Author Topic: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?  (Read 1168 times)

Fambo Number Mive

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I'm not defending criminal behaviour and according to the government some of those being deported have committed serious crimes.

However, I don't see any logic in deporting people for crimes. It comes across as xenophobic - someone from outside the UK gets a harsher punishment than someone inside the UK. Why is it any better if someone reoffends at a later date in the country they emigrated to the UK from than the UK? We are all people, and surely an offence in Jamaica is just as bad as an offence in the UK.

It also means that other countries can deport UK nationals who are living abroad and offend back to the UK. Doesn't that put dangerous people on our streets?

Also, given the mistakes over Windrush, how do we know that some of all of thos being deported aren't British nationals?

I agree with Diane Abbott on this. I know the 2007 law was introduced by New Labour but that's one more piece of evidence showing how crap New Labour were.

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2020, 05:32:41 PM »
This case is particularly unfair:

Quote
Otis Lewis, 36, arrived in the UK in 2002. In 2012 he was convicted of possession of a firearm under joint enterprise rules. There was no physical evidence linking him to the gun found at his friend’s home, which was raided by police when Lewis was visiting. Lewis said he had no knowledge that the gun was there, but he was convicted nonetheless. He tried to get his conviction overturned but did not succeed.

“I said to myself: these things happen for a reason. Now I work with young people and try to encourage them that violence is not the way,” said Lewis. He is a reggae musician using the stage name Ricardo Rawal, and says he tries to send positive messages to young people through his lyrics.

Lewis was informed that he was being deported to Jamaica, and was perplexed when he received a removal notice from the Home Office erroneously saying he was being removed to Albania.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/10/jamaican-born-deportees-mount-last-minute-challenges-against-home-office

Famous Mortimer

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2020, 05:43:39 PM »
It is possible that he's lying about having no knowledge of the gun being there. One would assume that's the most common defence to charges of this particular crime.

Quote
“The men involved in the murders of my cousins have warned our family not to return to Jamaica or we will be murdered too,” said Finlay.
Is this communication not enough to get the Jamaican authorities to do something? Is there a paper trail? Phone call recording? Could these murderers not get on a plane to Britain and finish the job?

As I live overseas now, I've had to be careful at times about what I do. There have been people arrested at political events I've attended, and even though I'm right at the bottom of the list of people who need to be worried about this stuff, there's always a chance. Admittedly, I'd be going back to a small town slowly going down the shitter, not murder at the hands of hoodlums, but still.



Fambo Number Mive

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2020, 06:26:12 PM »
It's very easy for politicians to get public support for these deportations because most people just think "less criminals in the UK" and some people are outright bigots who are just glad at people being deported.

Good to see a number of MPs are opposing the deportations.


Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2020, 07:06:35 PM »
What's the alternative? Pay to keep people in prison?

If you caught someone half-inching your silverware when you had them round for dinner would you call the police and demand they press charges or would you simply tell them to get out of your house?

The link you posted about the guy getting done for a gun under joint enterprise is tragically unjust due to the bollocks that is JE rather than deportation; losing 5-10 years of your life is similarly unjust, I think.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2020, 07:49:42 PM »
The logic is that people from other countries are here on the understanding that they'll abide by the rules. So easy is this concept to grasp, most people don't need it spelling out to them. Even when I'm on holiday, I generally assume that things which are illegal in my country (waving axes about on the high street, touching up children) will probably be illegal in theirs as well. Because I also assume said country wouldn't want me on state benefits, I also tend to work on the assumption that they wouldn't be happy feeding and clothing me in prison either. Neither of these things are mine by right, they are luxuries granted at the discretion of the state.

Unless we're talking about refugees fleeing political oppression, I imagine this, rather than being crow-eyed xenophobes looking to rid the Isles of pesky foreigners, is what most other people are thinking when they say: "Deport them, let their own country deal with them".

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2020, 07:51:26 PM »
At first I read the thread title as "Dating people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?" And I thought "Phwoar, I didn't know that was a thing, sign me up!"


imitationleather

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2020, 08:00:22 PM »
At first I read the thread title as "Dating people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?" And I thought "Phwoar, I didn't know that was a thing, sign me up!"

https://meet-an-inmate.com/

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2020, 08:02:04 PM »
They've all had a conjugal visit by the time i've.

