Should comedians apologise? [Split topic]

[Brundle-Fly]

The first time I remember DB getting into hot water.

From this short but nonetheless interesting old CaB thread about comedians apologising.

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,21000.0.html

Paperlung on July 22, 2009, 02:46:51 AM

I vaguely remember (so the details might be off) David Baddiel showing up on Points of View maybe 15 years ago.  He'd made a fairly weak joke about the movie "Truly, Madly, Deeply" which features a group of developmentally disabled students.  These students, according to Baddiel, were a theatre company who had to be brought down all the way from Manchester because "there's a shortage of nutters in London".  Keen to make a distinction between Down's Syndrome and "nutters" the company complained to PoV.  Their response from Baddiel was "It was a joke.  Comedy doesn't apologise".  I remember being slightly shocked and thrilled.

Alternative Carpark's reply:

I remember watching that but I'm reasonably sure it wasn't on Points of View, I think it was some short-lived audience feedback series of the early 90s which had studio discussions, and location reports, like the one you've described there.  I'm almost certain it was the same series that had Ian Hislop and Angus Deayton on in a panel discussion after complaints about anti-Royal material on HIGNFY.

If I recall correctly, the Baddiel report was presented by Juliet Stevenson, who was involved with the theatre company.  Despite saying what he did, Baddiel seemed fairly conciliatory in his brief interview, defending his position but not being truculent about it.  One thing he said was that the priorities being discussed were more for social work than comedy.

Paperlung's reply
Ahh, thanks for that Alternative Carpark (!?).  My memory is getting well old.  And yeah, I don't remember him being entirely unsympathetic about it, just convinced that although he regretted causing offence he was not prepared to apologise for a joke.

[idunnosomename]

Fucking hell. It doesnt even make sense except as a lazy jibe at the North. What a cunt

[Brundle-Fly]

Fucking hell. It doesnt even make sense except as a lazy jibe at the North. What a cunt

I think the joke wasn't against the North per se in this instance, but North London where the film, Truly Madly Deeply (1991) was set. Baddiel suggested there were enough 'nutters' in his manor already without having to bus any in from Manchester.

[jobotic]

Good though innit? Learning disability? Nutter more like. Gervaisian

[Brundle-Fly]

The term 'nutter' really was of its time. Maybe buses were a comedy staple too in the 20th century? Jasper Carrott had a whole routine about both.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWEZaDr85tQ

[Bennett Brauer]

That bloke doing vox pops about Dime bars really was one though.

[Famous Mortimer]

A mate of mine went to a school fancy dress party in the early 80s as Idi Amin. He's white (so he blacked up) and there were quite a few black kids at that school. But nobody complained. He's now a civil servant based in Barbados. He still has a photo and I keep urging him to use it for his Facebook profile but he seems strangely loath to do it.

Oh yeah, Baddiel's a prat. I follow him on Twitter but he really gets on my nerves.

You're presumably aware of the rather-ill-advised-by-any-standards-but-especially-today's Idi Amin LP, complete with an "impression" of Amin done by Alan Coren?

[Famous Mortimer]

I'm reminded of this thread from 2011, interesting to read it again now and contrast with the current state of affairs.

https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,26692.0.html

I think there's a good argument to be made that "allowing" this punching-down style of comedy from your Gervaises has at least not helped us, and has at most contributed to, the world we live in today.

[I.D. Smith]

I think there's a good argument to be made that "allowing" this punching-down style of comedy from your Gervaises has at least not helped us, and has at most contributed to, the world we live in today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITCaO9-KDuc

[Jockice]

You're presumably aware of the rather-ill-advised-by-any-standards-but-especially-today's Idi Amin LP, complete with an "impression" of Amin done by Alan Coren?

Nope. I knew nothing about it. Hope it's on YouTube.

[Andy147]

You're presumably aware of the rather-ill-advised-by-any-standards-but-especially-today's Idi Amin LP, complete with an "impression" of Amin done by Alan Coren?

Written by Alan Coren, done by John Bird.

[poodlefaker]

It was a regular Coren thing, in Punch, I think, and made for one of his most successful books. Defended by Giles and Victoria when they put out a collection of his writings a few years ago.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Given that comedy has an effect on peoples views and attitudes, I find the idea the comedy does not apologise a disturbing one. It could be argued that Baddiels "joke" helped to perpetuate stigma against people with learning disabilities, who already have a difficult time in the UK. "Nutters" is also an offensive term for the mentally ill.

[idunnosomename]

The nutter on the bus still always sits next to me though

[Jumblegraws]

Given that comedy has an effect on peoples views and attitudes, I find the idea the comedy does not apologise a disturbing one. It could be argued that Baddiels "joke" helped to perpetuate stigma against people with learning disabilities, who already have a difficult time in the UK. "Nutters" is also an offensive term for the mentally ill.

