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Joaquin stressing out farmers

Started by bgmnts, February 25, 2020, 09:31:04 PM

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bgmnts

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/feb/25/celebrities-promoting-veganism-damages-farmers-mental-health-says-nfu-river-phoenix

Good on you Joaquin lad, only good news i've read in weeks.

Odd how torturing and slaughtering animals en masse doesn't stress them out but Joaquin Phoenix does. I know humanity probably will never do what needs in order to retain what remains of the earth and if it does it'll never be in my lifetime but these tiny little things give me a glimmer of hope.

Zetetic

At some point in the last few months Points West had a segment on the experience of farmers sending their animals to slaughter. It was quite an interesting and human, and jarred horribly with the rest of the programme.

That's only vaguely relevant, and not at all useful, but it's got it out my head anyway.

idunnosomename

oh shut up person who pretends to be someone else

PlanktonSideburns

chin up farmers, youle all be dangling from a rope in your shed once the EU bunts dries up and you realise your entire industry was basically the truman show

Dewt


Pingers

People who nearly all vote for the party of the free market not keen on the free market.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Pingers on February 25, 2020, 09:46:23 PM
People who nearly all vote for the party of the free market not keen on the free market.

It's not free when luvvies tell people what to buy!

Not when they're not being paid to by corporations.


Uncle TechTip


peanutbutter

Farmers generally don't choose to be farmers, they grow up in that environment and endure an absolute fuckton of societal pressure from a very young age to conform to it. Most the kids I knew who were sons of farmers were being forced to spend big chunks of their free time helping out on the farm from as soon as they were able to walk and follow basic instructions, by the time they were 12 they knew they had close to no say in their futures.

The industry absolutely has to change, and there needs to be measures to try and stop younger generations from slipping into this family business bullshit but I've far more sympathy for the plight of some cunt farmers than an animal that exists solely to be farmed and killed. It's a fucking horrible lifestyle and the profit margins are an absolute joke for most farmers relative to how much they've to give it, so much of it is so totally out of your control too.

Kill all the cows, that's my solution. Big fucking methane monsters, force the farmers into trying something new or bailing.



Anyways, I haven't read the article so I'm sure this'll be a bit tone deaf.

bgmnts

Quote from: peanutbutter on February 25, 2020, 11:21:40 PM
I've far more sympathy for the plight of some cunt farmers than an animal that exists solely to be farmed and killed.

Ah see, I don't.

Ray Travez

That's not what it exists for- that's what some human has decided it exists for.

Ray Travez

Minette Batters was in that documentary with George Monbiot, Apocalypse Cow. At one point she says something I found quite weird; Monbiot says he doesn't consume any of her products ie. livestock, and she says, "Shame on you." I found that very odd. There's no shame in choosing to eat beans surely, but one could argue that there's a shame in keeping animals in abysmal conditions before eventually killing them, and perhaps even more shame in becoming a spokesperson for an industry that relies on this kind of barbarism.

chveik


Urinal Cake

There's always been a lot of romance/idealism/respect etc given towards farming even on the left. Even though farmers are just like any other business owner and usually are exploitative fucks towards people, animals and the environment. They have very good PR.

peanutbutter

Quote from: Ray Travez on February 25, 2020, 11:47:09 PM
That's not what it exists for- that's what some human has decided it exists for.
Yep, and now we should decide they're not worth it with what they cost to the environment. Secondary ethical reasons are fine too but it's about ending the perpetual suffering, not transforming the existences of the ones which are already here, they're such absolutely huge resource drains as it stands in terms of how much land they take up and whats required to get them through winter; there's far better things that can be done with that land, for humans and the earth and other animals... like nothing.


