Author Topic: Star Trek - The Next Generation  (Read 9969 times)

Malcy

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2020, 05:46:06 PM »
It's the Star Trek Universe panel for SDCC today. Starting shortly I think. Discovery, Lower Decks & a Picard panel.

https://trekmovie.com/2020/07/23/watch-star-trek-universe-panel-live-from-comic-conhome-starts-1000-am-pt/

purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2020, 06:58:01 PM »
Well I really enjoyed Generations. Definitely pretty lightweight on the whole, but I thought it was a lot of fun. Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner were both exceptional throughout.

purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #152 on: July 24, 2020, 09:06:19 PM »
First Contact was very different, considerably more cinematic than Generations, which felt like an episode with a slightly bigger budget. The look this time was startling, though. Really quite a heavy going and frequently bleak film. I enjoyed it a lot, although I'm not 100% sure how well the Borg Queen idea works. Overall, though, great.

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #153 on: July 24, 2020, 10:05:52 PM »
I'm not 100% sure how well the Borg Queen idea works.

Big mistake, and Voyager runs with it. You can see why the writers did it, needing somebody to face off against, but a real dumb move that misses the whole point of the Borg.

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2020, 11:37:48 AM »
true, that. think the Borg would've been even better in Voyager if they'd been left post-queen to become a kind of fractured zombie horde - too much network crosstalk for them to coordinate and decide, it's all just shambolic instinct.

I'll snip before I just dump all my weird Borg thoughts in one reply

Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2020, 12:27:20 PM »
Considering Borg is a famously Swedish name and the Swedes love a bit of democratic socialism, has anyone ever suggested that the Borg represent the American fear of socialism? If no one has, then I'll claim that. Along with the Ferengi originally being massively antisemitic.

purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #156 on: July 25, 2020, 01:25:46 PM »
Not sure a fear of socialism quite works in the Star Trek universe, however.

Had a dream last night that one of the TNG films was an 18, and Picard said 'cunt' in it.

I get the feeling it wasn't Insurrection, however, which I'm watching this evening. I've not seen it, but its reputation is already putting a bit of a downer on my day.

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #157 on: July 25, 2020, 01:27:27 PM »
true, that. think the Borg would've been even better in Voyager if they'd been left post-queen to become a kind of fractured zombie horde - too much network crosstalk for them to coordinate and decide, it's all just shambolic instinct.

I'll snip before I just dump all my weird Borg thoughts in one reply

Nah, the most frightening thing about the Borg was that everything they did was in lockstep with ruthless machine precision and a complete lack of personality or doubt. A disorganised Borg is a just a lot of senile cyborgs running amok.

earl_sleek

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #158 on: July 25, 2020, 01:30:37 PM »
I get the feeling it wasn't Insurrection, however, which I'm watching this evening. I've not seen it, but its reputation is already putting a bit of a downer on my day.

If you like Generations you probably won't mind Insurrection, it's another one that feels like an extended episode. I find a dull but not awful.

Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #159 on: July 25, 2020, 01:50:31 PM »
I saw Insurrection in the cinema when I was 12. I often think that might be why I never grew into a full-on Trekkie, as I was heading that way at the time. I think it's easily the weakest of all Star Trek movies.

Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #160 on: July 25, 2020, 01:57:20 PM »
Considering Borg is a famously Swedish name and the Swedes love a bit of democratic socialism, has anyone ever suggested that the Borg represent the American fear of socialism? If no one has, then I'll claim that. Along with the Ferengi originally being massively antisemitic.

It could be said they represent an American fear of societies/countries with a strong sense of collective citizen responsibility, as opposed to their massively individualistic attitude, where any potential civic duty (face masks heh!) is perceived as a threat to their liberty. I don't think its overtly socialist v capitalist although there are certainly elements of that.

purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #161 on: July 25, 2020, 04:47:29 PM »
TNG1: 6.88
TNG2: 7.36
TNG3: 7.92307692
TNG4: 8.03846154
TNG5: 7.96153846
TNG6: 7.88461538
TNG7: 7.76
For reference, here are my TOS scores:
TOS1: 7.34482759
TOS2: 6.96153846
TOS3: 6.75
TOSF: 7.67

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #162 on: July 25, 2020, 06:49:19 PM »
TOSF?

daf

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #163 on: July 25, 2020, 07:11:51 PM »
Film?


Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #164 on: July 25, 2020, 07:29:13 PM »

Favourite 25 episodes, in broadcast order:
The Measure of a Man
Time Squared
Q Who
Deja Q
Yesterday's Enterprise
The Offspring
Sins of the Father
Best of Both Worlds
Family
Data's Day
The Nth Degree
The Drumhead
Darmok
Disaster
Cause and Effect
I Borg
The Next Phase
The Inner Light
Schisms
Chain of Command
Tapestry
Lessons
Phantasms
Parallels
All Good Things

Really good list all in all, although I watched Time Squared again recently and although it has a nicely unsettling atmosphere it didn't hold together as well as I remembered. Also the moral lesson presented in Tapestry, i.e. be a ruthless risk-taker or you won't do well in life, feels decidedly iffy now. Still a good ep though. Cause and Effect is maybe the best of seasons 4-7 (EDIT: actually, equal footing with Chain of Command). There's some great directorial touches from Frakes in the way he subtly alters shots for each new repeat of the loop.