I've often felt that Baddiel and Gervais, up until recently at least, worked along an unstated logic that joking about people with learning difficulties is somehow balanced by an implicit celebration of intelligence. They're horrible people, in other words.

[Harry Badger]

Written by Alan Coren, done by John Bird.

Bird was still doing this character (albeit under a different name) on the Two Johns bit on Rory Bremner well into the 2000s. He wasn't blacked up though.

[poodlefaker]

On another forum I sometimes look at they had this idea of Peep Show Toryism, which - aiui - was to do with being an educated, privileged man who knows the theory of being socially liberal, but is disapponted in his own life and resentful of/intimidated by poor people, black people, gays etc

[phantom_power]

Isn't "comedy doesn't apologise" and Gervais's position just a slightly more moral high-ground and intellectual version of "bantz"? Calm down mate, it's just bantz

[Barry Admin]

I agree with Brundle that the statement was exciting, I think this would make a great new thread!

Anyway I also just wanted to post Worthington's Law in here, too. I'm staggered at how relevant it is.

https://youtu.be/ScJSeUIxydA

And it's still just so bloody funny and brilliant.

[EOLAN]

Bird was still doing this character (albeit under a different name) on the Two Johns bit on Rory Bremner well into the 2000s. He wasn't blacked up though.

Yep. Think I remember being tempted to buy that album in a small local record shop. Was always like near the start of the pile. Jonathon Miller has a couple of African leaders/royalty caricatures as well on Beyond the Fringe. No blacking up either I believe.

[Autopsy Turvey]

Given that comedy has an effect on peoples views and attitudes, I find the idea the comedy does not apologise a disturbing one.

Dear old Mrs Whitehouse and the folk so grievously upset by Life Of Brian would agree with this.

"Nutters" is also an offensive term for the mentally ill.

Is it actually offensive to them, though? I've known several self-identified nutters, as well as nutty folk whose mentally ill actions have been so toxically unpleasant, the idea that they might be offended by a word is just emptily platitudinously amusing.

Jonathon Miller has a couple of African leaders/royalty caricatures as well on Beyond the Fringe. No blacking up either I believe.

It was the only way he could get lodgings. "One man one vote, that is essential, especially for the nine million black idiots who vote for me." Even for the time that was a brave sketch, not so bravely dropped when they took it to New York, but it appears to have been airbrushed from the internet. Googling "Akiboto Nobitsu" brings up two citations, both quotations from google books. It seems a healthy thing to laugh at though, and tend to think nobody should be excluded from ridicule.

[Better Midlands]

nutty folk

Ken Dodd was often referred to as nutty on the TV & radio in his prime and there was this



and this



and for the junglist mandem it was a calling cry

[tourism]

Is it actually offensive to them, though? I've known several self-identified nutters

I think that a lot of people will self-identify in that way to blunt being called it by someone else tbh or just plain self-loathing. weird what you're amused by 

[phantom_power]

Don't mention Adam Buxton's Nutty Room. He would hate to be #cancelled

[idunnosomename]

Cadbury's Fruit 'n' Nut CANCELLED

[Jumblegraws]

Dear old Mrs Whitehouse and the folk so grievously upset by Life Of Brian would agree with this.

You've run this "not so different" line into the ground, you know. It was a point about the attitude that comedy is inherently above reproach, not a suggestion that every demand for an apology ought to be gratified.

[Better Midlands]

In the 80/90s we'd refer to someone as a "nutter" the same way you'd call them a "mad lad" today.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mad%20lad

An insane dude. Someone who is out of his god damn mind. A guy that did something that nobody would have ever even dared to think of doing.
Wow Jacob just drank that entire glass of water, what a fucking mad lad.

[Better Midlands]

Cadbury's Fruit 'n' Nut CANCELLED

Forgot about that, this song was all over my junior school playground

https://youtu.be/bABP0Ufoe7g

[Autopsy Turvey]

I think that a lot of people will self-identify in that way to blunt being called it by someone else tbh or just plain self-loathing. weird what you're amused by

The amusement was just around the idea that certain people whose appalling behaviour is if not caused then exacerbated by their mental illness would be offended by such an innocuous playground word, or that we shoudn't seek to characterise their behaviour as that of a nutter to avoid offending people whose behaviour is far more offensive than any cluster of phonemes.

Of course not all people with a mental illness are nutters, only the ones who act like nutters, as do many sane people, so it's not black and white. Not that black and white is all that simple either.

You've run this "not so different" line into the ground, you know.

If so it's because another statement has prompted me to try and ascertain an objective and consistent way of dealing with folk who are offended by jokes.

[Jumblegraws]

If so it's because another statement has prompted me to try and ascertain an objective and consistent way of dealing with folk who are offended by jokes.

Why do you need a mental reference book for this sort of thing? Presumably you value context when it comes to assessing jokes, where's the difficulty in doing the same when it comes to assessing complaints about jokes?