Author Topic: Labour Election Hustings:What Do They Know? Do They Know Things? Let's Find Out!  (Read 79966 times)

NoSleep

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New thread for ongoing discussion of Labour party fortunes.

But once they are elected, they don't need to worry about their popularity with the membership. They can pursue their own ideology, the one shared by the media class, the PLP, and a portion of the electorate that they think matters the most - the middle class. Starmers not going to announce a sudden move to Blairism, but at the very least, we will see a move back towards the watered down nothingy politics of Ed Miliband, and even if the left isn't shut out completely (by making it harder for a left-winger to stand in future leadership elections), at the very least, the left will be excluded once more from the machinery of politics, setting us back to the start with any future leader.

Corbyn suffered a defining, permanently damaging hit at the start of his leadership, because he and his team lacked experience in opposition. If you ever want to have the slightest hope of a left wing prime minister, we need the left running the opposition for long enough that they have experience, like-minded MP's, an active, engaged membership, and a public that sees them as the new norm, not a dalliance with a fringe ideology. By electing Starmer, or any centrist, you set the clock back to 0. None of the current leaderships hopefuls have much chance of winning an election after boundary changes (etc), so we might as well back the one who will keep the left in play, rather than the one who sets us back again - most likely for no electoral benefit whatsoever.           

Another poor leader on the left, and tarred with being the choice of the previous unpopular leader isn't going to do any damage to the left then? We just get the 'we had a left wing leader(s) and failed miserably'.

I think Milibandism is still pretty unlikely. He's not going to get rid of policies like the green new deal.

I want a left wing leader, but I'm doubtful that choosing whoever is most left regardless of ability is the best plan for this. I think we should pick our moments, and try and push the best candidates left by the power of the membership. We've already utterly won the debate on many issues, any leader will have to keep certain policies that we've fought for.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
We failed, not because of left wing policies being bad unpopular policies, not because of Corbyn being a bad man or leader, we failed because the establishment, both in the UK and outside, did everything in its power to make us fail.  They did it because Corbyn and our policies actually were close to changing the world for all of us and they were desperately frightened.  You need to take that on board.  Really grasp and accept it.

We are now in the position where we can choose, either to allow the elite to dictate the leadership and policies of the Labour Party forever (and, by extension, all political opposition and argument, think XR, think Stop the War, think anything at all that stands a hope in hell of questioning the current abominable way we conduct ourselves) OR we resist and continue to oppose them.

We resist by continuing to work with every sinew to change the world.  Every time they use the tactics they used against Corbyn on a new leader, it will become more obvious to more people.  Eventually, even the very unobservant will see they're being duped.  That's it.  If we opt for the first one, we might as well give up entirely.  Just hand them our lives and futures and hide somewhere.

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
We failed, not because of left wing policies being bad unpopular policies, not because of Corbyn being a bad man or leader, we failed because the establishment, both in the UK and outside, did everything in its power to make us fail.  They did it because Corbyn and our policies actually were close to changing the world for all of us and they were desperately frightened.  You need to take that on board.  Really grasp and accept it.

We are now in the position where we can choose, either to allow the elite to dictate the leadership and policies of the Labour Party forever (and, by extension, all political opposition and argument, think XR, think Stop the War, think anything at all that stands a hope in hell of questioning the current abominable way we conduct ourselves) OR we resist and continue to oppose them.

We resist by continuing to work with every sinew to change the world.  Every time they use the tactics they used against Corbyn on a new leader, it will become more obvious to more people.  Eventually, even the very unobservant will see they're being duped.  That's it.  If we opt for the first one, we might as well give up entirely.  Just hand them our lives and futures and hide somewhere.

Exactement - push this message.

Thugler, there is not time left to "pick our moments". "We've" been picking, or more accurately, waiting, for decades.

We failed, not because of left wing policies being bad unpopular policies, not because of Corbyn being a bad man or leader, we failed because the establishment, both in the UK and outside, did everything in its power to make us fail.  They did it because Corbyn and our policies actually were close to changing the world for all of us and they were desperately frightened.  You need to take that on board.  Really grasp and accept it..

It is also possible that the policies were fine, there was resistance from the establishment ... and Corbyn was a poor and unpopular leader.

Should Starmer win the leadership, then it shouldn’t mean that the policies should be flushed down the toilet.

