Labour Election Hustings:What Do They Know? Do They Know Things? Let's Find Out!

[Armin Meiwes]

There's quite a wide band between "win at all costs" and wanting pure socialism though isn't there.. I mean Id take good economic and social policies that reduce inequality and improve peoples lives and treat migrants with respect over a Tory govt, I don't need ideological purity.

[Armin Meiwes]

Agreed that it's v difficult to know for sure what will be electable in 5 years time tho, it's just looking at recent history and anecdotal experience and then taking a guess from that.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

If anyone is going to a CLP meeting tonight: get Thornberry on the ballot ffs.

[greencalx]

I considered making a representation last night to that effect, as in the end no-one spoke in favour of her. I'm not a particularly big fan, but she is at least as capable as other candidates who have made the ballot, so there doesn't seem to be any compelling reason for her to be the only one left off. (If it were Phillips in this situation, that would be a different matter).

[Replies From View]

I get people's objections to Starmer (obviously!!), but the problem is that all evidence points to the fact that the general public do not ever want to vote for the #socialismnow candidate, they get scared of anything that smells of radicalism or ideology, what they want is the nice "sensible" person that makes them feel comfortable and unchallenged.

Or it shows that people went for "Get Brexit Done" on this occasion and believed the terrorism/anti-semitism narrative.

If we don't know, let's just assume things, bang on about this guesswork with confidence and throw the baby out with the bath water, yeah?  Nice one.

[Replies From View]

I get the point that trying to predict who is electable is extremely difficult but it's a lot easier to predict who is UNelectable and yes I know it's anecdotal but of the many people I speak to about politics not one of them that isn't ideologically socialist wants RLB over Starmer (or Nandy), and I speak to a lot of people about this stuff.

It's known as letting our enemies choose our leaders and our policies, and pretending to believe it's a victory when a completely different party called "Labour" wins a general election with the backing of The Sun.

Tell your friends that.

[Scrapey Fish]

The Jewish Labour Movement has nominated the Chair of Labour Friends of Palestine, Lisa Nandy, to lead the Labour Party.

[Zetetic]

The people in this country require a revolution of the mind, 10 years of totalitarian rule will see the majority of the populace on their knees begging for socialism.

As now, this majority will mostly youngish renters and mostly piled up in the cities.

[Thomas]

Labour International have nominated Starmer, with 42.6% of the members' vote (though RLB was a close second, with 41.2%, far ahead of the others. The distance between Starmer and RLB increased to 9% when vote transfers were taken into account).

[Armin Meiwes]

Yeah disappointing Thornberry isn't looking like making it through, I think she's decent.

[Armin Meiwes]

Or it shows that people went for "Get Brexit Done" on this occasion and believed the terrorism/anti-semitism narrative.

If we don't know, let's just assume things, bang on about this guesswork with confidence and throw the baby out with the bath water, yeah?  Nice one.

Ok mate so as long as the Tories don't come up with some other culture war issue and the newspapers don't attach RLB to a leader that they have successfully trashed then we should be absolutely fine, and I can't see either of those things happening obviously.

[thugler]

It isn't the same though. Corbyn spoke openly about anything you asked him in a way that was exceptional for a politician. He was outstanding in this way. Starmer is a standard brand political suit.

Not saying they are the same (they're not). Just that you're reasoning is just as slight as many of those used to criticised corbyn. A feeling that they're distrustful or associate with the wrong people, also many thought corbyn didn't speak openly on a number of things, trying to sit on the fence on brexit for example (i agreed with him on this but it clearly frustrated people).

Unbelievable to me that people can't see clear blue water between starmer and the real right wing figures of the past. He's well to the left of miliband and seems to agree with Corbyn on many key issues.

I do see the need for at least a superficial break from Corbyn because unfortunately his image is tarnished in the public (completely wrongly, but even so) and RLB rating him 10/10 is pretty short sighted.

[NoSleep]

There's quite a wide band between "win at all costs" and wanting pure socialism though isn't there.. I mean Id take good economic and social policies that reduce inequality and improve peoples lives and treat migrants with respect over a Tory govt, I don't need ideological purity.

Who was talking about "ideological purity"? I was talking about not losing what we now have; essentially a way of uniting the broad left through the Labour Party. But supporting Starmer seems like giving up hope to me; I can't trust him and I don't need to, as there is another more suitable candidate.

People have likened Corbyn to Foot; I think Starmer is far more like Kinnock the embarrassing clown that followed Foot.

[Sebastian Cobb]

The Jewish Labour Movement has nominated the Chair of Labour Friends of Palestine, Lisa Nandy, to lead the Labour Party.

