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March 28, 2024, 12:22:49 PM

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Simon Evans clambers on the anti-woke bandwagon [split topic]

Started by Utter Shit, February 27, 2020, 09:47:21 AM

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Autopsy Turvey

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on March 06, 2020, 12:18:07 AM
cherry pick what he wants to respond to.

Who doesn't do that? There's only so many hours in the day, and as you'll agree, many points don't warrant a response.

QuoteThe mistake is thinking there's any logic behind his blatant bigotry,

Bigotry, as in, intolerance of different views? If I was that, I'd have no interest in reading what anyone says here, and I wouldn't bother getting involved in threads that frequently froth with what you'd presumably call the correct sort of bigotry.

Quoteit's a purely emotional response and all he can do is make psuedo-logical arguments to justify his own prejudices.

Projection!

QuoteAnother mediocre man who wants to be seen as an intellectual

Intellectual can't be the right word, that's hardly likely, you don't get me wanking on about Schopenhauer or Das Kapital or whatever, I'm not even sure what 'bad faith' means.

Quotelike too many other mediocre white men, just too chicken shit to start a youtube channel.

I've got a youtube channel ta, but it's for odd old music and comedy, I've no desire to waffle opinions to a camera if that's what you mean, I'm convinced of very few things. This is why I prefer to challenge assertions in written word debate with people who do have their big opinions sewn onto their sleeves, and if the challenges are rebutted with a degree of wit and intelligence and tolerance, then it bodes well for the argument.

I'll take "mediocre white man" as a fair assessment, but I'm not so mediocre that I have to go on the internet to call a fellow human a "mediocre white man", in a place where that's virtually a qualification for entry.

#91
Quote from: Autopsy Turvey on March 06, 2020, 02:33:17 AMI'm not even sure what 'bad faith' means.

It's just another way of saying you're disingenuous and too much of a chicken/snake to speak from your wicked, black heart.

Good faith and bad faith are concepts that existed long before social media, and have legitimate uses, but they've been all but done to death by people who are well keen on their internet slanging matches.

There's a Wikipedia article, if that helps.


phantom_power

There are lots of people on the internet who argue in bad faith though. They are "just asking questions" or have "genuine concerns" which is just a shield to hide their shit opinions and goading of others. You see it all the time, especially from the anti-trans lot and people defending racists, homophobes and the like

dissolute ocelot

Quote from: phantom_power on March 06, 2020, 09:01:36 AM
There are lots of people on the internet who argue in bad faith though. They are "just asking questions" or have "genuine concerns" which is just a shield to hide their shit opinions and goading of others. You see it all the time, especially from the anti-trans lot and people defending racists, homophobes and the like
Most trolling is arguing from bad faith, whether it's asking a question that you've no interest in the answer to, or claiming to be interested in something that you only mention to stir up trouble.

Autopsy Turvey

Quote from: phantom_power on March 06, 2020, 09:01:36 AM
There are lots of people on the internet who argue in bad faith though. They are "just asking questions" or have "genuine concerns" which is just a shield to hide their shit opinions

Then their questions should be civilly answerable, and their concerns allayable? The worry is that people who are asking genuine questions and have genuine concerns then get shut down and insulted for daring to engage in "bad faith", which just sounds like snooty dismissal. Also 'shit opinions' is a bit of a giveaway, it behoves me to ask if it's possible for anyone to have the same opinions as you and still be acting in bad faith. Cos it does just sound a bit like a quick and lazy way to shut down a train of thought one doesn't like while sounding vaguely clever and superior.

Quote from: His Name Is Death on March 06, 2020, 02:57:38 AM
It's just another way of saying you're disingenuous and too much of a chicken/snake to speak from your wicked, black heart.

Opinions don't come from the heart though, do they? Passions do, instincts do, and they get us into enough trouble! But surely opinions have to be thought out, cogitated over brain-wise, tested, challenged, defended, rationalised, revised with new evidence/experience etc.

(Mind I've noticed that for a lot of people nowadays, their political opinions seem to be like their children, as in they're a steaming shitty mess that annoy most other people and ruin parties, but are adored, indulged and defended beyond all objective sense by the aggressively overemotional parent.)


Autopsy Turvey

Quote from: bgmnts on March 06, 2020, 02:58:16 PM
Genuine questions.

At very least springboards for elucidation and further discussion. It might come down to someone not having the information you have that makes you think the way you think on a given issue. Virtually every question I ask on here is genuine, except the odd jocular rhetorical flourish. I don't care if you believe me or not, I know I'll never get an answer from you. Sometimes the questions do get an answer and that little act can reaffirm my faith in human nature, even if it might warrant further questions or disagreements.

bgmnts

Most people will answer a genuine question with a genuine answer, maybe a genuinely funny answer if you're lucky.

gilbertharding

Thing is - it's not my job to answer your sensible, genuine, sincere questions, never mind your facile, disingenuous, idiotic ones.

Do your own research. It's all out there, if you genuinely want to know.

Autopsy Turvey

Quote from: gilbertharding on March 06, 2020, 03:33:53 PM
Thing is - it's not my job to answer your sensible, genuine, sincere questions, never mind your facile, disingenuous, idiotic ones.Do your own research. It's all out there, if you genuinely want to know.

It is, but there are many and various sources, different people might have different answers based on different perspectives and different interpretations of different sets of data. This is why I find it so hard to come down on any side, and so difficult to understand how many people can and do. Hence my spot on the political compass, a ring around the centre where the double axis intersects. Which I suppose means I'll never be happy with any single answer, and that I think everyone's got about one quarter of a good point.