It's a bit baffling there isn't more of a focus on pulling farmers away to other things in the form of grants and shit, should be overwhelmingly skewed towards that kind of thing. I get the impression most grants based stuff in the EU was (and still are) more focused on shifting things towards larger farmers than anything else though. Is there possibly something about EU elections that disproportionately favours rural areas in a big way or something (e.g. almost being a party within the EU of MEPs elected purely on issues relating to farmers interests or some shit)

Quote from: Urinal Cake on February 26, 2020, 12:06:12 AM
There's always been a lot of romance/idealism/respect etc given towards farming even on the left. Even though farmers are just like any other business owner and usually are exploitative fucks towards people, animals and the environment. They have very good PR.
It applies towards small businesses in general really, people fucking love small businesses but McDonalds are far less likely to exploit the life outta some 16 year old who doesn't know any better than a random chipper on the street is.

Small family businesses and the kind of bullshit they land in on their kids really gets to me. There was a kid in my school who was given no choice, he was gonna be a butcher, stepping into the shoes his dad struggled to fill over my lifetime as supermarkets gradually erased his profit margins in the hope that he can struggle too and add an extra generation of guilt onto his kid when it comes time to force them into being a struggling butcher too.

I think part of the "respect" is just a kind of awkward guilt or something... an awareness you didn't have to deal with this bullshit and maybe a sense that you wouldn't be able to, except you would, cos you'd've had no choice.

dr_christian_troy

He narrated the rather grueling Earthlings documentary too. It's difficult to watch but it really made me appreciate my steak afterwards

Urinal Cake

Quote from: peanutbutter on February 26, 2020, 01:07:10 AM
It applies towards small businesses in general really, people fucking love small businesses but McDonalds are far less likely to exploit the life outta some 16 year old who doesn't know any better than a random chipper on the street is.

Small family businesses and the kind of bullshit they land in on their kids really gets to me. There was a kid in my school who was given no choice, he was gonna be a butcher, stepping into the shoes his dad struggled to fill over my lifetime as supermarkets gradually erased his profit margins in the hope that he can struggle too and add an extra generation of guilt onto his kid when it comes time to force them into being a struggling butcher too.

I think part of the "respect" is just a kind of awkward guilt or something... an awareness you didn't have to deal with this bullshit and maybe a sense that you wouldn't be able to, except you would, cos you'd've had no choice.
In Australia there's no real such love. If a family business goes out of business people will blame incompetence. I think the idea of losing 'family land' (which is ironic in Australia) is probably a huge factor.

Fambo Number Mive

The UK's diet needs to move away from items that have to be flown in from other countries towards items we can grow locally in order to reduce the issues of climate change. Do we need to look at nationalizing the food industry (especially the supermarkets) to do this? Farmers will have a big part to play in this and the government needs to be leading a shift towards a more plan-based diet, which should include ensuring that farmers are able to maintain a decent living from growing fruit, vegetables and crops, which will help farmers move away from meat supply.

Basically in my view the whole food industry needs drastic reform. Such a basic part of life which can have a huge impact on the environment should not be left to the market.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on February 26, 2020, 08:23:38 AM
The UK's diet needs to move away from items that have to be flown in from other countries towards items we can grow locally in order to reduce the issues of climate change. Do we need to look at nationalizing the food industry (especially the supermarkets) to do this? Farmers will have a big part to play in this and the government needs to be leading a shift towards a more plan-based diet, which should include ensuring that farmers are able to maintain a decent living from growing fruit, vegetables and crops, which will help farmers move away from meat supply.

Basically in my view the whole food industry needs drastic reform. Such a basic part of life which can have a huge impact on the environment should not be left to the market.

There are ways to reform the food industry without consigning us to the bland diets your rule making would result in. We can grow exotic fruits hydroponically, we just need a supply of cheap clean energy.

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on February 26, 2020, 08:23:38 AM
The UK's diet needs to move away from items that have to be flown in from other countries towards items we can grow locally in order to reduce the issues of climate change. Do we need to look at nationalizing the food industry (especially the supermarkets) to do this? Farmers will have a big part to play in this and the government needs to be leading a shift towards a more plan-based diet, which should include ensuring that farmers are able to maintain a decent living from growing fruit, vegetables and crops, which will help farmers move away from meat supply.

