You Are Forgiven...?

[SteK]

Going to see The Who at the 3 Arena in Dubs, got me thinking about Townshend being on the sex offender register etc, can you forgive?

That case was bit Meh, but Chris Langham, who I always held in high esteem, that was different, when he got done, I couldn't watch any of his stuff, listen to his voice, anything. But over time I've started to rewatch The Thick of It, and People Like Us, which is pure genius. And I don't feel bad about it. He is forgiven, which I'm not sure I like.

So, is it time, the great healer etc, or is it differentiating the comedy from the person?

[Shit Good Nose]

I don't know about "forgiven", but ever since someone (and I'm pretty sure it was someone on here) told me that several of the Italian renaissance artists basically raped their (mostly underage) students and assistants when I was swirling Woody Allen's shenanigans around in my head, I've been able to completely detach a person from their art, ergo I still love Woody's films (well, the early funny ones at least), I still love People Like Us, I still think Roman Polanski has made several bona fide masterpieces, and I still like The Who.  But I wouldn't ever say I've forgiven them for what they've done (or not done, or whatever).

Fortunately, I've never been a fan of Gary Glitter's music,  Jim'll's TV shows or Fred West's construction work.

[SteK]

I don't know about "forgiven", but ever since someone (and I'm pretty sure it was someone on here) told me that several of the Italian renaissance artists basically raped their (mostly underage) students and assistants when I was swirling Woody Allen's shenanigans around in my head, I've been able to completely detach a person from their art, ergo I still love Woody's films (well, the early funny ones at least), I still love People Like Us, I still think Roman Polanski has made several bona fide masterpieces, and I still like The Who.  But I wouldn't ever say I've forgiven them for what they've done (or not done, or whatever).

Fortunately, I've never been a fan of Gary Glitter's music,  Jim'll's TV shows or Fred West's construction work.

Good post.

The You Are Forgiven is a reference to The Who's 'A Quick one While He's Away', ur right it's not so much forgiven, it's tolerated, or turning a blind eye, hard to see where the line is..

Nelson Mandela sanctioned bombings of public places so no one is innocent, none of us.

[idunnosomename]

Townshend was only done for accessing child porn online, right? and while it probably wasn't for just "research" it still was related to his childhood abuse and he's not a relentless dirty bollocks like Glitter.

Still though, proper fucking fascists like Ezra Pound, or racists like Varg Vikernes of Mayhem/Burzum or the lads in Malevolent Creation. it's tough. T.S. Eliot was a fucking cunt too of course

Langham also had serious mental health problems. I really loved his comedy work in the early 00s and shocked to see his fall. But I think if someone serves their sentence and tries to go on the straight and narrow afterwards there's always room for redemption. though some crimes deserve a lifetime of repentance.

[Shit Good Nose]

Langham also had serious mental health problems.

Spike Milligan once said that Langham was the only person he ever met that made him feel normal, which says a LOT about Langham's mental state.  Not that that excuses anything he did, but it strongly shows, if not outright proves, that he's had issues for a very long time.

[SteK]

Townshend was only done for accessing child porn online, right? and while it probably wasn't for just "research" it still was related to his childhood abuse and he's not a relentless dirty bollocks like Glitter.

Still though, proper fucking fascists like Ezra Pound, or racists like Varg Vikernes of Mayhem/Burzum or the lads in Malevolent Creation. it's tough. T.S. Eliot was a fucking cunt too of course

Langham also had serious mental health problems. I really loved his comedy work in the early 00s and shocked to see his fall. But I think if someone serves their sentence and tries to go on the straight and narrow afterwards there's always room for redemption. though some crimes deserve a lifetime of repentance.

Townsend paid for access to child porn but none was found on his various computers, tho it was 2002 so maybe the police hadn't the skills to find it back then.

He claimed to have done to show UK banks where allowing folks to pay for such access, which is where I'm a bit unsure. Why child porn? Still meh...

Chris Langham for me was different, but like you say, everyone deserves a change to redeem themselves and while it's a bitter pill, I think it's the right thing to do.

[SteK]

Spike Milligan once said that Langham was the only person he ever met that made him feel normal, which says a LOT about Langham's mental state.  Not that that excuses anything he did, but it strongly shows, if not outright proves, that he's had issues for a very long time.

Milligan and Langham in one of Q's saying they got 'Owl', dressed in flat caps, crouched down with jumpers pulled over their knees was the funniest thing I ever saw, me and my bro were crying laughing. Never been able to find to and I've downloaded everything Milligan..

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Some art contains more of the artist than others. I don't feel particularly conflicted watching Langham episodes of TTOI for example as I can separate the performance from the individual. Just like knowing Tony Robinson is a drab centrist establishment mouthpiece doesn't make Baldrick anymore or less watchable.

[rack and peanut]

For me personally it depends on whether it's a solo work or an ensemble. E.g. a stand up comedian who writes and performs all their own work and turns out to be a wrong'un is fair game for dismissal, but in something like a sitcom there are actors, directors and writers among others whose work shouldn't be unfairly dismissed because of one bad egg. 

[Wonderful Butternut]

Townsend paid for access to child porn but none was found on his various computers, tho it was 2002 so maybe the police hadn't the skills to find it back then.

