Author Topic: Labour Election Hustings:What Do They Know? Do They Know Things? Let's Find Out!  (Read 11908 times)

BlodwynPig

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And there will be one... just let me watch Corrie first

No. Not being willing to give up on what is at most just social democracy is not pursuing ideological purity. It was you that mentioned 'wanting pure socialism', which is a straw man.

Germany has a nationalised rail industry and a centre right government. There's so-called centrists trying to persuade us that anyone who wants a nationalised rail industry in the UK is from the hard left. You can't compromise with those people.

I'm not giving up on social democracy, what of every promise Starmer has made isn't just bog standard social democracy? I referenced ideological purity because I was told that wanting that kind of social democracy wasn't good enough and meant I wanted to "win at all costs" and I might as well fuck off and join the Tories sounds a bit like ideological purity to me to be honest.

I'm not giving up on social democracy, what of every promise Starmer has made isn't just bog standard social democracy? I referenced ideological purity because I was told that wanting that kind of social democracy wasn't good enough and meant I wanted to "win at all costs" and I might as well fuck off and join the Tories sounds a bit like ideological purity to me to be honest.

You’re either being disingenuous or you haven’t paid any attention for the past few years beyond reading tabloid headlines.
Social democracy isn’t about having the right suit. If you think Corbyn, having produced the most socially democratic manifesto in generations, was a disaster for the party and we should move as far away from his policies as possible then you aren’t really a social democrat. Corbyn was the making of the modern Labour Party if, IF we take what he has achieved and carry it forward. Unrelenting, unashamed and undaunted.
The Tories have had wilderness years where it looked like right wing politics of the kind we have in government today was dead. But here we are. Do you recognise that attitudes and social priorities are constantly shifting? In that scenario do you believe that constantly shifting with them is really the best option? Or should we stand firmly by our principles and work on selling the argument, aware that we have the establishment against us?

NoSleep

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As Tony Benn said, some people are signposts whilst others are weathercocks.

You’re either being disingenuous or you haven’t paid any attention for the past few years beyond reading tabloid headlines.
Social democracy isn’t about having the right suit. If you think Corbyn, having produced the most socially democratic manifesto in generations, was a disaster for the party and we should move as far away from his policies as possible then you aren’t really a social democrat. Corbyn was the making of the modern Labour Party if, IF we take what he has achieved and carry it forward. Unrelenting, unashamed and undaunted.
The Tories have had wilderness years where it looked like right wing politics of the kind we have in government today was dead. But here we are. Do you recognise that attitudes and social priorities are constantly shifting? In that scenario do you believe that constantly shifting with them is really the best option? Or should we stand firmly by our principles and work on selling the argument, aware that we have the establishment against us?

Just going round in circles now - I am talking about the policies not the person, Starmer has said he will stick by the social democratic policies of the Corbyn era. So I'm not saying let's give up on the policies and go back to how things were am I? Is Starmer the ideal person to be leading that.. no of course not, but thinking that the policies are popular but Corbyn wasn't isn't exactly controversial. I wish selling those policies wasn't about "having the right suit" and looking and speaking "the right way" but it blatantly is. If you don't have that then you need a genuinely inspiring and charismatic leader, but there isn't one standing for leadership.

You’re either being disingenuous or you haven’t paid any attention for the past few years beyond reading tabloid headlines.
Social democracy isn’t about having the right suit. If you think Corbyn, having produced the most socially democratic manifesto in generations, was a disaster for the party and we should move as far away from his policies as possible then you aren’t really a social democrat. Corbyn was the making of the modern Labour Party if, IF we take what he has achieved and carry it forward. Unrelenting, unashamed and undaunted.
The Tories have had wilderness years where it looked like right wing politics of the kind we have in government today was dead. But here we are. Do you recognise that attitudes and social priorities are constantly shifting? In that scenario do you believe that constantly shifting with them is really the best option? Or should we stand firmly by our principles and work on selling the argument, aware that we have the establishment against us?