It is also possible that the policies were fine, there was resistance from the establishment ... and Corbyn was a poor and unpopular leader.

Should Starmer win the leadership, then it shouldn’t mean that the policies should be flushed down the toilet.


Nobody has managed to give a single solitary reason for picking Keir ‘chicken coup’ Starmer over Rebecca Long Bailey, the natural hand picked socialist successor.
Not for the want of trying mind you. The effort being expunged trying to convince us that wooden centrism is actually the new easily digestible socialist strategy the country has been waiting for, and all coming from keen self declared former Corbyn supporters, is hardly surprising.
I will continue to resist this nonsense.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
It is also possible that the policies were fine, there was resistance from the establishment ... and Corbyn was a poor and unpopular leader.

Should Starmer win the leadership, then it shouldn’t mean that the policies should be flushed down the toilet.

We need evidence of that.  What evidence is there that Corbyn was a poor and unpopular leader?  The testimony of Margaret Hodge?  How many Labour leaders, how many political leaders in the UK, have drawn the members and the crowds like Corbyn did?  Anyone who could manage anything under the daily bombardment he endured for years is not a poor leader by any stretch of the imagination.

What evidence do you have that Starmer wouldn't sell us out?  You seem to be ignoring the evidence that his backers and friends are people that would, so what compelling reason do you have for ignoring that and trusting him?  Please share.

We need evidence of that.  What evidence is there that Corbyn was a poor and unpopular leader?  The testimony of Margaret Hodge?  How many Labour leaders, how many political leaders in the UK, have drawn the members and the crowds like Corbyn did?  Anyone who could manage anything under the daily bombardment he endured for years is not a poor leader by any stretch of the imagination.

What evidence do you have that Starmer wouldn't sell us out?  You seem to be ignoring the evidence that his backers and friends are people that would, so what compelling reason do you have for ignoring that and trusting him?  Please share.

Labour’s worst GE result in nearly nine decades and continually poor personal polling would be the evidence for me.  Labour leaders unfortunately tend to get effluence poured over them.  Corbyn’s maligning in the press was often an absolute disgrace - but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t have handled it better.

Margaret Hodge is bloody awful, and did a lot of unnecessary harm to the party she’s meant to represent.

I have no evidence re Starmer, beyond his working in Corbyn’s SC (without stabbing him in the back/front) and declaring himself to be a socialist.  If he wins, and then does a volte face - then he should face a leadership challenge.  It’s hard to judge fully until he’s actually given a chance to do it - all any of are doing is making what we feel are educated guesses at this point. 

Labour’s worst GE result in nearly nine decades and continually poor personal polling would be the evidence for me.  Labour leaders unfortunately tend to get effluence poured over them.  Corbyn’s maligning in the press was often an absolute disgrace - but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t have handled it better.

Margaret Hodge is bloody awful, and did a lot of unnecessary harm to the party she’s meant to represent.

I have no evidence re Starmer, beyond his working in Corbyn’s SC (without stabbing him in the back/front) and declaring himself to be a socialist.  If he wins, and then does a volte face - then he should face a leadership challenge.  It’s hard to judge fully until he’s actually given a chance to do it - all any of are doing is making what we feel are educated guesses at this point.

Some guesses are more educated than others. Yours seem to fly in the face of all the evidence.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Labour’s worst GE result in nearly nine decades and continually poor personal polling would be the evidence for me.  Labour leaders unfortunately tend to get effluence poured over them.  Corbyn’s maligning in the press was often an absolute disgrace - but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t have handled it better.

Margaret Hodge is bloody awful, and did a lot of unnecessary harm to the party she’s meant to represent.

I have no evidence re Starmer, beyond his working in Corbyn’s SC (without stabbing him in the back/front) and declaring himself to be a socialist.  If he wins, and then does a volte face - then he should face a leadership challenge.  It’s hard to judge fully until he’s actually given a chance to do it - all any of are doing is making what we feel are educated guesses at this point. 

An educated guess, as I understand it anyway, is a prediction based on previous events.  Everything you're saying ignores previous evidence, overlooks it and is based on what the people wanting you to make those choices are telling you.  That's not educated, it's the opposite.

On the handling it better bilge, according to whom?  Better - in what way? 