Basically in my view the whole food industry needs drastic reform. Such a basic part of life which can have a huge impact on the environment should not be left to the market.

In my view the world you envision sounds like a load of shite.

Buelligan

What does the current set-up sound like to you, or do you block your ears?

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on February 26, 2020, 08:32:47 AM
There are ways to reform the food industry without consigning us to the bland diets your rule making would result in. We can grow exotic fruits hydroponically, we just need a supply of cheap clean energy.

Why is a star fruit "better" than a strawberry?  Surely, "exotic fruits" are only exotic because they're uncommon in a particular environment.  If you start mass producing them artificially, not only will they become bland if they're artificially grown[nb]Consider the supermarket tomato, the supermarket strawberry[/nb], they will be common and therefore no more exotic, exciting or interesting, than any other foodstuff.

Quote from: peanutbutter on February 25, 2020, 11:21:40 PM
Farmers generally don't choose to be farmers, they grow up in that environment and endure an absolute fuckton of societal pressure from a very young age to conform to it. Most the kids I knew who were sons of farmers were being forced to spend big chunks of their free time helping out on the farm from as soon as they were able to walk and follow basic instructions, by the time they were 12 they knew they had close to no say in their futures.

The industry absolutely has to change, and there needs to be measures to try and stop younger generations from slipping into this family business bullshit but I've far more sympathy for the plight of some cunt farmers than an animal that exists solely to be farmed and killed. It's a fucking horrible lifestyle and the profit margins are an absolute joke for most farmers relative to how much they've to give it, so much of it is so totally out of your control too.

Kill all the cows, that's my solution. Big fucking methane monsters, force the farmers into trying something new or bailing.



Anyways, I haven't read the article so I'm sure this'll be a bit tone deaf.

Quote from: peanutbutter on February 26, 2020, 01:07:10 AM
Yep, and now we should decide they're not worth it with what they cost to the environment. Secondary ethical reasons are fine too but it's about ending the perpetual suffering, not transforming the existences of the ones which are already here, they're such absolutely huge resource drains as it stands in terms of how much land they take up and whats required to get them through winter; there's far better things that can be done with that land, for humans and the earth and other animals... like nothing.


It's a bit baffling there isn't more of a focus on pulling farmers away to other things in the form of grants and shit, should be overwhelmingly skewed towards that kind of thing. I get the impression most grants based stuff in the EU was (and still are) more focused on shifting things towards larger farmers than anything else though. Is there possibly something about EU elections that disproportionately favours rural areas in a big way or something (e.g. almost being a party within the EU of MEPs elected purely on issues relating to farmers interests or some shit)
It applies towards small businesses in general really, people fucking love small businesses but McDonalds are far less likely to exploit the life outta some 16 year old who doesn't know any better than a random chipper on the street is.

Small family businesses and the kind of bullshit they land in on their kids really gets to me. There was a kid in my school who was given no choice, he was gonna be a butcher, stepping into the shoes his dad struggled to fill over my lifetime as supermarkets gradually erased his profit margins in the hope that he can struggle too and add an extra generation of guilt onto his kid when it comes time to force them into being a struggling butcher too.

I think part of the "respect" is just a kind of awkward guilt or something... an awareness you didn't have to deal with this bullshit and maybe a sense that you wouldn't be able to, except you would, cos you'd've had no choice.

What's coming across here, to me anyway, is that you feel huge sympathy for, you feel emotional about, the people, especially the younger ones, their suffering.  Very emotional.  No parallel concerns for the animals, who have even less control over the situation, this seems odd. 

Cruelty, exploitation, kindness, we're all victims, all thankful recipients.  It's unrealistic to expect a culture which uses one group under its power without compassion to behave with empathy towards another.  If we seek these qualities, we must practice them.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Buelligan on February 26, 2020, 08:56:30 AM
What does the current set-up sound like to you, or do you block your ears?

