29, 2020, 01:22:19 PM
Not that I'm saying I think racism, sexism, rape etc is all great and there should be more of it, more that people should get over their right-onism about something that was made 30/40/50/60/70/80/90/100 years ago and accept that's how things were back then, whether the people of the 21st century think it's right or not. 

The question though (and to be honest it's just specific to how much I enjoyed this particular film) is whether it's possible to get past particular, line-crossingly uncomfortable behaviour or actions when you're watching 70 years later. I and many others can and do accept a lot of onscreen behaviour that wouldn't be OK nowadays but in this specific film we basically have a sex pest of Savilesque proportions getting redeemed and forgiven in a laughably arbitrary, unconvincing way.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Inspector Norse on January 29, 2020, 02:25:54 PM
The question though (and to be honest it's just specific to how much I enjoyed this particular film) is whether it's possible to get past particular, line-crossingly uncomfortable behaviour or actions when you're watching 70 years later. I and many others can and do accept a lot of onscreen behaviour that wouldn't be OK nowadays but in this specific film we basically have a sex pest of Savilesque proportions getting redeemed and forgiven in a laughably arbitrary, unconvincing way.

Well, Italy in the 50s (and for a VERY long time after - and I can say this with some confidence as I have Italian family and friends) had VERY different attitudes towards sex, so you almost need to put yourself in the mindset of an Italian casual cinemagoer of the 50s, whilst also bearing in mind the social and political feelings of the time.  Admittedly that's a difficult thing to do for people who are just coming into adulthood now, when all they've known is this more enlightened/sensitive/whatever you want to call it society.

As a relating aside, there are quite large parts of Italy (and other European countries) even now where racism and sexism are still not ~isms, that is to say they're still very normal things that aren't frowned upon because most people still think that way (in some more isolated parts of Eastern Europe, for example, they don't have a concept of racism, which isn't to say that they are "colour blind" - the term, or an equivalent, doesn't exist because they don't think disliking someone based on the colour of their skin is a problem).  I'm not saying those issues don't exist here in the UK, or other multi-cultural societies like Germany, but they are seen as problems (rightly so) by society in general.

Inspector Norse

Yeah that's fair enough. I lived in Spain for a bit so I've seen how some eyebrow-raising attitudes towards Africans, for example, are accepted even now.
I just felt that this particular example was too much for my snowflake sensibilities. I was quite impressed with the film otherwise (certainly better than the more lauded La Strada, though not on the level of his later masterpieces).

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Inspector Norse on January 29, 2020, 02:44:49 PM
Yeah that's fair enough. I lived in Spain for a bit so I've seen how some eyebrow-raising attitudes towards Africans, for example, are accepted even now.
I just felt that this particular example was too much for my snowflake sensibilities. I was quite impressed with the film otherwise (certainly better than the more lauded La Strada, though not on the level of his later masterpieces).

I nearly used Spain as an example, but I haven't been there for about 25 years and don't know any Spanish people so didn't really feel qualified.  Nice to hear it hasn't changed. 

But showing someone from the middle of Poland around Glasgow (and it's the first time they've ever been out of Poland) and then you get to a mosque...well, let's just say their reaction is "interesting".

greenman

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on January 29, 2020, 02:01:25 PM
Birth of a Nation is a bit of a tricky one as plenty of people at the time it was originally released were saying it was "a bit wrong that, mate" (and that's also ignoring the fact that, technical accomplishments aside, it's not actually a very good film anyway).

But there are cases where someone used to like a film, but since a part of said film has been seen under a new light since just a few years ago, that same person now doesn't like the film and criticises those that still do.  The film hasn't changed, the thinking has.  Which is fine, but don't try to retrofit the now to the then, because the then has already happened.

...or summat.

The main negativity I'd have is that the thinking really doesn't seem to have changed too much, the political climate has, I'v seen very little critical self examination and a lot of revisionist shifts in opinion.

Talking about non blockbuster UHD/4K releases BTW I see that Lynch's Elephant Man is getting one from studio channel in April.

grassbath

Unrelated (2007). Chilly but very emotionally intelligent British holiday drama about boardgame-obsessed old soaks and their spiteful drugged-up gap-yah children. Watched this after the pub and was fairly hammered and still engaged enough to take in all the little nuances, so it must have been doing something right. MUBI - from telly to belly.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: greenman on January 30, 2020, 08:55:09 AM
The main negativity I'd have is that the thinking really doesn't seem to have changed too much, the political climate has, I'v seen very little critical self examination and a lot of revisionist shifts in opinion.

Talking about non blockbuster UHD/4K releases BTW I see that Lynch's Elephant Man is getting one from studio channel in April.

I wonder how much that'll add or if they'll dnr it. The grain is pretty big iirc, the prime HD stream showed it up.

I recently watched Hellraiser on there and it looked like a dodgy pirate encode, fat movement left massive blocky artifacts on the screen awful.

greenman

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on January 30, 2020, 11:56:17 AM
I wonder how much that'll add or if they'll dnr it. The grain is pretty big iirc, the prime HD stream showed it up.

Hopefully not a lot, Don't Look Now they left it grainy and IMHO 4K makes that look more pleasant as its finer grain than HD.

I'm not normally that interested in gimmick packages but the fold out church in this does look like something from a 70's prog album..




sevendaughters

watched THE GENERAL today, the Buster Keaton one. have always been a little bit suspicious of the idea of pure cinema, a total immersion in the cinematic experience; surely films have to have deeper meaning and relate to a world outside, etc. anyway that was completely smashed over the head, i was swept away and laughing my balls off throughout. yeah it's a Civil War film but that's really the backdrop and the excuse to have a sick 30 minute train chase. the densely-choreographed scenes of misdirection that are silent cinema's stock-in-trade are all brilliant because of the scale they're performed at, but the little meta touches like the photograph he gives his partner early on...just outstanding. i'm in awe.

Sebastian Cobb

Mubi's having a 'director's first films' season at the minute, as such I saw Spielberg's The Sugarland Express last night. You can tell he was gearing up for blockbusters at this point, there's some good action and chase scenes in what is supposed to be a drama of a true story. You end up rooting for the couple and the polic captain seems an ok guy up to a point. Goldie Hawn is especially good.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on February 02, 2020, 02:52:12 PM
Mubi's having a 'director's first films' season at the minute, as such I saw Spielberg's The Sugarland Express last night. You can tell he was gearing up for blockbusters at this point, there's some good action and chase scenes in what is supposed to be a drama of a true story. You end up rooting for the couple and the polic captain seems an ok guy up to a point. Goldie Hawn is especially good.

Although here in the UK Duel was his first film of course.

I love Sugarland Express, though.

Inspector Norse

Speaking of directors' first films, I watched The Goalie's Anxiety at the Penalty Kick. Lots of familiar Wenders ingredients: existential road trip, ennui, protagonist with unclear motivations, and so on. Not quite as elegant or compelling as his later films, and I thought it was clearer that this was an adaptation rather than the director's more personal exploration, but signs of the sophistication and ambiguity that are his trademarks and, of course, the self-aware, almost reluctant fascination with American culture.
Interesting to compare it to Uncut Gems which I watched the following night, and how the two films present unsympathetic characters.

Sebastian Cobb

River of Grass. A restoration from 1994, a woman unhappy with her boring life as a housewife meets a slacker in a bar and they sneak into a pool, the owner catches them and they think they've shot him and go on the run, badly 'cos they're skint and disaffected slackers.

It's great, pure mtv generation ennui and listnessness. Will have to checkout more of Kelly Reichardt's films off the back of it.