NoSleep

  • This is your Uncle Jim speaking
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The 10m odd votes that Labour got in the 2019 GE were still more than won Labour an election in 2005.

Cardenio I

  • Hasta la muerte, todo es vida
Corbyn was basically record-breaking in his unpopularity across all polls going into the GE (and for a good while before). His ability to energise a small base was useful, but it couldn't make up for his fundamental unpopularity among the electorate.

I'm deeply suspicious of the noise around Starmer's "electability", and his talk of socialism seems a pretty transparent ploy to win the leadership. He wouldn't be the first nor the last Labour leader to tack left to win the membership then jettison all that once in place. Unfortunately, I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone else will win. I'm prepared to give him time and an open mind, because I can't really be fucked going in with all the fury of factionalism. Bored now.

And that's my thoughts.

Fair enough.  I’ve seen how successful calling everyone who wasn’t waving the red flag a ‘Blairite’ or ‘red Tory’ has been.  And now hoping that a man who worked in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet & pushed the last manifesto is the sign of being uneducated on the matter.

I’m not sure I enjoy Tory rule as much as some others on the left seem to.  If there was an inspirational choice on the ‘true’ left I’d happily support him/her.  RLB is unimpressive, and I can’t see her winning back any of the votes Labour need, considering that she’d need to vastly outperform the 2019 result.  I’m not sure Starmer is that person either, but he looks a better bet at present.  It’s an uninspired field of candidates.

The 10m odd votes that Labour got in the 2019 GE were still more than won Labour an election in 2005.

Absolutely true.  And I’m sure that every person who’s about to suffer under Tory misrule will think on this and it’ll keep them smiling.

I’d have been happier if Labour won 2m fewer votes and 150 more seats, personally.

An educated guess, as I understand it anyway, is a prediction based on previous events.  Everything you're saying ignores previous evidence, overlooks it and is based on what the people wanting you to make those choices are telling you.  That's not educated, it's the opposite.

On the handling it better bilge, according to whom?  Better - in what way?

According to me, tbf.  My opinion only, that one. 

kittens

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Absolutely true.  And I’m sure that every person who’s about to suffer under Tory misrule will think on this and it’ll keep them smiling.

I’d have been happier if Labour won 2m fewer votes and 150 more seats, personally.

what a dumb thing to say. dummy.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Fair enough.  I’ve seen how successful calling everyone who wasn’t waving the red flag a ‘Blairite’ or ‘red Tory’ has been.  And now hoping that a man who worked in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet & pushed the last manifesto is the sign of being uneducated on the matter.

I’m not sure I enjoy Tory rule as much as some others on the left seem to.  If there was an inspirational choice on the ‘true’ left I’d happily support him/her.  RLB is unimpressive, and I can’t see her winning back any of the votes Labour need, considering that she’d need to vastly outperform the 2019 result.  I’m not sure Starmer is that person either, but he looks a better bet at present.  It’s an uninspired field of candidates.

This is so backhanded.  Corbyn, when first elected chose a rainbow of leftists for his shadow cabinet.  There were all shades of red right through to red(blue) and it was those people, old New Labour, Blairites, pink tories, call them what you will, that spent their time from day one, conspiring to rid the Party of him.  Don't try to reframe it the other way around.

Starmer is a posh white man called Sir.  His mates are cunts.  When push came to shove, he let us down.  Why would we want a leader like that?

Corbyn was basically record-breaking in his unpopularity across all polls going into the GE (and for a good while before). His ability to energise a small base was useful, but it couldn't make up for his fundamental unpopularity among the electorate.




Do you know what else was record breaking? The media coverage of Corbyns leadership and Labour itself under Corbyn. Why don’t you look into that and see if you can draw any parallels?

This is so backhanded.  Corbyn, when first elected chose a rainbow of leftists for his shadow cabinet.  There were all shades of red right through to red(blue) and it was those people, old New Labour, Blairites, pink tories, call them what you will, that spent their time from day one, conspiring to rid the Party of him.  Don't try to reframe it the other way around.

Starmer is a posh white man called Sir.  His mates are cunts.  When push came to shove, he let us down.  Why would we want a leader like that?

I’d rather have a fire-breathing Nye Bevan type.  The party doesn’t have one.