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2020, 08:03:56 PM »
Shamima Begum anyone?

UK gov has acted wrongly by removing her British Citizenship irrespective of what you think of her and what's she's done and whether she could get Bangladeshi citizenship or not.

They have broken International Law by making her stateless because she has no other citizenship right now and as it stands that's all that should be considered from a legal perspective.


Fambo Number Mive

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2020, 08:12:16 PM »
The logic is that people from other countries are here on the understanding that they'll abide by the rules. So easy is this concept to grasp, most people don't need it spelling out to them. Even when I'm on holiday, I generally assume that things which are illegal in my country (waving axes about on the high street, touching up children) will probably be illegal in theirs as well. Because I also assume said country wouldn't want me on state benefits, I also tend to work on the assumption that they wouldn't be happy feeding and clothing me in prison either. Neither of these things are mine by right, they are luxuries granted at the discretion of the state.

Unless we're talking about refugees fleeing political oppression, I imagine this, rather than being crow-eyed xenophobes looking to rid the Isles of pesky foreigners, is what most other people are thinking when they say: "Deport them, let their own country deal with them".

The expectation for everyone in a country, not just people from abroad, is that they abide by the rules. If they don't, we have a legal system for that. It seems silly to include an additional punishment, in many cases involving deporting people back to countries they haven't been to in decades, just because they were born in another country. It doesn't seem to adhere much to trusting rehabilitation.

Again I am not defending criminal behaviour, but I do feel this one strike and out for foreign nationals is harsh. The prison sentence and associated requirements should be punishment enough.

canadagoose

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2020, 08:18:32 PM »
Yeah but the thickos love deporting the foreigns, so any logic or compassion must immediately be discarded.

FerriswheelBueller

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2020, 09:08:09 PM »
The expectation for everyone in a country, not just people from abroad, is that they abide by the rules. If they don't, we have a legal system for that. It seems silly to include an additional punishment, in many cases involving deporting people back to countries they haven't been to in decades, just because they were born in another country. It doesn't seem to adhere much to trusting rehabilitation.

Again I am not defending criminal behaviour, but I do feel this one strike and out for foreign nationals is harsh. The prison sentence and associated requirements should be punishment enough.

Is there any weighting applied to the severity of the one strike though? When I moved to Canada, part of the terms of my PR was if I was convicted of a crime and sentenced to more than 5 (?) years in the nick, I’d be deported after release.

There’s a few cases in Canada where judges have specifically applied sentences of 5 years less one day (a large under sentencing in some cases) to avoid imposing the additional punishment of deportation. They were big news a few years back, but I can’t be arsed looking for them now.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2020, 09:12:40 PM »
The logic is that people from other countries are here on the understanding that they'll abide by the rules. So easy is this concept to grasp, most people don't need it spelling out to them. Even when I'm on holiday, I generally assume that things which are illegal in my country (waving axes about on the high street, touching up children) will probably be illegal in theirs as well. Because I also assume said country wouldn't want me on state benefits, I also tend to work on the assumption that they wouldn't be happy feeding and clothing me in prison either. Neither of these things are mine by right, they are luxuries granted at the discretion of the state.
lol where are you going to send all your home-grown criminals and spongers then

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2020, 09:17:11 PM »
Also you have to consider too what country is going to take back a crim. who can't get a job there, and be a burden of society? There has to be some feeling of kicking back...

They surely just won't say yeah, let's have these useless people and feed them and give them benefits....

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2020, 09:21:22 PM »
Also you have to consider too what country is going to take back a crim. who can't get a job there, and be a burden of society? There has to be some feeling of kicking back...

They surely just won't say yeah, let's have these useless people and feed them and give them benefits....
quick, kill all the old and disabled people too

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2020, 09:27:29 PM »
quick, kill all the old and disabled people too
Let's have a Quietus!

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2020, 09:47:17 PM »
Also you have to consider too what country is going to take back a crim. who can't get a job there, and be a burden of society? There has to be some feeling of kicking back...

They surely just won't say yeah, let's have these useless people and feed them and give them benefits....

I don't think the conviction would show up in the same way as a local police check would.

