Topic: That Harley Quinn movie

[El Unicornio, mang]

while DC largely shits out middling-to-awful gubbins made by filmmakers seemingly selected at random and seems to assume that audiences will come regardless.

I'd rate Wonder Woman and the Dark Knight Trilogy as highly as the MCU stuff, but then there's the Suicide Squad, Justice League, etc which are a bit poor. I'm a bit more into the darker DC line like Hellblazer (sadly given short thrift on TV and the poor film) and Watchmen, still need to watch that new TV series. Kind of burned out on Iron Man, Spider-Man, etc.

[Mister Six]

Wonder Woman was all right, but had a saggy middle act and a daft finale, and looked like shit. I'd say it's somewhere around the middle of the MCU in terms of quality.

The Dark Knight trilogy doesn't count, as that's pre-DCEU (ie. Before they were trying to compete with MCU). Also I think The Dark Knight is the only genuinely great film in that trilogy. Rises in particular was, er, risible. YMMV (and does, clearly) though.

They keep threatening to do a Justice League Dark film with Colin Farrell as Constantine, but that's probably never going to happen (just as well, I think). The Watchmen show was excellent though.

Ace DCEU film:
Shazam!

Good DCEU film:
Wonder Woman

Middling DCEU film:
The Man of Steel (proto-DCEU but grandfathered in; better if you're less of a Superman purist than me)

Naff DCEU films with occasional good bits:
Aquaman
Birds of Prey

Absolute dogshit:
Suicide Squad
Batman V Superman
Justice League
Joker (dunno if it counts)

Am holding out hope that future films - including James Gunn's Suicide Squad reboot and the WW and Shazam! sequel - will drag the whole thing back on track, but I've been saying that for years, and I can't help but feel the whole thing is just utterly fucking bungled at this point.

What the execs need is someone like Kevin Feige, who knows the comics but also understands how films work, and can develop a flexible, forward-thinking masterplan. Instead they're all reeling from one poorly conceived disaster to the next, hiring inexperienced filmmakers and then leaning over their shoulders while trying to second-guess what the audience might want.

[Catalogue Trousers]

We may not agree on everything, Mister Six, but your judgement there (Joker excepted) pretty much coincides with mine. As long as we get a Shazam! sequel or two of equal enjoyability as the first, then I'll be happy (and hopefully we'll get Mr Tawky Tawny and the Monster Society Of Evil - and hopefully confirmation of my personal theory that the bewildered old guy who keeps recurring in the first is good ol' fraudulent Uncle Dudley).

[samadriel]

I'd rate Wonder Woman and the Dark Knight Trilogy as highly as the MCU stuff, but then there's the Suicide Squad, Justice League, etc which are a bit poor. I'm a bit more into the darker DC line like Hellblazer (sadly given short thrift on TV and the poor film) and Watchmen, still need to watch that new TV series. Kind of burned out on Iron Man, Spider-Man, etc.

Definitely check out the Watchmen TV series; it's light on the superheroics, and explores a post-squid world interestingly. It also finds other worthwhile, adult subject matter to concern itself with, so it's nothing like Zack Snyder's pointlessly slavish yet childishly exaggerated movie. And it's a single, self-contained season - I suspect the only reason it wasn't called a miniseries was HBO hedging it's bets that it could be strung on and on after Lindelof was done - so you don't have to worry about it letting you down and leaving you hanging for an ending.

[chveik]

Kevin Beige more like

[El Unicornio, mang]

I liked Man of Steel up to a point about half way (I recall kind of disliking the big fight scene). Cavill did a good job with what he was given. Superman 1978 remains my favourite superhero film, probably paired with II (either cut), Reeve was just perfect. IV is possibly the worst film I've ever seen in my life. But, those are going way back...

I'll check out the Watchmen series.

[SteveDave]

And it's a single, self-contained season - I suspect the only reason it wasn't called a miniseries was HBO hedging it's bets that it could be strung on and on after Lindelof was done - so you don't have to worry about it letting you down and leaving you hanging for an ending.

I was unaware it was a one and done. I was expecting it be dragged out. I might watch it now then.

[Jockice]

I saw this with a couple of mates who are into superhero stuff. Which I'm emphatically not. It was quite entertaining although I didn't have the slightest idea what was going on most of the time. I'd never ever heard of Harley Quinn beforehand though. Which is quite strange because my surname is...oh, you're not supposed to know that are you?