Seen this, FBPE are using it as concrete proof it was never about people not being allowed to be critical of Isreal. Glad we've got that sewn up!

[NoSleep]

Not saying they are the same (they're not). Just that you're reasoning is just as slight as many of those used to criticised corbyn. A feeling that they're distrustful or associate with the wrong people, also many thought corbyn didn't speak openly on a number of things, trying to sit on the fence on brexit for example (i agreed with him on this but it clearly frustrated people).

Unbelievable to me that people can't see clear blue water between starmer and the real right wing figures of the past. He's well to the left of miliband and seems to agree with Corbyn on many key issues.

I do see the need for at least a superficial break from Corbyn because unfortunately his image is tarnished in the public (completely wrongly, but even so) and RLB rating him 10/10 is pretty short sighted.

So you believe we have trick the public into thinking the party has "changed back"? What?
And where is my reasoning "slight"?:-

You don't seem to understand what's at stake here. Corbyn, or more accurately, Corbyn's supporters were a revolution in British politics and we should continue to build on what has been started. Turning back is closing a book on one of the greatest opportunities to have arrived in a lifetime. There has never been anything like this in the UK and we shouldn't lose out because of the fainthearted; it's never going to get easier.

Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, we'll the red flag flying here.

And how do you feel about a member of the Trilateral Commission leading the Labour Party? Those two organisations don't align.

[king_tubby]

I've seen a few things on the Twitter saying that Labour Friends of Palestine has been pretty much neutered under Nandy's chairship, so let's take that all with a big pinch of salt.

[Johnny Yesno]

There's quite a wide band between "win at all costs" and wanting pure socialism though isn't there.. I mean Id take good economic and social policies that reduce inequality and improve peoples lives and treat migrants with respect over a Tory govt, I don't need ideological purity.

So vote for RLB, then, since she's not offering socialism or ideological purity.

[Armin Meiwes]

Who was talking about "ideological purity"? I was talking about not losing what we now have; essentially a way of uniting the broad left through the Labour Party. But supporting Starmer seems like giving up hope to me; I can't trust him and I don't need to, as there is another more suitable candidate.

People have likened Corbyn to Foot; I think Starmer is far more like Kinnock the embarrassing clown that followed Foot.

Ah tbf my comment was in response to the fella saying this not you.

If you would like to win at all costs, or disagree with what Corbyn stood for and the policies in the 2019 manifesto, I'd suggest you start supporting the Tories like the rest of the selfish, shortsighted CUNTS in the U.K.

[Armin Meiwes]

So vote for RLB, then, since she's not offering socialism or ideological purity.

You've got it a bit back to front.. I'm saying that I will vote for whoever is most likely to win people back to the labour party AND who is also willing to offer a good chunk of what I want the labour party to represent, if I thought that was RLB then I would v happily vote for her, but I don't think it is. My comment about ideological purity was in response to the person suggesting that unless you support RLB then you want to "win at all costs" like it isn't possible to find an area in between the two.

[Replies From View]

I think it's clear though that this is a battle for the long term existence of a meaningful left wing force in British politics.  Having a little wafer-thin compromise now, based on what you're guessing will be electable in five years' time (how can you even follow that process through to a conclusion that isn't nonsense?) will obviously take us back to where we were before we had any left-wing options via Corbyn's leadership win.

Remember when you* felt it wasn't really worth voting because Labour and the Tories were creeping closer and closer together, and if you weren't a supporter of neoliberal capitalism you felt your views weren't being represented in parliament?  Well it'll be that again, except with the door absolutely locked and bolted to prevent anyone with political views even remotely close to Corbyn's, yours or mine ever getting close to power ever again.

So by all means if that's what you're happy with then vote for it.  It's what the little tiny compromise means.


* I am politely assuming that you are a thinker of some kind.

[Paul Calf]

Here's a question: given that there are fascists in Downing Street and we can basically forget the idea that they'll be dislodged via the electoral process - in fact, that free and fair Westminster elections are now a thing of the past - how should we proceed?

[Johnny Yesno]

You've got it a bit back to front.. I'm saying that I will vote for whoever is most likely to win people back to the labour party AND who is also willing to offer a good chunk of what I want the labour party to represent, if I thought that was RLB then I would v happily vote for her, but I don't think it is. My comment about ideological purity was in response to the person suggesting that unless you support RLB then you want to "win at all costs" like it isn't possible to find an area in between the two.

No. Not being willing to give up on what is at most just social democracy is not pursuing ideological purity. It was you that mentioned 'wanting pure socialism', which is a straw man.