Actually are you even reading my posts here or just reading what you want to read, that's the exact opposite of what I've said - I'm going for Starmer because he has promised to stick by the direction the party is now on. I agree that he's just a weathervane but he's a weathervane with a hell of a lot better approval figures than Corbyn (or RLB), we can all pretend those things are meaningless but they end up as an anchor on the result because so many people vote for the leader not the policies, last election all anyone ever talked about was "Johnson v Corbyn" the policies barely got a look in.

In conclusion, call me a mug if you like, but I don't believe the left can easily be put back in its box now, times have changed and I certainly don't see Kier Starmer as being the person that is going to be trying to do that. The best thing the left can do now is have it's policies absorbed as just normal "mainstream" ones that no one in the labour party except those on the right fringe (Kinnock, Streeting, etc) bother to try to argue against, not elect a leader that will be written off (unfairly) as an extremist and ideologue before she's even started.

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Just going round in circles now - I am talking about the policies not the person, Starmer has said he will stick by the social democratic policies of the Corbyn era. So I'm not saying let's give up on the policies and go back to how things were am I? Is Starmer the ideal person to be leading that.. no of course not, but thinking that the policies are popular but Corbyn wasn't isn't exactly controversial. I wish selling those policies wasn't about "having the right suit" and looking and speaking "the right way" but it blatantly is. If you don't have that then you need a genuinely inspiring and charismatic leader, but there isn't one standing for leadership.

But you are putting an enormous amount of faith in Starmer not being a lying scumbag.

Endicott

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As is his right. If this decision is being reduced to 'who do you trust?', then it's all about personal judgement. Which is why this thread is now going round in circles.

As is his right. If this decision is being reduced to 'who do you trust?', then it's all about personal judgement. Which is why this thread is now going round in circles.

If the decision is reduced to ‘who do you trust’ which is all any leadership election can be, surely you research backgrounds? If in the course of that research you uncover the fact that one candidate has a lot of murky grey areas and has spent the previous leaders tenure undermining him, whilst the other does not and is actually endorsed by the outgoing leader, and you are still adamantly supporting the former with the argument that he’s somehow more ‘electable’, then you are being disingenuous.

Johnny Yesno

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I wish selling those policies wasn't about "having the right suit" and looking and speaking "the right way" but it blatantly is.

It blatantly isn't. Have you not seen our prime minister? Did you not notice the Labour membership swell under Corbyn. Clearly, there are other forces than don't-scare-the-horses suit-wearing at play.

Quote
If you don't have that then you need a genuinely inspiring and charismatic leader, but there isn't one standing for leadership.

I remember having these same conversations back in the early days of Corbyn vs. May. People used to go on about how great May was in PMQs and how shit Corbyn was by comparison and I'd be wondering if we had been watching the same videos. And then it became more and more apparent that it was just hot air and the name Maybot was born.

I'm feeling the same here. What are you seeing that I'm not?

I watch Starmer, I watch RLB, and I ask myself who I feel I could be arsed to go out door knocking in the rain for. I'm afraid Starmer just doesn't inspire me in the same way. It's going to be a much bigger ask if he wins the leadership. Is that the sign of a good leader?

In conclusion, call me a mug if you like, but I don't believe the left can easily be put back in its box now

Don't kid yourself. It can easily be put back in its box. The likes of Akehurst and others from Labour First are determined to purge the left from Labour. This is my main problem with a Starmer leadership: it will give those cunts a stronger position.

I've seen a few things on the Twitter saying that Labour Friends of Palestine has been pretty much neutered under Nandy's chairship, so let's take that all with a big pinch of salt.

Got any examples of this please?

It blatantly isn't. Have you not seen our prime minister? Did you not notice the Labour membership swell under Corbyn. Clearly, there are other forces than don't-scare-the-horses suit-wearing at play.

I remember having these same conversations back in the early days of Corbyn vs. May. People used to go on about how great May was in PMQs and how shit Corbyn was by comparison and I'd be wondering if we had been watching the same videos. And then it became more and more apparent that it was just hot air and the name Maybot was born.

