Rape on PornHub

[idunnosomename]

As an ethical porn-consumer, i only commission unbirthing porn from carbon-neutral furry artists

[evilcommiedictator]

Beard

[kittens]

well, fucking hell. i've definitely seen some of the 'girls do porn' stuff in the past and just assumed it's fine. you don't know what goes into making this stuff. that bbc story is horrible. time to stop watching porn i guess.

[earl_sleek]

Well I think porn producers (do they still have ties to the mafia or is that another unfounded myth? They certainly have ties to prostitution and shady 'modelling agencies' and hence organised crime)

Evidence?

know better than to attempt to exploit women with the resources or wherewithal to pursue their exploiters in the courts. Especially when they've been coerced into reading a disclaimer to camera while holding their passport.

Not saying this has never happened, but where's the evidence it happens often?

And (perhaps) have a rather twisted view of what constitutes normal sex due to having been treated in a similar way too many times before.

Again with the "most pornstars were abused as children" line. Needs evidence (not just someone's opinion).

Heaps of porn exploit the idea of exploiting women and pushing their boundaries, coercing them into going a 'bit further' - the whole 'casting couch' subgenre for example.

I have seen this genre myself and agree that it's gross. I think it's worth clarifying I'm not trying to argue that there is no problematic or exploitative porn - just that it's often stated that all or most porn is of this nature, usually without any support other than the usual cliches and hearsay, which I think is an exaggeration.

A handful of ex pornstars have opened up about how institutionally abusive the industry is. Although they tend to shy away from naming and shaming directly.

Yes, I don't dispute that some ex pornstars have criticised the industry or their particular treatment in it, and what happened to them was wrong. But it doesn't follow that literally all porn, or most of it, is the product of abuse. It's also not difficult to find accounts from current and ex porn stars that are positive about their work.

Again to be clear, what happened to the woman mentioned to the OP is indefensible, and I do agree that the porn industry could probably do more to prevent similar occurrences. But I also think jumping to "omg all porn is rape!!!" isn't helpful either. I'm finding these arguments very Linehan-esque tbh.

[Space ghost]

Ok coomer

[idunnosomename]

And that's all we have time for on The Moral Maze this week.

[bgmnts]

I suppose we can all still watch hentai!

[Blumf]

I suppose we can all still watch hentai!

Drawn by North Korean slave labour!!!

[Zetetic]

You'd think it'd be the opposite, right?

Not really, given the challenges of data collection and scoping.

What we can do is look to paradigmatic cases to give us some insight into relevant causal routes, giving us some idea of whether the industry (multifaceted though it clearly is) tends to encourage or discourage coercion etc. Doesn't give us much in the way of a precise sense of scale, of course - but then I think we probably lack for this for the industry as a whole.

[New folder]

You made a hasty generalisation and are now attacking people for pointing that out. Why?

It was far from hasty. I actually have a quite a lot of knowledge on this matter, given my life circumstances thus far. Luckily I have no direct experience myself, but I know a lot of fellow Eastern European women who were "sex workers" in Western Europe, so think I can say, quite un-hastily, that porn is exploitative.

[New folder]

Find it a bit suspicious that apparently trafficking and coercion are regular occurrences in the porn industry yet nobody can ever provide statistics or evidence for it beyond isolated cases (which are horrible for those involved, sure, but using unusual occurrences as if they're the norm is a bullshit argument). You'd think it'd be the opposite, right?

Almost like it's a black market where it's impossible to perform the broad statistical analysis required by people who refuse to believe the obvious.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The more relevant comments about the content of porn (the presentation of it vs. how it was made, anyway) are inevitably more likely going to come from people who access it regularly and recently via these platforms, vs. those relying on (for example) broadsheet journalism, high brow magazine articles and anecdotal evidence. Journalism on moral issues has invariably focused on risk of harm to the vulnerable, whether that's computer games, etc, but there is a habit of the content coming across as 'I just peeked behind this curtain and bloody hell' rather than 'I have taken the opportunity to consider and attempt to understand this'.

Yes, that anyone who spends a notable amount of time doing something is inclined to want to not change that, and work arguments around defending the status quo is kind of obvious, but it's important to distinguish between whether their counter arguments are valid or not nevertheless, rather than just dismiss them.

To broaden the discussion further, do you think it is any more or less ethical to watch live or very recently uploaded stuff vs. rips of decades old content? Or are there just different, but similarly significant risks to either?