[mjwilson]

What the execs need is someone like Kevin Feige, who knows the comics but also understands how films work, and can develop a flexible, forward-thinking masterplan. Instead they're all reeling from one poorly conceived disaster to the next, hiring inexperienced filmmakers and then leaning over their shoulders while trying to second-guess what the audience might want.

I feel like they might as well just give up on having a masterplan. Don't try to do what Marvel are doing, forget about continuity and arcs, just make good standalone films. Maybe the odd crossover from the elements which end up working.

[Mister Six]

Yeah it looked like they were going in that direction with Joker etc, but I note now that it's not considered part of the DCEU. But yeah, just making lots of good individual films in all different styles would go some way towards justifying their existence.

Unfortunately here's the list of upcoming films, in order: Wonder Woman 2, "The Batman" (maybe unconnected to the rest?), Suicide Squad 2, Black Adam (Shazam spin-off), Shazam 2, The Flash (possibly another reboot), Aquaman 2.

The unbelievable fuckups that are the DC and Star Wars universes ought to leave Hollywood seriously rethinking how it approaches this kind of thing. Of course, it won't. Because the suits know nothing. And "nothing" includes the very fact that they know nothing...

[El Unicornio, mang]

I'm looking forward to Wonder Woman 2 and The Batman. I rate Pattinson pretty highly as an actor, and from the pics I've seen they seem to be trying something a bit different. I've heard it will be more the detective side of the character. The others I can't be bothered with. Might watch Aquaman 2, didn't hate the first one.

[samadriel]

Shazam was downright good, its progeny could be worth watching.

[Mister Six]

Aye, Shazam was the only really glittering spot in the DCEU so far for me.

I'm looking forward to Wonder Woman 2 and The Batman. I rate Pattinson pretty highly as an actor, and from the pics I've seen they seem to be trying something a bit different. I've heard it will be more the detective side of the character. The others I can't be bothered with. Might watch Aquaman 2, didn't hate the first one.

Pattinson is great and Matt Reeves' Planet of the Apes films were superb, so I'm very hopeful for that as a film in of itself. I just think it's a silly shame that DC (whose comics I generally prefer to Marvel's) bungled its own joined-up universe so badly that it's had to recast two of its main superheroes in Batman and The Flash.[1]

Aquaman had the seeds of a fun film but was brought down by an overly complicated backstory that seemed better suited to a Game of Thrones-esque TV megaseries than a two-and-a-half hour film. The 40 minutes or so where it turned into Romancing the Stone was enjoyable, so if they can lean into that a bit more it could be great.

Wonder Woman 2 I'm hopeful for, but a lot of the enjoyment in WW1 was Diana's naiveté contrasted with her kicking arse, so let's see if that remains (also, as mentioned, it was structurally a bit wonky).

James Gunn's Suicide Squad should be good fun at the very least.

So yeah, things are looking up. I just wish it hadn't taken them half a decade and a bunch of shit films to get to this point.

1.	As well as having a totally fucked, tonally incoherent universe and ensuring most of its output is crap.

[El Unicornio, mang]

I think there might be a bit of fun to be squeezed out of the 80s setting of Wonder Woman, at least. 80s nostalgia in movies/TV has been done a lot in the past few years but I'm a sucker for it.

Actually, I still haven't watched Shazam but have heard lots of good things about it so I'll get on that one soon.

[dissolute ocelot]

Fuck, just watched this and it's indeed a mess. First half hour, Harley Quinn is completely useless at everything, then suddenly she becomes an all-powerful ass-kicking machine. Now clearly if she's the hero she has to be able to kick ass but Robbie isn't terribly convincing - she's no Charlize Theron, for instance.

Also, the villain is crap, and while the film is about recovering a diamond with some kind of secret to it, there's zero effort expended in making us care about any of this or showing how powerful or dangerous the diamond is. In the Maltese Falcon it's a stupid bird but you understand why people kill for it. Not here.

It makes heavy use of voiceover and flashback, which aren't in themselves bad things even though lots of people say they are, but the filmmakers seem too embarrassed to have worked out how to do it properly. The likes of Zombieland, Deadpool, Bridget Jones use VO, fourth-wall-breaking, and stuff, to build up a relationship with the audience, let us in on things, establish a bond, but in Birds of Prey or whatever it's called, the voiceovers are so dull and functional and tell us stuff we don't need to know. Men wronged her! Wow, that's surprising news. And why does it use non-linear time? Because that's edgy.

