Author Topic: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]  (Read 8276 times)

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2020, 07:46:28 PM »
I like him.

Don't really think he's right wing to be honest, just probably a bit tired of certain elements of the left. I think he has some underlying conservative beliefs on the nature of humanity - someone mentioned his ComComPod episode where he said he's very sceptical about the idea of linear human progress, and leans more towards believing that history is more cyclical, and humanity imperfectible - but I suspect not much more than that. He probably prefers to look at those underlying beliefs that lead people to a particular political persuasion and examine them, rather than surface-level politics or daily political hullabaloo, which is the stuff he prefers to mock. As usual when that's the case, it's easy to think he's taking a right wing position or a centrist position or whatever, when it's maybe not as clear cut as that. A bit like how in recent years a lot of conservatives in the US seem to have adopted Norm Macdonald as one of their own, when he's always said he's broadly apolitical.

Haven't seen anything personally that would lead me to believe he's been adopting any position as a cleanly calculated move; not anymore than your average comedian and writer has to anyway.

Famous Mortimer

  • War - it's fantastic!
    • International Syndicate of Cult Film Critics
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2020, 08:31:18 PM »
I like him.

Don't really think he's right wing to be honest, just probably a bit tired of certain elements of the left. I think he has some underlying conservative beliefs on the nature of humanity - someone mentioned his ComComPod episode where he said he's very sceptical about the idea of linear human progress, and leans more towards believing that history is more cyclical, and humanity imperfectible - but I suspect not much more than that. He probably prefers to look at those underlying beliefs that lead people to a particular political persuasion and examine them, rather than surface-level politics or daily political hullabaloo, which is the stuff he prefers to mock. As usual when that's the case, it's easy to think he's taking a right wing position or a centrist position or whatever, when it's maybe not as clear cut as that.
From posts on the previous two pages, he seems to be going a little bit further than being tired of certain elements of the left.

A bit like how in recent years a lot of conservatives in the US seem to have adopted Norm Macdonald as one of their own, when he's always said he's broadly apolitical.
If it's so easy for you to get adopted by the conservatives, and you aren't one yourself, I think it would be in that person's interests to look at the things they say that allow that inference to be drawn. I'm fairly certain Norm isn't coming right out and saying he's on the right because he doesn't want to alienate the majority of his fanbase. But I could be wrong.

Haven't seen anything personally that would lead me to believe he's been adopting any position as a cleanly calculated move; not anymore than your average comedian and writer has to anyway.
I don't think it's calculated. I think it's his real opinion. But I'm not one of those people who thinks expressing an honestly held awful opinion absolves you of criticism for that opinion. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at (if so, sorry).

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2020, 09:14:40 PM »
From posts on the previous two pages, he seems to be going a little bit further than being tired of certain elements of the left.
What I was saying, just for clarification, was that my reading of him was that when he's joking/mocking those elements, he's not really doing so from a right wing position. When I've seen him joking about certain things, I think he's doing so more because he disagrees or even has disdain for the attitude, logic or maybe even just the presentation behind them. You can debate the individual jokes, comments, tweets etc.

If it's so easy for you to get adopted by the conservatives, and you aren't one yourself, I think it would be in that person's interests to look at the things they say that allow that inference to be drawn. I'm fairly certain Norm isn't coming right out and saying he's on the right because he doesn't want to alienate the majority of his fanbase. But I could be wrong.
I think there's a genuinely fascinating, and very long, discussion that could be had as to how far we can/should be responsible for how we're interpreted and the inferences that people make about us. Probably too much for this thread to be honest. I will say that I think it's especially tricky for comics/comedy writers to tred this line well because it's so easy for anybody to interpret a joke as taking all sorts of positions, and people have a tendency to be more lenient to those who they agree with and harsher to those they don't.

