Comedy you love but begrudgingly recognise is starting to date

[Shit Good Nose]

I'll just clodhop naively in to wonder aloud that as the word 'p**i' is so ugly and offensive, is it a source of shame, embarrassment and upset that the first half of the words Pakistan and Pakistani is a racial slur? It feels so wrong using the word in any context, yet it's unavoidable just talking about the country and its people.

Everyone used the prefix before 'shop' in those days, with no malice, just to quickly distinguish it from the other shop in the village (which is less friendly, less efficient, more expensive, open fewer hours etc). "The people who run the p**i shop are lovely" is surely better than "These South Asian people of colour are all cunts" (George Carlin may have said something similar).

Similar to Jap and Iti (as in eye tie) - it has become ugly and offensive because it was used as a racial slur.  Were they not, then they both might be taken the same casual shortening as Brit.  Having said that, "p**i" and "jap" (lower case letters used on purpose to denote the slur use) do even sound harsh and aggressive on the tongue.

Comedy I love but begrudgingly recognise is starting to date: The Pickwick Papers.

"I have seen two films..." etc.

[TheBrownBottle]

There is a bit of a move around there - a mate who lives in Glasgow has a few sikh friends and, whilst I've never heard them use p**i or any other racial slur, I know that they REALLY don't like muslims.  I'm not saying that's true of all sikhs, but it is of those.  Admittedly that's probably as much to do with them being sick to the back teeth of people assuming that they are muslims as anything else. 

I've also mentioned on here before about how another mate's Chinese girlfriend and her family HATE being referred to as Asian and now use Oriental (often previously considered to be a slur) because they don't want to be lumped in with people from the middle East. 

Funny old world innit.

Mrs BB is a Glaswegian Sikh.  I've heard her family do the same.  It's very, very odd asking British Asians not to use the word 'p**i' around you, as I have.  It's well odd

[ajsmith2]

There's the risible fashion sense, the attitude to women, the idea of observational comedy being something new. Anything else?

I wouldn't say the attitude to women was that notably bad for the times. (as a show, not by the characters themselves) Elaine is a great fully rounded character, and pretty much the most charming and intelligent of the 4 lead cunts. ( I mean, relatively of course, but still) Yeah Sein and George*  habitually treated their girlfriends like disposable crap, but so did Elaine with her beaus, but the whole point of the show was that they were all shallow self centred psychos reflecting the viewerships worst petty vices for comic effect: it wasn't like Friends or something where they were meant to be likeable and to a degree aspirational figures.

*Kramer exempt here because despite often displaying just as much capacity to be brutally mercenary in his attitude to relationships as the other 3, he could also be more 'eccentrically' gallant and genuinely affectionate on occasion. 

[gilbertharding]

Mrs BB is a Glaswegian Sikh.  I've heard her family do the same.  It's very, very odd asking British Asians not to use the word 'p**i' around you, as I have.  It's well odd

[RFT]

Mrs BB is a Glaswegian Sikh.  I've heard her family do the same.  It's very, very odd asking British Asians not to use the word 'p**i' around you, as I have.  It's well odd

I think i've posted about this before (a long time ago), but in 2001-2002, I had a mixed-race british-indian housemate (indian dad, british mum, grew up in london) who was pretty much as right-on as you can be, calling out people for using "spaz", etc, but whenever the subject of a chinese meal or takeaway came up, it was always "going for a chinky".

[neveragain]

Seinfeld... There's the risible fashion sense, the attitude to women, the idea of observational comedy being something new. Anything else?

Fashion sense, yes. The stand-up, I don't know if it's treated as new, but it has prominence in plots (and is often mocked) because it's the central character's job. The attitude to women is definitely intended to be shallow and despicable and as such I can't say it's dated, since misogyny is very much still a thing. I'd say it feels much worse in Friends where the characters are less obviously portrayed as the arseholes they are.

Edit: didn't see ajsmith's post

[chveik]

I'll just clodhop naively in to wonder aloud that as the word 'p**i' is so ugly and offensive, is it a source of shame, embarrassment and upset that the first half of the words Pakistan and Pakistani is a racial slur? It feels so wrong using the word in any context, yet it's unavoidable just talking about the country and its people.

FUCK OFF

[jobotic]

FUCK OFF

Yes. It's incredibly tiresome this drivel, isn't it?

[Cuellar]

I think the most irritating part is the 'golly gee, now I'm not like you fancy city folks with your fancy words'. Every bloody time.

[purlieu]

Plus Susan is always a bit of a cunt to Ross for no real reason.

I'd say him being Ross Gellar is a real reason to be a cunt to him.[nb]I agree with your point though.[/nb]

[Cardenio I]

And what of "Lurpak", a butter we will happily consume without any squeamishness while still recoiling from a naive if well-intentioned p**i joke?

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

They call that out in the DVD commentaries as being implausible or outdated possibly even at the point they filmed it, never mind broadcast.

I assume Marsha owned the house outright and just wanted enough extra income to cover the weekly shop at Threshers.

[imitationleather]

FUCK OFF

+1

I refuse to believe someone saying this stuff isn't taking the piss.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

There's the risible fashion sense, the attitude to women, the idea of observational comedy being something new. Anything else?