[New folder]

You're pissing in the wind[nb]A niche genre that nonetheless has its enthusiastic supporters[/nb] on this website, luv. There are a lot of people on here who use free porn often and some of them who have partners hide their use of porn from their partners. The men of CaB are keen to thunderously and righteously defend socialism, veganism, environmentalism, animal rights, LBGT rights, but they refuse to be made to feel uncomfortable or guilty when it comes to wanking over images of a trafficked teen being gangbanged. In previous discussions on porn we've had regular posters explaining pompously why they nowadays only watch 'amateur' porn, like that makes them a beacon of thoughtful respect we should all aspire to.

Unfortunately it also does horrible things to their brains that they don't even realise, hence their bizarre defensiveness. Half the world is hooked on virtual heroin and they can't admit it, such is the nature of addiction.

[Brundle-Fly]

Unfortunately it also does horrible things to their brains that they don't even realise,

CaB?

[chveik]

I think that porn industry can be very exploitative but also, some actors don't consider themselves as victims and there are studios more ethical than others. amateur is quite dodgy I reckon, you have no real of way of knowing if there was no coercion involved.

still, the "whole men of cab" argument can fuck off, because as always there are a range of views on the subject. it's understable that people want to have some sort of evidence, I doubt all the persons involved in porn would get behind you on the "porn is evil" stance. I guess it's easier to be patronizing.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I think we can start by - hopefully - finding a consensus that there isn't anything wrong with being physically aroused by the sight of sex acts or erotica, or acting on that arousal by wanking.

I also believe it is objectively true that informed enthusiastic consent can be given by a person or by people to film themselves having sex in the knowledge that will be watched by 3rd parties and probably masturbated over. Therefore there isn't anything wrong with that or the above physical reaction interacting, whether that interaction is on Pornhub or not.

So there is a basis for defending the existence and use of pornography. The fact many of it is unethical and impossible to trace consent doesn't detract from the fact it is possible to find porn that does reach a threshold where you can assert it is made ethically and with the informed consent of the person or persons engaged with it.

People have mental health issues, this applies in all walks of life, many of which have key responsibilities which if not fulfilled can endanger themselves and others. They are all different and pornography especially given the demand for young women. But there is something inherently dishonest about trying to claim that the state of existence for most people, wage slavery, doesn't involve exploitation of a vulnerability. Exploitation is how profit is extracted. Conversely, watching clearly mutually enjoyed consensual sex by humans, even if we agree that doesn't represent the vast majority of porn available, is about innocent as you get. It is out there.

So it's a messy feelings kidney, whichever way you slice it.

Maybe a tiny step forward would be to compel these sites to review content more rigidly and encourage the site users to report stuff. I mean, at the minute there are videos that describe clips about as close to rape as you can get without using the word.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It was far from hasty. I actually have a quite a lot of knowledge on this matter, given my life circumstances thus far. Luckily I have no direct experience myself, but I know a lot of fellow Eastern European women who were "sex workers" in Western Europe, so think I can say, quite un-hastily, that porn is exploitative.

Nobody would have disagreed with the statement 'porn is exploitative' or 'porn can be exploitative', but when you start using things like 'most porn' and 'most women' it looks like a hasty generalisation. Especially when combined with evasive tactics such as pleas to emotion, ad-homming and claiming to know things whilst being abstruse about what they are.

[thenoise]

#notallporn

[Thursday]

Look at the first two responses to New Folder

Not doubting you. I have no disagreements that a lot of women suffer some in some/many ways in the porn industry. But have you got any data for 'Most porn involves trafficked or exploited women' - Are these Asian, Eastern European and South American women? But how does that compare to the % of porn movies pumped out (heh) by legit, above board safe industries - Western Europe (I assume has higher standards) as does the bigger companies in American porn.

I'm not in anyway denying many, many women are exploited, just more interested in the data, rather than doubting you.

I don't disagree with your sentiments - but where are your metrics from?

Nobody is even doubting the claims made, just that the suggestion that this is the majority of porn sounds a bit odd and wanting some more links or clarity on that claim of exactly what porn is being talked about.

But then the response is

"Is this is a joke?! I see the men of CaB don't care about the rape and exploitation and want to have their guilt free wanks"

It's an incredibly easy argument to win, because you know most men will watch porn, and will probably have unknowingly watched stuff that was exploitative, and you can use that as an easy attack. People were seeking a better understanding, it wasn't just "men of CaB being defensive" There wasn't any need to start attacking.

[Space ghost]

Have a look at the recent "Girls do porn" scandal and subsequent courtcase for a good case study on coersion, harassment and illegality in the 'safe and regulated' western porn industry. It intersects with the 'wokeness' of pornhub and amateur porn discussions rather well too.

Just adding this link explaining the court case
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/10/pornography-misogyny-women

[Kelvin]

The only porn I'd watch is a video called "Men of CaB", and even then, only if Neil stood in the background showing off all the consent forms.

[idunnosomename]

i love wanking