I don't think it's calculated. I think it's his real opinion. But I'm not one of those people who thinks expressing an honestly held awful opinion absolves you of criticism for that opinion. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at (if so, sorry).
No, I agree. I was responding to the idea that Evans is calculating or overly exaggerating his opinion, any more than a comic normally does (because comedy sort of demands you to take a position or to have 'a voice'). I'm certainly not saying he or anyone is absolved of criticism for sharing their real opinions.

Autopsy Turvey

  • Albert The Grinder vs The Hooded Terror
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2020, 09:23:42 PM »
I don't think it's calculated. I think it's his real opinion. But I'm not one of those people who thinks expressing an honestly held awful opinion absolves you of criticism for that opinion.

It might be useful to establish which of Simon Evans' sincerely held opinions can be proved to be actively awful, which are just ones you disagree with, and whether there's any difference between those things. And whether anyone with any redeeming qualities may have been pushed right of centre by the left's capitulation to fringe whack-a-loons.

king_tubby

  • You have to be realistic about these things.
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2020, 09:26:53 PM »
followed by Simon Hedges

The seal of approval right there.

Famous Mortimer

  • War - it's fantastic!
    • International Syndicate of Cult Film Critics
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2020, 10:21:19 PM »
It might be useful to establish which of Simon Evans' sincerely held opinions can be proved to be actively awful, which are just ones you disagree with, and whether there's any difference between those things. And whether anyone with any redeeming qualities may have been pushed right of centre by the left's capitulation to fringe whack-a-loons.
I would also like to establish at what point being on the right became a tribal thing mostly interested in sniping at "whack-a-loons", and whether that phrase can be exactly translated as "person who says anything I disagree with". Perhaps that might be a fun thing for you to research, while I'm digging into every opinion Evans has ever expressed, which I assume you asked me to do in good faith.

As neither I, nor anyone in this thread, really, has dismissed the entirety of Evans' life or output, merely said we disagree with his opinions, you might also like to spend some time looking into why people who identify as politically right are so quick to use a hasty generalisation in place of any sort of reasonable argument.


Mister Six

  • Ridiculously teacakes
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2020, 11:58:52 PM »
I would also like to establish at what point being on the right became a tribal thing mostly interested in sniping at "whack-a-loons"

Some time in the 1980s at least?

chveik

  • DON'T GET THAT COVID, YEAH?
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #67 on: February 29, 2020, 12:03:07 AM »
fringe whack-a-loons.

gentler, kinder politics

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #68 on: February 29, 2020, 10:33:53 AM »
The whole cynical anti wokeness reminds me of this great bit from the Kates:
https://twitter.com/getkrackinshow/status/1103580768800976896?s=19

What other comedy bits, sketches, stand-up or whatever, are there on this?

Cardenio I

  • Hasta la muerte, todo es vida
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #69 on: February 29, 2020, 11:11:04 AM »
"Maybe these sensible, ordinary people on the right are tired of being mischracterised in crude generalisations from those frothing, murderous, nutfucks on the left?"

Cardenio I

  • Hasta la muerte, todo es vida

Cardenio I

  • Hasta la muerte, todo es vida
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #71 on: February 29, 2020, 01:08:01 PM »
Tbf being a cunt online is absolutely the exclusive domain of the left.

Autopsy Turvey

  • Albert The Grinder vs The Hooded Terror
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2020, 08:22:31 PM »
I would also like to establish at what point being on the right became a tribal thing

The French Revolution? In Britain the adversarial process has been a facet of parliamentary democracy for a very long time, and tribalism by nature goes back even further, and of course is as much a part of 'being on the left' for many people.

To clarify, that's not my tribe, my tribe is that of the cripplingly centrist non-voting agnostic dyed-in-the-wool don't know. I can sympathise with a wide variety of opinions, which may lead to unfurling whatever view opposes whatever consensus I'm in. "Fringe whack-a-loons" is a little dismissive but it's just a cute phrase, denoting those bitter and hateful ideological zealots on either wing whose lives are consumed by political activist thinking.

chveik

  • DON'T GET THAT COVID, YEAH?
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2020, 08:29:43 PM »
says the man that wrote dozens of posts defending Tommy Robinson

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2020, 08:33:48 PM »
You say that but can you give an actual example of something racist that Tommy has said? 3.2.1.no? Well? Case closed. Not a racist. Stop being so emotional.