It doesn't help either that Margot Robbie's voice is fucking annoying and the film can't really decide if she's morally reprehensible, a loveable rogue, or a hero. As I said, is she clueless or bad-ass? Harley Quinn is a character who (to be kind) different writers have different interpretations of, but make your mind up, choose a side. The other Birds of Prey are potentially interesting but all horribly underwritten too. Doing a good superhero movie is hard, requiring a command of tone to avoid complete ridiculousness, it needs skill orchestrating action sequences, and keeping a human element. HQ and the Sorceror's Stone doesn't do any of that: there are some quite good bits, but it doesn't work at all as a whole.
                     
And why the fuck does she wear a t-shirt with her own name on it? The sort of thing only the worst bands do. I'm not even sure it's better than Suicide Squad, which was awful in many ways but at least had a plot and some characterisation.

[C_Larence]

Fuck, just watched this and it's indeed a mess. First half hour, Harley Quinn is completely useless at everything, then suddenly she becomes an all-powerful ass-kicking machine. Now clearly if she's the hero she has to be able to kick ass but Robbie isn't terribly convincing - she's no Charlize Theron, for instance.

Also, the villain is crap, and while the film is about recovering a diamond with some kind of secret to it, there's zero effort expended in making us care about any of this or showing how powerful or dangerous the diamond is. In the Maltese Falcon it's a stupid bird but you understand why people kill for it. Not here.

It makes heavy use of voiceover and flashback, which aren't in themselves bad things even though lots of people say they are, but the filmmakers seem too embarrassed to have worked out how to do it properly. The likes of Zombieland, Deadpool, Bridget Jones use VO, fourth-wall-breaking, and stuff, to build up a relationship with the audience, let us in on things, establish a bond, but in Birds of Prey or whatever it's called, the voiceovers are so dull and functional and tell us stuff we don't need to know. Men wronged her! Wow, that's surprising news. And why does it use non-linear time? Because that's edgy.

It doesn't help either that Margot Robbie's voice is fucking annoying and the film can't really decide if she's morally reprehensible, a loveable rogue, or a hero. As I said, is she clueless or bad-ass? Harley Quinn is a character who (to be kind) different writers have different interpretations of, but make your mind up, choose a side. The other Birds of Prey are potentially interesting but all horribly underwritten too. Doing a good superhero movie is hard, requiring a command of tone to avoid complete ridiculousness, it needs skill orchestrating action sequences, and keeping a human element. HQ and the Sorceror's Stone doesn't do any of that: there are some quite good bits, but it doesn't work at all as a whole.
                     
And why the fuck does she wear a t-shirt with her own name on it? The sort of thing only the worst bands do. I'm not even sure it's better than Suicide Squad, which was awful in many ways but at least had a plot and some characterisation.

Pretty much agree with all of this, but I thought the action was very good! Wasn’t surprised to learn afterwards that those scenes were directed by Chad Stahelski (John Wick)

[Shameless Custard]

Thought this was alright, bordering on good. Was certainly entertained by much of it. The action scenes are genuinely good and some of the jokes landed for me also

I've never really rated Robbie as Harley Quinn before, but I thought she was pretty good with what she was given here. It's easily a better film than Suicide Squad, but still a fair way from being as good as it should be

It was clearly in thrall of Deadpool, though not as funny or inventive with it. Shazam was funnier too, but this is still easily one of the better DCU films

3 loafs

[dissolute ocelot]

Pretty much agree with all of this, but I thought the action was very good! Wasn’t surprised to learn afterwards that those scenes were directed by Chad Stahelski (John Wick)

Some of the action is very good but it's like in a bad musical where people break into song for no reason, bash out an irrelevant pop hit that's nonetheless better than what the actors were doing before, and return to what passes for a plot.

[purlieu]

Aquaman had the seeds of a fun film but was brought down by an overly complicated backstory that seemed better suited to a Game of Thrones-esque TV megaseries than a two-and-a-half hour film.

I think this ties in a bit with the general success of the Arrowverse - for whatever reason, the DC TV stuff seems to be working a lot better than the films, in exactly the opposite way of Marvel who have redefined movie franchises but largely failed on a TV crossover so far.