He claimed to have done to show UK banks where allowing folks to pay for such access, which is where I'm a bit unsure. Why child porn? Still meh...

Apparently he was abused as a child himself and that's why he did it. To highlight that banks didn't stop people from using their debit and credit cards to pay to see children get raped. Never met the guy, so I haven't a clue if it's true, or if he just did a good enough job deleting the kiddie porn that they couldn't find it.

[idunnosomename]

of course police had the resources to read hard drives, including deleted sectors, in the early 00s. I think he genuinely was just fascinated by abuse images due to his past. it's still a crime, but morally I'm not that bothered by it

that said everyone in the who was a insufferable cunt

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I loved lostprophets. Loved their music once I discovered it (through Need for Speed Underground as a matter of fact). Loved their style, loved their sound, loved them being from Wales. I can't listen to them anymore. I can't listen to that nasty fuck singing. I haven't played any of their songs since he was convicted.

[Stoneage Dinosaurs]

of course police had the resources to read hard drives, including deleted sectors, in the early 00s. I think he genuinely was just fascinated by abuse images due to his past. it's still a crime, but morally I'm not that bothered by it

that said everyone in the who was a insufferable cunt

:( what did Entwhistle do?

[Wonderful Butternut]

I loved lostprophets. Loved their music once I discovered it (through Need for Speed Underground as a matter of fact). Loved their style, loved their sound, loved them being from Wales. I can't listen to them anymore. I can't listen to that nasty fuck singing. I haven't played any of their songs since he was convicted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWyUREKjGX0

Sorry, I couldn't not post it. One for the "knowing what we now know" file. The kids in the vid were probably too old for that toddler fucker though.

EDIT: Someone turned the comments off since the last time I looked at that.

[Wonderful Butternut]

of course police had the resources to read hard drives, including deleted sectors, in the early 00s.

I was thinking in terms of a 35x overwrite of the deleted sectors, but I'm not sure when software that could do that became easily availble.

[Sebastian Cobb]

I was thinking in terms of a 35x overwrite of the deleted sectors, but I'm not sure when software that could do that became easily availble.

Does that actually exist? The 35x thing is kind of bunk.
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/secure_del.html

In the time since this paper was published, some people have treated the 35-pass overwrite technique described in it more as a kind of voodoo incantation to banish evil spirits than the result of a technical analysis of drive encoding techniques. As a result, they advocate applying the voodoo to PRML and EPRML drives even though it will have no more effect than a simple scrubbing with random data. In fact performing the full 35-pass overwrite is pointless for any drive since it targets a blend of scenarios involving all types of (normally-used) encoding technology, which covers everything back to 30+-year-old MFM methods (if you don't understand that statement, re-read the paper). If you're using a drive which uses encoding technology X, you only need to perform the passes specific to X, and you never need to perform all 35 passes. For any modern PRML/EPRML drive, a few passes of random scrubbing is the best you can do. As the paper says, "A good scrubbing with random data will do about as well as can be expected". This was true in 1996, and is still true now.

Looking at this from the other point of view, with the ever-increasing data density on disk platters and a corresponding reduction in feature size and use of exotic techniques to record data on the medium, it's unlikely that anything can be recovered from any recent drive except perhaps a single level via basic error-cancelling techniques. In particular the drives in use at the time that this paper was originally written are long since extinct, so the methods that applied specifically to the older, lower-density technology don't apply any more. Conversely, with modern high-density drives, even if you've got 10KB of sensitive data on a drive and can't erase it with 100% certainty, the chances of an adversary being able to find the erased traces of that 10KB in 200GB of other erased traces are close to zero.

Another point that a number of readers seem to have missed is that this paper doesn't present a data-recovery solution but a data-deletion solution. In other words it points out in its problem statement that there is a potential risk, and then the body of the paper explores the means of mitigating that risk.

[idunnosomename]

:( what did Entwhistle do?

i always thought entwistle was the best. but townshend was a real cunt about him in Rolling Stone last year

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/who-new-album-new-tour-townshend-daltrey-913902/

"It's not going to make Who fans very happy, but thank God they're gone."

Because?

"Because they were fucking difficult to play with. They never, ever managed to create bands for themselves. I think my musical discipline, my musical efficiency as a rhythm player, held the band together."

Townshend took on his bass player first. "John's bass sound was like a Messiaen organ," he says, waving his angular limbs. "Every note, every harmonic in the sky. When he passed away and I did the first few shows without him, with Pino [Palladino] on bass, he was playing without all that stuff.... I said, 'Wow, I have a job.' "

i agree Moon was a bad band member and a cunt but fucking hell i though that was a bit nasty.

[pigamus]

I don't think I could watch Langham in stuff now. Help! I'd love to see again, but.... nah, it would just depress me I think.

[idunnosomename]

i fucking loved Help but it just seemed to launch Whitehouse doing rubber face shit and, predictably, got totally forgotten about after Langham went down

[Shit Good Nose]

but fucking hell i though that was a bit nasty.