I'm feeling the same here. What are you seeing that I'm not?

I watch Starmer, I watch RLB, and I ask myself who I feel I could be arsed to go out door knocking in the rain for. I'm afraid Starmer just doesn't inspire me in the same way. It's going to be a much bigger ask if he wins the leadership. Is that the sign of a good leader?

Don't kid yourself. It can easily be put back in its box. The likes of Akehurst and others from Labour First are determined to purge the left from Labour. This is my main problem with a Starmer leadership: it will give those cunts a stronger position.

I don't quite understand your point re May v Corbyn.. I'm saying that *none* of the leadership candidates are either particularly inspiring or charismatic.. I also didn't think corbyn was charismatic BUT I did think he was inspiring, hence like you said 500k people becoming members of the labour party. I wish RLB was a similarly inspiring presence but I don't think she is, this all sounds like I think she's SHIT but I don't, I think she'll make a good shadow (and hopefully eventually actual) minister but I don't think people will vote for her in the numbers that will vote for Starmer, that's not because I think he's such an amazing politician (I think he's absolutely fine but nothing more) it's simply based on how I think people respond to leaders.. like I said Labours best chance (*imo*) is to have fairly radical policies sold by someone everyone will look at as "sensible" and "moderate".  I don't think RLB will sell those policies to people well because she will immediately get trashed as an ideologue, and sadly British people don't seem to respond well to radicalism unless it's anti migrant anti poor radicalism. Problem is it's difficult to discuss any of this without sounding totally black and white.. you don't *have* to be a "sensible" person that wears a nice suit and speaks in a certain way, some people can come along that turn those things upside down.. look at Bernie Sanders for example.. but those people don't come along too often and unfortunately the Labour left don't seem to have anyone like that at the moment, hopefully they will next time round.

Johnny Yesno

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I don't quite understand your point re May v Corbyn..

I'm just saying that the received wisdom was that May was wiping the floor with Corbyn and that I never could see what the people saying that were on about.

This is a similar situation in that I can't see why Starmer is the sensible option. What's sensible about choosing a leader who is uninspiring? On the other hand, I do find RLB inspiring when she's discussing politics. You should watch the TyskySour interview with her, if you haven't already.

Anyway, Len McCluskey agrees with you on the subject of whether Labour can be turned back to a neoliberal party. A few minutes later, Michael Walker articulates nicely the Labour left's concerns about electing Starmer as leader and it doesn't involve calling Starmer a liar:

Why Trade Unions Matter: https://youtu.be/IO3Q-4GLjes?t=47m46s

McCluskey's answer: that's why we chose Becky.

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I don't quite understand your point re May v Corbyn.. I'm saying that *none* of the leadership candidates are either particularly inspiring or charismatic.. I also didn't think corbyn was charismatic BUT I did think he was inspiring, hence like you said 500k people becoming members of the labour party. I wish RLB was a similarly inspiring presence but I don't think she is, this all sounds like I think she's SHIT but I don't, I think she'll make a good shadow (and hopefully eventually actual) minister but I don't think people will vote for her in the numbers that will vote for Starmer, that's not because I think he's such an amazing politician (I think he's absolutely fine but nothing more) it's simply based on how I think people respond to leaders.. like I said Labours best chance (*imo*) is to have fairly radical policies sold by someone everyone will look at as "sensible" and "moderate".  I don't think RLB will sell those policies to people well because she will immediately get trashed as an ideologue, and sadly British people don't seem to respond well to radicalism unless it's anti migrant anti poor radicalism. Problem is it's difficult to discuss any of this without sounding totally black and white.. you don't *have* to be a "sensible" person that wears a nice suit and speaks in a certain way, some people can come along that turn those things upside down.. look at Bernie Sanders for example.. but those people don't come along too often and unfortunately the Labour left don't seem to have anyone like that at the moment, hopefully they will next time round.