Why is a star fruit "better" than a strawberry?  Surely, "exotic fruits" are only exotic because they're uncommon in a particular environment.  If you start mass producing them artificially, not only will they become bland if they're artificially grown[nb]Consider the supermarket tomato, the supermarket strawberry[/nb], they will be common and therefore no more exotic, exciting or interesting, than any other foodstuff.



Sorry Should've said 'imported fruits and vegetables we consider staples' rather than 'exotic'. Strawberries are exactly the sort of fruit we don't really need, only useful in jams and puddings which are about treats and not really relevant to food that keeps people from being hungry.

Buelligan

Ayayayyy, you were complaining about blandness.  Blandness.  Don't go all worthy on me now, heheh.

Sin Agog

I agree with Joaquin and I am from Planet Vegon too, but we've both had a head-start by being born to woo-woo hippies.  Most of your regular folk have to endure a far more complicated reprogramming procedure.

Surprised what that Vegin Society bloke says about there still only being 600k veguns in this country.  Are people signing up and dropping out at the same rate?  Surely that figure must be gradually on the rise.  We should advertise our powers more, like levitation and the ability to sing the brown note.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Sin Agog on February 26, 2020, 09:55:18 AM
I agree with Joaquin and I am from Planet Vegon too, but we've both had a head-start by being born to woo-woo hippies.  Most of your regular folk have to endure a far more complicated reprogramming procedure.

Surprised what that Vegin Society bloke says about there still only being 600k veguns in this country.  Are people signing up and dropping out at the same rate?  Surely that figure must be gradually on the rise.  We should advertise our powers more, like levitation and the ability to sing the brown note.
It's probably the case that there's loads of people that occupy the space of mostly-but-technically-not-vegan.

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on February 26, 2020, 08:23:38 AM
The UK's diet needs to move away from items that have to be flown in from other countries towards items we can grow locally in order to reduce the issues of climate change.

No it doesn't. Not unless we want blander and (more importantly) less nutritious diets or we're prepared to massively up the carbon footprint of our farms to recreate the conditions that our imported produce need to grow.

Food miles don't necessarily translate into a higher carbon footprint either. Mass produced food shipped in bulk on ferries and lorries to supermarkets can have a much lower carbon footprint than local produce at a farmer's market, which in turn can have a lower carbon footprint than strawberries you've picked yourself at a farm simply due to economies of scale.

Quote from: Sin Agog on February 26, 2020, 09:55:18 AM
I agree with Joaquin and I am from Planet Vegon too, but we've both had a head-start by being born to woo-woo hippies.  Most of your regular folk have to endure a far more complicated reprogramming procedure.

Surprised what that Vegin Society bloke says about there still only being 600k veguns in this country.  Are people signing up and dropping out at the same rate?  Surely that figure must be gradually on the rise.  We should advertise our powers more, like levitation and the ability to sing the brown note.

Probably. It can be quite hard to maintain a vegan diet. My sister has been "vegan" at least five times, giving up due to a combination of a lack of time/money/availability. She's currently not vegan.

Buelligan

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on February 26, 2020, 11:02:30 AM
No it doesn't. Not unless we want blander and (more importantly) less nutritious diets or we're prepared to massively up the carbon footprint of our farms to recreate the conditions that our imported produce need to grow.

The issue with carbon footprints, as I understand it anyway, is not who is responsible but whether they happen on this planet at all.  Food production will have one, where that occurs is irrelevant (apart from the transport issues you mentioned and the methods used to produce it).

dissolute ocelot

Stuff you grow in your back garden always tastes better. Maybe we need to be like in places where everybody keeps a pig or a few chickens and feeds it scraps.

Sony Walkman Prophecies

I'm delighted the rise in ethical consciousness stresses out farmers. I hope they're sweating in their beds worrying about their mortgages and the future of their industry as a whole. Good.