To me that just sounds like a guitarist 1) who is jealous of a bassist that is a better musician technically, 2) wants a simple and unfussy foundation to play over, and 3) was driven up the wall by trying to battle with someone whose job should just be to drive the band (also cf. Robert Fripp and David Cross [ostensibly King Crimson's lead players from late 1972 to 1974] being overwhelmed on stage by their rhythm section of John Wetton and Bill Bruford).

Don't get me wrong - Pino Palladino is absolutely no slouch on the bass, but he is something of a journeyman session musician and as such customises his playing, style and tone to whatever he is paid to do.


Anyway, sorry - going a bit off topic there.

[Urinal Cake]

I think you have to wait till they die hopefully in tragic circumstances before you forgive them. If you're a sports fans than you can also pretend they never actually did anything wrong e.g Kobe.

[SteK]

Re Entwhistle vs Townshend...

The Ox was technically the better, but let's face it, zero charisma....

Townshend is a decent guitarist, but no Hendrix, but he has a good sound and more important - fuckin charisma, loads of it, his stage moves are epic, none better....

[Captain Z]

Only came in here because I misread the title as "are you foreign". Pleased to see it's just another harmless peodo thread.

[Cerys]

I loved lostprophets. Loved their music once I discovered it (through Need for Speed Underground as a matter of fact). Loved their style, loved their sound, loved them being from Wales. I can't listen to them anymore. I can't listen to that nasty fuck singing. I haven't played any of their songs since he was convicted.

I still listen to Last Train Home.  I think if he was a solo artist I probably wouldn't, but I really love that song and I refuse to let the bastard ruin it for me.

[solidified gruel merchant]

I think The Lost Prophets has to be way beyond the pale now. See how people get cancelled for racist language and stuff? This guy raped babies who would've been screaming in pain. If you can happily listen to this vermin's work now then you need to take yourself away from a position of moralising about anything.

[Dex Sawash]

To me that just sounds like a guitarist 1) who is jealous of a bassist that is a better musician technically, 2) wants a simple and unfussy foundation to play over, and 3) was driven up the wall by trying to battle with someone whose job should just be to drive the band (also cf. Robert Fripp and David Cross [ostensibly King Crimson's lead players from late 1972 to 1974] being overwhelmed on stage by their rhythm section of John Wetton and Bill Bruford).

Don't get me wrong - Pino Palladino is absolutely no slouch on the bass, but he is something of a journeyman session musician and as such customises his playing, style and tone to whatever he is paid to do.


Anyway, sorry - going a bit off topic there.

Another Pino thread

[ajsmith2]

Not quite the same thing but related: I'm kind of interested in the double standard with how Rolf Harris's legacy has been treated post discovery of his crimes compared to others. He had a huge canon of entertainment work across several mediums: music TV, art etc:  all pretty much considered beyond the pale and untouchable now. And yet compare that to the legacies of Michael Jackson, or Roman Polanski, or Phil Spector etc etc whose respective canons remain mostly still acceptable, just with an 'it's complicated' qualifier stuck on? Is the difference that all of Rolf's work was framed and received as entertainment, and not art, whereas Jacko Roman et are seen as artists on a different level, and thus their work is allowed to be received with nuance and considered outwith the individual who created it? Was everything Rolf put out too directly tied to his persona to not be infected by his sex criminal stank? Then again Jacko's personality was very closely identified with his work. Is it that as primarily entertainment, all of Rolf's work is designed to be received as uncomplicated happy fun times, whereas MJ, Polanski, Spector etc deal with a spectrum of emotions and themes in their work, and are allowed to be more shady as creators? I think that could be closer to the crux.

Another interesting comparison is Gary Glitter: his work is reviled in the UK where he had been known as a huge uncomplex celebrity over several decades. In the US, where he was a one hit wonder (but that one hit was on a massive scale, with the 'every living soul knows it' perennial sports anthem 'Rock And Roll Pt 2') criticism of the continued use of his solitary stateside mega hit is generally met with a huge shrug as he didn't register as a personality over there. The song transcends the man in that context.

[Thomas]

I think the wealth and greed of the estate behind the Dodgy Individual has a massive hand in the legacy. MJ's posthumous image must subsist on a tireless stream of PR to keep the dead wrong 'un profitable. The general public view of a celebrity is informed by these careful machinations - I imagine a lot of work goes into maintaining the vague 'it's complicated' tag as a viable disclaimer, so that the next repackaged boxset still turns a profit.

Is there such a financial stake in Rolf's back catalogue as there is in MJ's?

That Gary Glitter song was in a US film that just made a billion dollars, and the US sport it's associated with is similarly a playground for rich boys.

Roman Polanski, meanwhile, and the 'leave him be' petitions signed by fellow artists and actors? I don't know, some of those arty intellectuals are just creepy. There's a glamourisation of abuse by 'tortured artists'. If they could speak freely, I'm sure a few of them would romanticise Polanski's actions, never mind overlook or forgive them. Remember arty dudebro Tarantino recently talking back his own 'cavalier remarks'.

[machotrouts]

I will never prostrate myself for heterosexual approval. Forgiveness granted by scum to higher level beings is unwanted and invalid. I will haunt you spectrally

[Thomas]

I will haunt you Spectorally