That's not true, though, is it? Jerry's observational style of comedy is sometimes mocked by other characters in the show. He's not supposed to be some sort of groundbreaking stand-up. Far from it.

As for its attitudes to women, well pretty much everyone in Seinfeld is portrayed as petty, foolish and vindictive. Women don't get singled out. The only problematic element I can think of is the depiction of Babu as a stereotypical comedy Pakistani, but that came across as dodgy even back then.

EDIT: ajsmith put it better than what I did.

[Icehaven]

They call that out in the DVD commentaries as being implausible or outdated possibly even at the point they filmed it, never mind broadcast.

The huge mansion and riverside flat in central London that Del and Rodney buy at the end of OFAH with their £6 million seemed a bit of a stretch even in 1996. Probably wouldn't even get you the flat in Nelson Mandela house now.   

[Icehaven]

I assume Marsha owned the house outright and just wanted enough extra income to cover the weekly shop at Threshers.

There was the whole thing about them having to pretend to be a couple too, which given she was also renting to the very obviously single Brian seemed a bit shoehorned in (although that's probably explained when it turns out Brian had sex with her in lieu of rent.)

[Captain Z]

There was the whole thing about them having to pretend to be a couple too, which given she was also renting to the very obviously single Brian seemed a bit shoehorned in (although that's probably explained when it turns out Brian had sex with her in lieu of rent.)

That's explained during the Ricky Gervais appearance - Marsha never intended the advert to say professional couple only.

[Icehaven]

That's explained during the Ricky Gervais cameo - Marsha never intended the advert to say professional couple only.

Oh I'd forgotten that. So why did she get so upset when she finds out they aren't really a couple? Just because they fibbed to her for so long? It's been about 15 years since I've seen it.

[Captain Z]

Pretty much. As luck would have it that clip is online: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/spaced/videos/all/professional-couple-only/2908990890001

[gilbertharding]

That's not true, though, is it? Jerry's observational style of comedy is sometimes mocked by other characters in the show. He's not supposed to be some sort of groundbreaking stand-up. Far from it.

As for its attitudes to women, well pretty much everyone in Seinfeld is portrayed as petty, foolish and vindictive. Women don't get singled out. The only problematic element I can think of is the depiction of Babu as a stereotypical comedy Pakistani, but that came across as dodgy even back then.

EDIT: ajsmith put it better than what I did.

I was stretching for things to be honest - as I said, mentioning Seinfeld is almost a Pavlovian reaction to someone mentioning Friends in a thread like this.

But there must be some things about Seinfeld which have dated. Jackie Chiles is a bit glib. Babu Bhatt? The Bubble Boy?

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

I mentioned Babu!

[gilbertharding]

Of course. Beg your pardon.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

That is quite alright. Gizza kiss.

[Utter Shit]

OFAH's racial politics has dated better, if only as an accurate portrayal of the time, rather than the actual content.  My folks, like Del, would refer to 'Chinkies' for Chinese Takeaway or 'p**i Shop' - I don't think they were racist in the '80s then stopped being racist later; unfortunately that was the language of the time for many - particularly amongst the working classes (unwitting racism is still racism, but they weren't out shovelling poo through letterboxes).

Yeah that is what I was going for in my earlier post, only you worded it much more...better. When Albert says "p**i shop", there's no malice in it, it's just the 'right' description as far as he (or presumably Sullivan) knew at that time.

Maybe I'm wrong about that though, and that word was already considered offensive at that time? I mean in theory it's no different to 'Aussie', it's just a contraction of the nationality (albeit with the issue blurred further by the fact that it was aimed at non-Pakistani Asians as well), and it's the intent behind the phrase that makes it offensive. But I suppose it probably existed as both the 'right' terminology by non-racist people and as an insult, in which case those who used it without intending to offend still needed to think about the language they were using. Fuck knows mate.

EDIT: Probably should have read to the end of the thread where this was already discussed.

[jobotic]

Of course it was offensive when OFAH first aired. I was at primary school and we would have been bollocked if we'd said it. I remember a girl in my year singing about "p**i-bashing", which I think she'd copied from her older brothers. 

[Dewt]

Found it really confusing when moving to this area and discovering that local shops are called "Packie" shops.

[Shit Good Nose]

Found it really confusing when moving to this area and discovering that local shops are called "Packie" shops.

Somewhere in Canada is it?

Short for "packaging" yeah?  Everything goes loose in a big brown paper bag or something?

[SteK]

Found it really confusing when moving to this area and discovering that local shops are called "Packie" shops.

In Ireland a sandwich is called a sambo.....

[Jumblegraws]

I'll just clodhop naively in to wonder aloud that as the word 'p**i' is so ugly and offensive, is it a source of shame, embarrassment and upset that the first half of the words Pakistan and Pakistani is a racial slur?

No.

Everyone used the prefix before 'shop' in those days, with no malice, just to quickly distinguish it from the other shop in the village (which is less friendly, less efficient, more expensive, open fewer hours etc). "The people who run the p**i shop are lovely" is surely better than "These South Asian people of colour are all cunts" (George Carlin may have said something similar).

This is a long way of saying that casual racism used to be more acceptable than it is now.

[Dewt]

Can we please stop being so hostile towards Autopsy Turvey? You might not like to hear their opinions, but it's important to hear what he's saying. How else are going to find out what absolute fucking dipshits think?