Sometimes facile, inconsequential, endless debate is all that certain people have going on in their lives, and we shouldn't be prejudiced against those people

Autopsy Turvey

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on March 06, 2020, 03:47:20 PM
Sometimes facile, inconsequential debate is all people have going on in their lives, and we shouldn't be prejudiced against those people

Maybe so, though I doubt many of us have ever met any, even those of us who have spent hundreds of days in a place where facile and inconsequential debate is the name of the game.

The fact that you don't know the difference between healthy discussion and facile debate is your whole problem

Quote from: Autopsy Turvey on March 06, 2020, 03:45:35 PM
It is, but there are many and various sources, different people might have different answers based on different perspectives and different interpretations of different sets of data. This is why I find it so hard to come down on any side, and so difficult to understand how many people can and do. Hence my spot on the political compass, a ring around the centre where the double axis intersects. Which I suppose means I'll never be happy with any single answer, and that I think everyone's got about one quarter of a good point.

You're coming at it from too many angles, Autopsy and it'll drive you crazy. The trick is to simplify. What you need to do is follow Blair's example and develop an "irreducible core" - an absolute certainty in the correctness of your viewpoint - and see how it goes from there.

Never seen somebody who's so professedly unsure bristle so much and at such length when they feel their viewpoint is being undermined. Almost as if it's bullshit designed to lure you fuckers in to an endless metadiscussion about tolerating other viewpoints!

j_u_d_a_s


jobotic

When I see Tommy Robinson or Paul Golding followers shouting abuse at passing brown people I like to spend some time weighing up different sources and researching before I pick a side. But then I'm not emotional.

gilbertharding

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on March 06, 2020, 04:17:41 PM
Never seen somebody who's so professedly unsure bristle so much and at such length when they feel their viewpoint is being undermined. Almost as if it's bullshit designed to lure you fuckers in to an endless metadiscussion about tolerating other viewpoints!

Nail on the head, there.

sevendaughters

Quote from: Autopsy Turvey on March 06, 2020, 03:45:35 PM
This is why I find it so hard to come down on any side, and so difficult to understand how many people can and do. Hence my spot on the political compass, a ring around the centre where the double axis intersects. Which I suppose means I'll never be happy with any single answer, and that I think everyone's got about one quarter of a good point.

"I'm really fucking smart, smarter than all of you lot!"

Quote from: Autopsy Turvey on March 06, 2020, 02:56:16 PM
Opinions don't come from the heart though, do they? Passions do, instincts do, and they get us into enough trouble! But surely opinions have to be thought out, cogitated over brain-wise, tested, challenged, defended, rationalised, revised with new evidence/experience etc.

Well, yes, but it wasn't meant to be a literal definition, only a semi-serious one. The gist of it, in the sense its often used, is that a person has underlying conservative opinions but, rather than express them frankly and openly, they operate under the guise of asking "genuine questions", raising "genuine concerns" or playing devil's advocate through "a Socratic approach". I guess there's just not a lot of trust towards people, a lot like Evans, who paint themselves merely as non-conformists who toy with surface-level thinkers - the feeling being they will let themselves slip at some point and reveal they're not as above the roar of ideology and daily politics as they like to think.


Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: Autopsy Turvey on March 02, 2020, 08:22:31 PM
To clarify, that's not my tribe, my tribe is that of the cripplingly centrist non-voting agnostic dyed-in-the-wool don't know.

This pretty much sums me up. In practice though, it just means people on the left will assume you're a Tory, whereas people on the right will assume you're a Lefty. Not having 'a team' simply doesn't compute for 99 percent of the population. "The price of sanity is alienation".

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on March 06, 2020, 04:17:41 PM
Never seen somebody who's so professedly unsure bristle so much and at such length when they feel their viewpoint is being undermined. Almost as if it's bullshit designed to lure you fuckers in to an endless metadiscussion about tolerating other viewpoints!

I don't buy that though. It might apply for people like Saragon who'll literally say the word "n**ger" and then try to turn everything into a meta-discussion about what is and isn't sayable. That's someone who's using meta-discussion as a blatant guise to push through and normalise repugnant racism.

As far as I can tell, what you have here is someone questioning whether Simon Evans is truly as awful as people say he is. He did admittedly use the word "loon" - but I'm not convinced anyone's genuinely affronted by that; and if they are, I find it incredible that the self-same people are happy to wave through people being called "cunts" and "fucking idiots" just for expressing any view slightly right of the far left.

It's almost as if (to borrow your own phrase) people don't really care about the tone or quality of debate just so long as they're not the ones being criticised!


Quote from: Sony Walkman Prophecies on March 08, 2020, 09:26:16 AM
I don't buy that though.

oh no :(

AT defended, at length, the exact Sargon remark you're referring to. So once again you're wading out of your depth on this one


chveik

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on March 08, 2020, 12:26:00 PM
oh no :(

AT defended, at length, the exact Sargon remark you're referring to. So once again you're wading out of your depth on this one

this is the one thing we didn't want to happen!

Sony Walkman Prophecies

Quote from: bgmnts on March 08, 2020, 12:35:19 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/8dvnhc/centrists_are_cowards/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

A. Only works if someone actually self-identifies as a centrist/has no strong views on anything.


B. The reductio ad absurdum at the end of the post is unintentionally hilarious since the 'absurd consequence' actually happens to be true.


P.S. your own post contains the corrective - "Only people that are all the way to the left or the right thinks every policy should be a left or a right one. You don't have to be a centrist to be nuanced."