You’re right on the shit coup, of course.  Corbyn deserved their support for at least one election.  The PLP’s actions in 2016 were fucking ludicrous.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
You keep talking about what you'd like.  We are socialists, it's not about what we'd like individually, it's about working together to make life better for all of us.  That starts with electing a leader who is not an elitist.

It is also possible that the policies were fine, there was resistance from the establishment ... and Corbyn was a poor and unpopular leader.

No need to erase Corbyn's overwhelming support in 2017.

You keep talking about what you'd like.  We are socialists, it's not about what we'd like individually, it's about working together to make life better for all of us.  That  starts with electing a leader who is not an elitist.

You’re right, I know you’re right.  And accepting a knighthood is an obvious sign that a person isn’t a socialist.

But I would still rather see a Labour Party which carries some of policies I believe in win power, rather than strive for something closer to my personal ideology and lose.  I’m a member of the Fabian Society for a reason.  I’d rather see incremental change than none at all.  Socialism will come when the population are convinced, not in a single leap n

No need to erase Corbyn's overwhelming support in 2017.

He wasn’t popular in 2017, either - he just wasn’t as unpopular as he was in 2019.  May & Johnson were also unpopular. 

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
You're mad if you think that.  What other public figure could've survived the daily onslaught he did and achieved those results without popularity?

You’re right, I know you’re right.  And accepting a knighthood is an obvious sign that a person isn’t a socialist.

But I would still rather see a Labour Party which carries some of policies I believe in win power, rather than strive for something closer to my personal ideology and lose.  I’m a member of the Fabian Society for a reason.  I’d rather see incremental change than none at all.  Socialism will come when the population are convinced, not in a single leap n

This is about changing the world, not about branding.

We don't just want Labour on the tin, we want the contents changed.  No one is going to give us that, in increments or otherwise.  If you don't believe me, ask yourself who would be doing the giving.  Then, ask yourself what relationship they have with the people who screwed Corbyn and the Party over.

Nothing meaningful is ever going to be given by those people.

He wasn’t popular in 2017, either - he just wasn’t as unpopular as he was in 2019.  May & Johnson were also unpopular.

He really was. But then again I'm not a member of the Fabian Society, just a member of society.

greencalx

  • Never knowingly knowledgeable
A big problem is that popular vote and seat share are two very different things under the FPTP system. It’s true that this is the lowest number of seats at Westminster for two million years or whatever, but a 32% share is respectable and more than Brown or Miliband got.

If you want a real electoral disaster you want to look to Scotland in 2016, where Dugdale got a whomping 23% of the vote and 3 of the 73 FPTP seats. If that were replicated at Westminster, Labour would be sitting on 27 seats.

Yes it’s important to convert share into seats, but let’s not be under any illusion that installing a centrist leader will magically convert a 32% share into the 40%+ you need to win the damn thing.

Honestly, those results were awful.  That’s not me doubting the role that the onslaught played - it absolutely did.  I can’t look at those results & polls and agree that he was popular, though.

Serious question - what do people think Labour (and future leaders) can do about that onslaught?  What ways can they mitigate it?

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
If you mean the onslaught from people working to defeat socialism, the obvious answer is to continue as proud and open socialists, unbowed, unapologetic.  To never give up.

I do seem to remember there were quite a few Fabians involved in the early onslaught against Corbyn, so you should have a word with them.  Or leave the fucking Fabian Society, of course.

Blinder Data

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Can't believe we're going round and round on the topic of Corbyn's level of popularity.

Of course the biased media increased his level of unpopularity and he had a mini-bump in 2017, but all the evidence that we have suggests that MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE HIM (or, more importantly, trust him to be a good PM).

Nearly everyone on CaB seemed to like him a lot, but posters on here are not most people.

The Fabian Society, like the Labour Party, is a broad church.  I didn’t leave the Labour Party because it also contained Blairites.  A coalition of the left is required to win power.  This is why neither the SWP nor the SDP ever won power.

I’m happy to be a democratic socialist in a party of the left.  The last two Labour manifestos were hardly radical pamphlets - they were pretty standard European Social Democratic manifestos.  Nationalisation of the railways & utilities should be the base.  Not everyone wants want I want (more’s the pity).  I’m happy to argue for what I want to see - but I’m also happy to compromise along the way.

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