Why do you think people are getting into their heads that RLB is an ideologue, or not sensible or moderate?  I mean really - do you think they have done any research to reach this position?  Or do you reckon perhaps that they've been given this character review by their trusty news channels and tabloids, and so they unthinkingly believe it.

It's almost as if the media poison is already working its magic.  If they carry it to its conclusion they need never worry again about anyone to the left of David Cameron getting within throwing distance of power in this country.

They're the Continuity Slurs

6 Music just reporting that RLB said at the Glasgow hustings she wouldn't block an independence ref if asked for one. No other news on the event at all.

Paul Calf

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Having seen Peston bullying RLB into a hard position on antisemitism, allowing a right-wing religious group the power of veto over large areas of policy on that car crash interview, I’m convinced that she’s not up to the job. I’ll still vote for her because the rest of them are lying toads, empty suits or cunts in sheep’s clothing but fuck me, what a state of affairs.

Quite like the way RLB comes across in interviews, however the consensus among people I speak to who arn't really into labour politics seems to be that she's viewed as Corbyn in a wig, and that keir starmer is the only decent candidate.

keir starmer sent me a text today. should i tell him to fuck off and that i bong daily for long bailey


BlodwynPig

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Quite like the way RLB comes across in interviews, however the consensus among people I speak to who arn't really into labour politics seems to be that she's viewed as Corbyn in a wig, and that keir starmer is the only decent candidate.

You hang around with nonces?

Blumf

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keir starmer sent me a text today. should i tell him to fuck off and that i bong daily for long bailey

He sent me wife a text n all, the dirty bollocks!

Lordofthefiles

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keir starmer sent me a text today. should i tell him to fuck off and that i bong daily for long bailey

It's been a great day for texts, Starmer, Rayner and "Doctor Rosena" have all been in touch asking how I'm voting and if I'll consider voting for them.

And you know what?
Not a single "X", 🤣 Or 🍆💦 from any of the bastads.
Fuck em.

Having seen Peston bullying RLB into a hard position on antisemitism, allowing a right-wing religious group the power of veto over large areas of policy on that car crash interview, I’m convinced that she’s not up to the job. I’ll still vote for her because the rest of them are lying toads, empty suits or cunts in sheep’s clothing but fuck me, what a state of affairs.

I've been on the fence between Burgon and Butler for deputy, but this whole ridiculous farce has pushed me towards Burgon. I like Butler, and her "let's wait for the EHRC report before we sign up to anything" stance is preferable to the moral abdications of the other candidates for leader and deputy. But whoever we end up with as leader we need a deputy who is going to be absolutely rock solidly on our side when it comes to their principles and their backbone, and Burgon has made it unequivocally clear that's where he is.

What frustrates me most about this anti-semitism farrago is, they all know. The leadership contenders all know. Everyone in the Labour party knows. Everyone in the Tories knows. Everyone at the BoD knows. All the media know. They all know the anti-semitism "crisis" narrative is utter bollocks, they're all engaging in this ridiculous performance of faux-concern, wandering further and further down this pointless and endless path despite knowing full well they're blowing miles off course. And the result of that has been to make a lot of people who don't know (jewish and non-jewish alike) genuinely think there's a "crisis". And all of them except Burgon (and Butler to an extent) are going along with it rather than saying "well hang on, the emperor might be wearing a novelty jock-strap but apart from that he's got fuck all on".

The other thing making Burgon the best shout for deputy leader is that if Nandy or Starmer win, Burgon probably won't be in the shadow cabinet whereas Butler is a pretty safe bet to stay (and perhaps move to a higher-profile position) whoever wins. So him being deputy is a good fall-back for the left to retain a prominent voice.

You hang around with nonces?

No.  I post on here though, assuming you're a nonce?

owned


Johnny Yesno

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What frustrates me most about this anti-semitism farrago is, they all know. The leadership contenders all know. Everyone in the Labour party knows. Everyone in the Tories knows. Everyone at the BoD knows. All the media know.

And, worryingly, the far right know.

BlodwynPig

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No.  I post on here though, assuming you're a nonce?

Simple pie and pint man

pancreas

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