Germany has a nationalised rail industry and a centre right government. There's so-called centrists trying to persuade us that anyone who wants a nationalised rail industry in the UK is from the hard left. You can't compromise with those people.

[Sebastian Cobb]

No. Not being willing to give up on what is at most just social democracy is not pursuing ideological purity. It was you that mentioned 'wanting pure socialism', which is a straw man.

Germany has a nationalised rail industry and a centre right government. There's so-called centrists trying to persuade us that anyone who wants a nationalised rail industry in the UK is from the hard left. You can't compromise with those people.

gaslighting people into thinking we're all on the same side.

[jamiefairlie]

Here's a question: given that there are fascists in Downing Street and we can basically forget the idea that they'll be dislodged via the electoral process - in fact, that free and fair Westminster elections are now a thing of the past - how should we proceed?

Well, to start, we should deny the reality that large swathes of our working class base have told us that they won't vote for us until we change, in fact we should tell them they're just fucking idiots and racists and demand they come crawling back. Then we should squabble and bicker about which us is the most pure socialist and spread rumours about everyone else that they're a bit suspect and not ideologically sound. Finally, we should draw up up lists of impossibly strict and unrealistic guidelines that everyone must swear they believe or else be expelled. Once we've finished purifying the party from the infestations of non-right thinkers, then we can take on the Tory scum, all three* of us!

*Although I'm not too sure about Alfie, there was just something a bit off with his micro-aggressive breathing yesterday. Need watching.

[chveik]

state of this cunt

[Replies From View]

Well, to start, we should deny the reality that large swathes of our working class base have told us that they won't vote for us until we change, in fact we should tell them they're just fucking idiots and racists and demand they come crawling back. Then we should squabble and bicker about which us is the most pure socialist and spread rumours about everyone else that they're a bit suspect and not ideologically sound. Finally, we should draw up up lists of impossibly strict and unrealistic guidelines that everyone must swear they believe or else be expelled. Once we've finished purifying the party from the infestations of non-right thinkers, then we can take on the Tory scum, all three* of us!

*Although I'm not too sure about Alfie, there was just something a bit off with his micro-aggressive breathing yesterday. Need watching.

You bothered to type that out lol

[Urinal Cake]

Here's a question: given that there are fascists in Downing Street and we can basically forget the idea that they'll be dislodged via the electoral process - in fact, that free and fair Westminster elections are now a thing of the past - how should we proceed?

Is it really that bad? Brexit warped the last election a lot. Obviously Brexit was a cover for a lot of far right stuff including anti-immigration and anti-Muslim sentiment. But you'd think that after Brexit and the UK isn't magically better the public will assume they've been cheated. You don't seem to have an many MAGA equivalents. In that way the UK public seems a lot more cynical and critical that the US public. The Tories will fuck up and they will fuck up big. I mean a bridge to Ireland- let them try and build it. Labour needs to consistently attack for now. It can come up with broadly popular left-wing policies like strengthening the NHS sooner to the next election. In short Tory incompetence should lead Labour to victory.

[NoSleep]

They have been fucking up almightily for 10 years now.

[Paul Calf]

Cummings and Johnson are currently drawing up plans to bypass scrutiny by Parliament, the judiciary and the civil service (and the NHS, the BBC) and to take direct control of processes historically protected by checks and balances. I know for certain that the civil service at least are taking this very seriously. They are destroying trust in institutions  against a background of racial hatred and targeting of minorities as scapegoats.

They are fascists. There's no more honest way to describe them. They will not be dislodged by democracy. We are playing a 20th Century game against 21st Century opposition.

The sooner we realise this, the easier it will be to correct it and the fewer people will die for it.

[Urinal Cake]

They have been fucking up almightily for 10 years now.

Brexit provided a distraction for a lot of those fuck ups and the solution to some of those.

Cummings and Johnson are currently drawing up plans to bypass scrutiny by Parliament, the judiciary and the civil service (and the NHS, the BBC) and to take direct control of processes historically protected by checks and balances. I know for certain that the civil service at least are taking this very seriously. They are destroying trust in institutions  against a background of racial hatred and targeting of minorities as scapegoats.

They are fascists. There's no more honest way to describe them. They will not be dislodged by democracy. We are playing a 20th Century game against 21st Century opposition.

The sooner we realise this, the easier it will be to correct it and the fewer people will die for it.

I think the UK judiciary isn't as stacked as the US judiciary when it comes to conservatives  etc. But if that is true and the power of unions is diminished and Johnson uses the State to squash protests than there would need to be a revolution.