A few honourable mentions off the top of my head (roughly in season order):
Conspiracy - The best season 1 episode? That wouldn't be difficult I guess. The change of tone is very welcome, though a bit of a shock at this point. Surprisingly gory (think I'm right in saying BBC2 never aired the original edit), and a great shame it was never followed up. Apparently it was originally meant to foreshadow the arrival of the Borg, as originally they were conceived as an insectoid race, but the writing team changed tack and the thread of this episode was left forever dangling.

Peak Performance - Just lots of fun.

Night Terrors - Creepy as hell, especially the scene with Crusher in the morgue. Slightly let down with the ropey effects during Troi's dream.

The Game - It's a bit silly, but a really good tension builder, Wil Wheaton puts in a good shift, and proof that you could have a Wesley-centric episode that doesn't have to result in him saving the day. It also foreshadows the development of augmented reality long before it was a thing.

Frame of Mind - This one gets overlooked too often. It's possibly Frakes' best performance, and leaves you with a very unsettling 'but is he actually back in reality?' feeling at the end.

The Pegasus - lots of intrigue, and a notably incredibly tense altercation between Picard and Riker ("I'M TAKING THIS UP WITH YOU WILL!!")

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #165 on: July 25, 2020, 09:02:52 PM »

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #166 on: July 26, 2020, 09:46:50 AM »
Considering Borg is a famously Swedish name and the Swedes love a bit of democratic socialism, has anyone ever suggested that the Borg represent the American fear of socialism? If no one has, then I'll claim that. Along with the Ferengi originally being massively antisemitic.

There is definitely something of that in the creation. More of a subordination of the individual. Star Trek may be socialist originally but TNG makes frequent references to free will, individual agency and essential value of free thinking and personal development. The Borg is slavery, absolutism and subsuming yourself, which is an antithesis, so more a critique of state totalitarianism, not specifically Communism or Fascism but arguably theocracies too.

What makes Borg better than simply a political allegory is there is something sinisterly seductive about them, I think there's a psychosexual element of submission (certainly amplified once Borg Queen arrives).

I think this is why the series resonates so well, it picks up a core audience who are familiar with these themes and is willing to toy with them a bit.

Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #167 on: July 26, 2020, 12:26:58 PM »
Don't think my season ratings are very different from others, maybe a fair bit harsher

S1 4.7
S2 5.1
S3 6.3
S4 6.1
S5 6.1
S6 6.07
S7 5.8

Huge jump in quality between S2-S3. I think Season 4 was the most consistently good season, the others had higher highs but a few lows that tanked the score a little.

Only two stories got below a score of 2. One scored one, and there is a 0. Can you guess what stories they are?

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #168 on: July 26, 2020, 12:29:39 PM »
The episode where Riker and Picard shag and kill some kids?

Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #169 on: July 26, 2020, 01:09:16 PM »
Don't think my season ratings are very different from others, maybe a fair bit harsher

S1 4.7
S2 5.1
S3 6.3
S4 6.1
S5 6.1
S6 6.07
S7 5.8

Huge jump in quality between S2-S3. I think Season 4 was the most consistently good season, the others had higher highs but a few lows that tanked the score a little.

Only two stories got below a score of 2. One scored one, and there is a 0. Can you guess what stories they are?

Code of Honour and Shades of Gray I would wager.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #170 on: July 26, 2020, 01:16:53 PM »
Shades of Gray
Sub Rosa
The Outrageous Okona

Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #171 on: July 26, 2020, 02:04:15 PM »
Code of Honour and Shades of Gray I would wager.

Correct

Code Of Honour was horrible and racist, so got my 1 score.

Shades of Gray was just a clip show. So that is my lowest rated story.

Sub Rosa got a 2. Terrible and offensive to Scottish people, but not as bad as CoH

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #172 on: July 26, 2020, 02:35:46 PM »
Apparently the original idea in Code of Honour was that they'd be reptiles. And even when they were changed to humans only Lutan and his immediate retinue would be black and the other Ligonians were going to be whatever colour the easily available extras were. The director decided to make them all black and was fired mid production.

I'm not sure that making them different races would have saved it from looking like a Victorian author's idea of a 'Noble Savage' culture though.