Am I doing it right?

Autopsy Turvey

  • Albert The Grinder vs The Hooded Terror
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2020, 08:48:54 PM »
You say that but can you give an actual example of something racist that Tommy has said? 3.2.1.no? Well? Case closed. Not a racist. Stop being so emotional.
Am I doing it right?

I'd never say case closed, the search goes on. However, this is definitely off-topic and non-CC, and I suspect neither of us have anything to add to the previous threads on the subject, so, eh.

Utterdrivel

  • I've finished, Mother
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2020, 09:47:14 PM »
He was also on the ill-fated Krypton Factor revamp in the mid-90s: https://youtu.be/3BNkxl-oY7I?t=1298

Christ alive! Hair!

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2020, 09:06:08 AM »
Have the left capitulated to fringe whack-a-loons or is it just easy to find left-identifying arseholes on Twitter to rage against if you are a right wing commentator?

Autopsy Turvey

  • Albert The Grinder vs The Hooded Terror
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2020, 12:58:16 PM »
Have the left capitulated to fringe whack-a-loons or is it just easy to find left-identifying arseholes on Twitter to rage against

I've spent about five minutes on twitter altogether, but I've spent far more time (25 days!) on this here forum, as well as following the pronouncements of certain opposition ministers, and can confirm that fringe whack-a-loons are not alas confined to Dorsey's Folly.

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2020, 01:16:12 PM »
[Citation needed]

Autopsy Turvey

  • Albert The Grinder vs The Hooded Terror
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2020, 01:54:26 PM »
[Citation needed]

Citation needed for bitter and hateful extreme left wing sentiments on CaB? Srsly?! As for opposition MPs, well it's a can of worms and I haven't got all day, but a recent eg is Dawn Butler claiming babies are born without a biological sex. That is a spectacularly fringe whack-a-loon position (I'm not even going to mention her "90% of giraffes are gay" howler, presumably that was a joke). More generally, Roy Hattersley here tackles the subject of Labour's march to the fringe: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/we-fought-militant-in-the-1980s-far-left-hold-now-much-worse

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2020, 01:55:31 PM »
Citation needed for bitter and hateful extreme left wing sentiments on CaB? Srsly?!

Ha didn't even give it a go.

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2020, 02:01:11 PM »
Citation needed for bitter and hateful extreme left wing sentiments on CaB? Srsly?! As for opposition MPs, well it's a can of worms and I haven't got all day, but a recent eg is Dawn Butler claiming babies are born without a biological sex. That is a spectacularly fringe whack-a-loon position (I'm not even going to mention her "90% of giraffes are gay" howler, presumably that was a joke). More generally, Roy Hattersley here tackles the subject of Labour's march to the fringe: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/we-fought-militant-in-the-1980s-far-left-hold-now-much-worse

And you accuse the left of being hysterical? Politicians mis-speaking on complex and emotive subjects is not whack-a-loon, whatever the fuck that is. Butler was pretty quick to apologise and clarify what she meant but no, the narrative is set and it is convenient for you to focus on the mistake and not the rectification.

Autopsy Turvey

  • Albert The Grinder vs The Hooded Terror
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2020, 02:31:02 PM »
And you accuse the left of being hysterical? Politicians mis-speaking on complex and emotive subjects is not whack-a-loon, whatever the fuck that is. Butler was pretty quick to apologise and clarify what she meant but no, the narrative is set and it is convenient for you to focus on the mistake and not the rectification.