"I came back, because... er, I was homesick"


Zetetic

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2020, 08:59:25 AM »
lol where are you going to send all your home-grown criminals and spongers then
Wales, it turns out. Gotta keep building prisons somewhere and it turns out you have to keep building them in Wales, so you've got somewhere to put the English people.

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2020, 09:31:21 AM »
Come on man, Wales is punishment enough - no need to lock the poor buggers up as well

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2020, 10:08:47 AM »
Shamima Begum anyone?

UK gov has acted wrongly by removing her British Citizenship irrespective of what you think of her and what's she's done and whether she could get Bangladeshi citizenship or not.

They have broken International Law by making her stateless because she has no other citizenship right now and as it stands that's all that should be considered from a legal perspective.

Boo hoo.. What would you do with her? Bring her back, all expenses paid, new identity etc..? Her parents should be deported too.



icehaven

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 10:28:22 AM »
In some cases if you agree to sign the deportation papers (i.e. go willingly) you can get some time knocked off your sentence too (one of the blokes I was working with last year did this, got about 6 months off a 3 year sentence). Obviously this is of very little use if you haven't lived there in decades or are at risk of coming to harm or whatever. Odds are you're going to be deported anyway, it just saves the expense, time and hassle of forcing it.

A while back there was a bloke in my reading group who was in his late 30s and had moved to the UK from Slovakia when he was about 20, so he'd been here nearly half his life, and he was only doing a short sentence (about 2 years I think, so one year in prison), and he was due to be deported when he was released. He knew no one over there, had never been back since moving, his English was now better than his Slovakian, and he was understandably very worried about what he was going to do. He was due to be released on a Friday and would have been taken straight to Gatwick detention centre, then put on a plane the next day. No idea what happened to him but I can't imagine it ended very well.

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 11:09:33 AM »
They're deporting people with children here because obviously it's better that the child is raised here by a single parent, sees their father once a year, and the British state pays the cost of raising them. Or maybe they think it's proportional to deport a child to a country they've never visited because one parent's a criminal.

In an ideal world, prisons would rehabilitate people and produce useful members of society who would return to their families, work, and contribute. In reality they produce radicalised terrorists and criminals worse than when they went in, because the Tories think the function of prison is to abuse and brutalise. So from that point of view, deportation is rational.

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2020, 11:57:56 AM »
Boo hoo.. What would you do with her? Bring her back, all expenses paid, new identity etc..? Her parents should be deported too.

I'm not saying anything other than the government has acted wrongly.

Sin Agog

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2020, 01:05:45 PM »
Even when I'm on holiday, I generally assume that things which are illegal in my country (waving axes about on the high street, touching up children) will probably be illegal in theirs as well.

I'm pretty sure you must know this already, but just in case you don't- there is the teensiest bit of difference to not committing a crime during your 5 days in Málaga and living in a country for several decades, setting up roots and letting your heart call it home, only to be wrenched back to the place you went to great lengths to leave because of a single mistake (that is assuming the 100% success rate of the legal system).  You, more than anyone else on this site, have a tendency to take things to an empirical place which totally disregards the fact that different ethnicities from different social strata live in entirely different universes to you and I.  This deportation law is solely an excuse to thin the herd a little with the backing of nuance-free armchair executioners.

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 01:24:48 PM »
a single mistake

get back in your box

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51497358
Quote
Mr Crawford was convicted 10 times for a total of 22 offences

Shit Good Nose

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2020, 01:35:15 PM »
I'm on the fence with the broader issue of deportation of "proper foreign criminals" (like a Russian people trafficker based in the UK, for obvious example), but I've seen interviews with three people who were among those deported to Jamaica and...well, they're fucking British.  English even - London and Northern accents.  One of them even said his ancestry is South African and he has no family or friends in any part of the Caribbean.  So what's the deal there? 

Sin Agog

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Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2020, 01:41:56 PM »
get back in your box

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51497358

What's it to you what happens to Mr. Crawford?  Him being kicked out of England won't stop you being a louse who thinks he's a Soprano but is actually a rosacea-faced goose egg who couldn't get a rise out of a yeast factory because you're just too mild-mannered.

Re: Deporting people from abroad convicted of crimes - where is the logic?
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2020, 01:42:27 PM »
i appreciate this was very embarassing for you, you didn't need to get so triggered though

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