Author Topic: Doctor Who Series 12B: The Timeless Chibnall (Xmas special & pre-Series 13 chat)  (Read 15939 times)

Blinder Data

  • Use your library
Last thread reached 100 pages, time to turn over a new leaf

Ambient Sheep, please do your mega-thread post thing

Ambient Sheep

  • Please help me, I'm lost. I don't know what to do.
Quite a few additions this time, as it appears that last time round I wasn't quite as thorough as I should have been.  New additions (and one changed entry) marked with an asterisk.

Sheepy's guide to Doctor Who threads

Main threads about the new series, in chronological order of creation:
2004/03/04 - 2004/03/20:  Izzard as Dr Who ? (Rampant speculation)
2004/03/20 - 2005/02/21:  And the new Doctor Who is... (Eccleston's announcement to the start of Series 1 (27))
2005/02/27 - 2006/10/10:  New Doctor Who (Series 1 (27) & 2 (28))
2006/11/01 - 2007/05/21:  Newer Doctor Who  (Series 3 (29) part 1)
2007/05/24 - 2009/10/21:  The New Doctor Who thread (Series 3 (29) part 2, Series 4 (30), 2009 up to but not including The Waters Of Mars)
2009/10/21 - 2010/03/26:  The "New" Doctor Who Thread (2009 just before The Waters of Mars to just before Series 5 (31/Fnarg) aired)
2010/03/18 - 2010/07/27:  Doctor Who - Series 5 Discussion (No Spoilers) (Series 5 (31/Fnarg))
2010/06/13 - 2011/01/15:  So, Doctor Who. (started as Fry's questions thread, mutated halfway down page 12 into general post-Series-5-(31/Fnarg) discussion, including the 2010 Christmas special (A Christmas Carol))
2011/01/20 - 2012/01/05:  Doctor Who Series 6 (Series 6 (32))
2012/01/07 - 2012/12/29:  Doctor Who Series 7 and beyond (may contain spoilers) (S07(33)E01 (Asylum of the Daleks) - S07(33)E05 (The Angels Take Manhattan) plus Christmas Special (The Snowmen))
2012/12/29 - 2013/07/11:  Doctor Who, Series 7 (part two) (S07(33)E06 (The Bells of Saint John) - S07(33)E13 (The Name of the Doctor))
2013/01/07 - 2014/01/05:  Doctor Who - 50th anniversary year (overlaps with the previous thread)
2013/12/26 - 2014/08/11:  Doctor Who - Series 8 (101 pages before Series 8 (34) had even aired!)
2014/08/09 - 2014/10/21:  Doctor Who - Series 8 (Part 2) (S08(34)E01 (Deep Breath) - S08(34)E09 (Flatline))
2014/10/21 - 2015/01/14:  Doctor Who - Series 8 (Part 3) (S08(34)E09 (Flatline) - S08(34)E12 (Death in Heaven) plus Christmas Special (Last Christmas))
2015/01/05 - 2015/10/27:  Doctor Who - Series 9 (S09(35) speculation and E01 (The Magician's Apprentice) - E06 (The Woman Who Lived))
2015/10/26 - 2016/01/21:  Doctor Who - Series 9 (continued) (S09(35)E07 (The Zygon Invasion) - S09(35)E12 (Hell Bent) plus Christmas Special (The Husbands of River Song))
2016/01/22 - 2017/04/15:  Doctor Who - Series 10 (Pre-S10(36) speculation)
2017/04/15 - 2017/08/07:  Doctor Who - Series 10 (Part 2) (S10(36)E01 (The Pilot) - S10(36)E12 (The Doctor Falls))
2017/08/07 - 2018/01/07:  Doctor Who - Series 10 (Part 3) (Christmas Special (Twice Upon a Time) and general chatter about the impending Chibnall era)
2018/01/07 - 2018/11/02:  Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 1) (62 pages of pre-S11(37) speculation, then S11(37)E01 (The Woman Who Fell to Earth) to S11(37)E04 (Arachnids in the UK))
2018/11/02 - 2019/06/13:  Doctor Who - Series 11 (Part 2) (S11(37)E05 (The Tsuranga Conundrum) to S11(37)E10 (The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos) plus New Year's Day Special (Resolution), then whatever the thread equivalent of "The entire thousand‐mile­‐long bridge spontaneously folded up its glittering spans and sank weeping into the mire, taking everybody with it." would be)
* 2019/06/13 - 2020/03/03: Doctor Who - Series 12, Chibnall's Revenge (24 pages of Pre-S12(38) speculation, then Ballad's review of S12(38)E01 (Spyfall, Part 1), then two-and-a-half pages later, everyone else's, then all of Series 12 up to and including S12(38)E10 (The Timeless Children).
* 2020/03/03 - 202?/??/??: Doctor Who Series 12B: The Timeless Chibnall (Xmas special & pre-Series 13 chat) (What it says on the tin -- you're reading it now)


Threads about the old series, in chronological order of creation:
Old Doctor Who (Original thread, 2005/05/11 - 2010/06/08)
Old Doctor Who (Second thread, 2011/01/14 - 2016/10/21)
Old Doctor Who - Part 3 (Third thread, 2016/10/21 - 20??/??/??)


Threads about both, but for your ears only:
Doctor Who Audio Adventures (Big Finish etc.)