I didn't hear the apology/clarification, having searched for it I could only find it in an Express article, weirdly. I agree this is a complex and emotive subject, but when she adds “I think the more people talk about trans issues, the more damage it is doing and the more hate crime it is developing which is not healthy," is that also misspeaking? Talking about trans issues is only going to result in hate crime? She then signs a pledge to expel Labour members "opposed to trans rights"? As if it's not very complex after all, just very emotive? Another of her 'clarifications' resulted in this:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/23/labour-confused-messages-women-only-spaces-transgender-rights

This whole issue affects about one percent of British people, and its elevation to the top of Labour's concerns and priorities further proves their capitulation to the, how shall we say, ideological zealots and obsessive activists on a political fringe that the vast majority of Britons want nothing to do with. Hence this "for the many not the few" slogan is a bit outdated now.

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2020, 02:39:20 PM »
Except it isn't at the top of Labour's concerns and priorities. It is just the hot topic of the moment that they keep getting asked about because of various transphobic people pushing their agenda at the moment. There was very little about it pre-election, and anything that was spoken about was magnified by people who are against trans rights.

Cardenio I

  • Hasta la muerte, todo es vida
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2020, 03:12:21 PM »
Yes, and Autopsy Turvey is the one who's bought up trans-issues here - trans rights is not fast-tracked to "the top of Labour's concerns and priorities" by "ideological zealots and obsessive activists on a political fringe". It's an issue that his been turned into a political hot potato by the culture wars bullshit, for which it serves as a convenient signifier for what side of the Great Divide you're on. Look what you've done here AT - taken Butler misspeaking as your ur-example of lefty whack-a-lunacy, then backtracked to... what, exactly? At the very least a position based less on "whoah, look how obviously wacky and fringe this opinion is" and something much more approaching a discussion of how to make policy around trans issues (albeit from a point of apparent disagreement with Butler).

Then there's this little dig : "this "for the many not the few" slogan is a bit outdated now." But the implication, that labour lost their way by becoming bogged down in identity politics, isn't supported by any polling I've seen, nor any of the voting patterns I know of, nor my lived experience of the 2019 election campaign. People didn't trust Labour on Brexit, they didn't believe their spending plans, they hated Corbyn on a personal level, and they really didn't like free wi-fi for some reason. All of this was tied up with a sense of Labour being "metropolitan" - which might have a metonymic association with "identity politics" under which broad umbrella you can find trans rights but... you're reaching a bit, aren't you?

Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2020, 03:15:17 PM »
And trans people, and every other type of person who isn't a rich, straight, white male, are part of the "many" the slogan is talking about.

Autopsy Turvey

  • Albert The Grinder vs The Hooded Terror
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2020, 04:14:34 PM »
It's an issue that his been turned into a political hot potato by the culture wars bullshit

But obviously there are (at least) two sides in this 'culture war', and this hot potato has been well and truly roasted by both sets of fringe whack-a-loons. I brought it up as a recent example of a Labour MP saying something loopy that no one agrees with. Turns out she didn't mean it, apparently she ended up garbling the *opposite* of what she meant, then complained that she got flustered because the interview was 'ridiculous' (because this professional MP with 15 years of high-level experience was expecting a GMB sofa chat with Richard Madeley to have the discursive substance of Weekend World?).

Quote
backtracked to... what, exactly?

To the position that Dawn Butler isn't quite as loopy as she allows herself to appear on television. Which is a relief.

Quote
you're reaching a bit, aren't you?

Is Roy Hattersley also 'reaching a bit' in his analysis of Labour veering too far to the left?


Cardenio I

  • Hasta la muerte, todo es vida
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2020, 04:21:45 PM »
I think he's reaching more than a bit, yes. I'm happy to go into why, but I'm not sure here would be the right thread and I'm not sure it wouldn't take us some distance from the original point being discussed.

j_u_d_a_s

  • Enjoy the weekend, you'll be dead on Monday!
Re: Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2020, 12:18:07 AM »
No point arguing with a certain poster here, he'll always throw more bad faith questions and cherry pick what he wants to respond to. The mistake is thinking there's any logic behind his blatant bigotry, it's a purely emotional response and all he can do is make psuedo-logical arguments to justify his own prejudices. Another mediocre man who wants to be seen as an intellectual like too many other mediocre white men, just too chicken shit to start a youtube channel.

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