Another TNG that pissed me off, even though I know it's nowhere near the worst is 'Rascals'. Turn 4 characters into annoying children. Then we don't know what to do with them, so we'll have some Ferengi with two old Birds of Prey defeat and capture the flagship of Starfleet because Riker failed the 'How to order your Tactical Officer to fire phasers" module in the Academy.  And then less than 10 Ferengi somehow keep a huge ship with a crew of 1000 subdued.

purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #173 on: July 27, 2020, 08:33:10 PM »
If you like Generations you probably won't mind Insurrection, it's another one that feels like an extended episode. I find a dull but not awful.
Yeah, I thought Insurrection was fine. It's not quite a story that deserves movie treatment really - like you say, just feels like a long episode really - but there was nothing I didn't like about it.

Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #174 on: July 27, 2020, 08:38:48 PM »

Another TNG that pissed me off, even though I know it's nowhere near the worst is 'Rascals'. Turn 4 characters into annoying children. Then we don't know what to do with them, so we'll have some Ferengi with two old Birds of Prey defeat and capture the flagship of Starfleet because Riker failed the 'How to order your Tactical Officer to fire phasers" module in the Academy.  And then less than 10 Ferengi somehow keep a huge ship with a crew of 1000 subdued.

When I was a child and saw TNG for the first time it was this episode. I caught the second half and thought for a few years that this was the first episode and that Picard was a kid that was aged by the transporter in order to be old enough to be captain.

Wonderful Butternut

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #175 on: July 27, 2020, 08:51:33 PM »
Yeah, I thought Insurrection was fine. It's not quite a story that deserves movie treatment really - like you say, just feels like a long episode really - but there was nothing I didn't like about it.

Delete a few stupid, cringey, hammy attempts at humour and it's good. Probably the most Star Trek story of the movies too, with the exception of The Motion Picture.

I actually prefer the original unscreened ending where Picard disarms the collector instead of destroying it, but Ru'afo scrambles up to the pod to try and stop him and ends up getting ejected into the magic radioactive rings and de-aging into nothingness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHJ7opsQnQo

And before that in the scene where Riker's reporting to him (the Ent-E was still out of range as it wasn't needed to rescue him from the exploding collector in this version) also contains Picard saying "top level review my ass.": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-UxpMUvfJ4

Malcy

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #176 on: July 27, 2020, 10:50:02 PM »
Yeah, I thought Insurrection was fine. It's not quite a story that deserves movie treatment really - like you say, just feels like a long episode really - but there was nothing I didn't like about it.

I like Insurrection as well. I just wish they would release the deleted scene from the end where Quark turns up looking to set up a holiday resort.



There's a rundown of the scene and dialogue somewhere. Max Grodenchik who played Rom in DS9 played a Trill crew member but his scene was also cut. Apparently Jadzia's death was mentioned but cut as well.

Edit - here's the Quark scene from the script.

Quote
I can't seem to find any video or material aside from this set photo. Though, I did find the scene in the script.

                              QUARK'S VOICE
                                    Worf!

               They turn to see a Ferengi (QUARK) approaching in a
               bathing suit with a beach umbrella and two barely dressed
               Dabo girls..

                                       WORF
                         What are you doing here, Quark?

                                       QUARK
                         The same thing everyone else in
                         the quadrant is going to be doing
                         here... as soon as I build the
                         greatest spa in the galaxy...
                                 (sotto)
                         ... these people don't have any
                         religious thing about casinos do
                         they...?

                                       PICARD
                         There aren't going to be any spas
                         on this planet.

                                       QUARK
                         Do I know you?

                                       PICARD
                                 (ignoring the
                                  question)
                         This world is about to become a
                         Federation protectorate, which
                         will end any and all attempts at
                         exploitation by people like you.

                                       QUARK
                         Explain to me how five thousand
                         time-share units... right there
                         along the lake... would be
                         'exploiting' anyone.

                                       PICARD
                         Mister Worf, have this
                         uninvited... offlander and his
                         quests beamed to the Enterprise.
                         We'll deposit them at Deep Space
                         Nine.

                                       WORF
                         Must you, sir?

               Worf takes Quark away by the scruff of his beach shirt...
               his disappointed babes follow ...trailing away --

                                       QUARK
                         You'll hear from my Nagus.


purlieu

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #177 on: July 28, 2020, 06:37:19 PM »
Hah, I like that.

Nemesis tonight. Really bizarre how utterly different that was to the previous film. I rather like the darker approach to Star Trek, something the show rarely did. The overall plot was interesting, too. I just wish it had been done without all the long action sequences and set pieces, like the opening sequence which seemed to have totally forgotten who Picard even is (ironic, given the film's plot). Some really naff stuff in the score and the graphics, too. That said, I wasn't expecting Data's death, which was gutting.
I think I basically liked it as a film but it really wasn't a Star Trek film.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #178 on: July 29, 2020, 12:59:13 AM »
And now to read that wonderful classic, Star Heck: Irregardless. Again.

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Re: Star Trek - The Next Generation
« Reply #179 on: August 04, 2020, 01:59:53 PM »
I’ve just discovered these edit clips and they’re hilarious. They remind me in part of the editing in Sealab 2021.

If anyone knows of anything else like this I’d be very open to recommendations. Much needed silliness.