Other Doctor Who related broadcast threads, also in chronological order:
Torchwood Series 1
The Sarah Jane Adventures (just the pilot, not Series 1, there was no S1 thread)
Torchwood Series 2
Sarah Jane adventures- Series 2
Torchwood Series 3 (aka Children of Earth)
Sarah Jane Adventures Series 3
Doctor Who and the SPOILERS OF DEATH (aborted Series 5 (31/Fnarg) thread)
Junior Masterchef with Doctor Who
Doctor Who: The Adventure Games
Torchwood: The New World (one-page thread presaging Series 4 / Miracle Day)
Torchwood return date.... (three-post thread announcing Series 4 / Miracle Day)
Torchwood: Miracle Day (aka Series 4)
Torchwood: Miracle Day (US airings)
Class (Doctor Who spin-off) series 1

There wasn't a Sarah Jane Adventures Series 4 thread, let alone a Series 5 one. :-(


The Doctor Who Radio Times Project - with thanks to Replies From View
* A Radio Times History of Doctor Who: 01 William Hartnell


Still more Doctor Who related threads, again in chronological order:
Fanzines (Comedy, Doctor Who and in general)
The Best And Worst Of Doctor Who... Ever
Doctor Who - where does everyone stand now ?
Mong Doctor Who series 5 (H.S. Art thread)
Recommend me some Old Doctor Who (a really good thread, IMHO)
Doctor Who Mongs (H.S. Art thread)
Beeb to show unseen interview with Dr Who theme creator (Delia Derbyshire)
Doctor Who film (November 2011 thread about film rumour)
Watching Doctor Who no 1. The Time Meddler (1965)
Why i don't like modern Doctor Who
Doctor Who leaked scripts thread (but still no spoilers) (July 2014)
Doctor Who: The Movie (April 2015 thread about another film rumour)
K9: Timequake (new movie coming 2017, allegedly... very allegedly, by now)
Doctor Who World (should it become an expanded franchise like Marvel?)
Dr Who Re Dooooo (would it be worth refilming some early stories?)
Doctor Who or Chips? (addressing the burning issue of the day)
Tom Baker is still alive (General Tom Baker appreciation thread)
* Lost WHO script. (Spoon of Ploff writes a Doctor Who story in H.S. Art)
* BRADLEY WALSH will be Doctor Who's companion (Two-and-a-half pages of mild jaw-droppage from 2017/08/21-24, however this comment fails to be "very sarky")
Radiophonic Prom (featuring the music of Delia Derbyshire, among others)
Watching Doctor Who (2005) from the middle of the beginning (madhair60 sparks discussion about the RTD era -- includes a superb Sheepy-has-to-up-his-game-now list by Talulah, really! to every individual episode discussion of the first three series; many thanks for that!)
* Clive Swift has died (and much of the thread is about that DWM interview)
* giant blue penis bloke from doctor who (the Moxx of Balhoon gets his own thread, then lives it up with Balok and friends)
* Wanting to get into old Doctor Who (madhair60 enquires again; lots of good answers)


(See here for sources.  Further additions & corrections welcome.)

See this is where I started hating the Star Wars saga after The Empire Strikes Back. One of the great things about Star Wars (no, I'm not calling it 'A New Hope') is that it shows any old hick from the sticks, any nobody with a dream, can go out there and save the worlds from the forces of evil. Then The Empire Strikes Back comes along and says, well actually no, sorry, you can only do this if you're actually a royal prince. Oh, great. So only the entitled get to be the heroes after all.

And now we've got exactly the same situation with Doctor Who. Until now - and despite the various hero legends suggested in the McCoy era - the Doctor was still basically a grumpy shit who'd had enough of sitting around on his arse on Gallifrey and wanted to get out and make a difference. He was about as 'everyman' as a sci-fi hero gets. But not any more! Turns out he's actually the founder of pretty the most powerful civilisation in the entire universe. And that's clearly not while we love him. Imagine Ian and Barbara stumbling into the TARDIS in Totters Lane, "Who are you?" they ask, "Why, I am one of the most powerful and important beings in the universe!". Doesn't work does it.

This summarises far better than I was able to word it, why I hate what's happened so much.  So much that it honestly after all these years makes me question whether I want to carry on with it next year or just call it a day and do some retcon headcanoning.

Aren't these things normally spoilered or do we not give a shit any more?

To be fair, I think you'd be hard pressed to avoid that news for a full 9 months


Thomas

  • well they do all sixteen dances.
Nice work as always, Ambient.

I was just struck by another thought (this silly show will consume my mind for days).

In Fugitive of the Judoon, the Doctor is confronted with a mysterious other self. After a few minutes of basic uncertainty, the episode closes on a message, delivered almost to camera by the companions: 'your past doesn't matter, you know who you are.'

It doesn't trouble the Doctor again until The Timeless Child. The existence of Ruth is (partially) explained, and the Doctor suffers a few lines of very basic uncertainty before we receive the message: 'your past doesn't matter, you know who you are.'

What is the Doctor's psychological journey between the two episodes, the two staggered revelations? Nowt. She's entirely neutral between plot points. Same resolution each time. I suppose you could argue that it's significant that Ruth herself is delivering the message the second time, but the Doctor's immediately fine on both occasions anyway. Why not save the message for the finale?

In Gridlock, the Doctor was left genuinely shaken by the Face of Boe's dying words. As far as I recall, the ep doesn't end with a sense of 'oh, well, doesn't matter', resetting the Doctor's mood to neutral. It isn't resolved until Utopia, which triggers an even bigger peril. The Doctor was plagued and troubled by the cracks throughout series 5, he didn't just relax again every time they went out of shot. There was some great drama in series 6, wonderfully performed by Matt Smith, over the secrets being kept by his companions (and vice versa).

Here it was just SOME DIALOGUE. Then back to normal. Then SOME MORE DIALOGUE in the finale. The 'bad wolf' arc is often accused of this simplicity, but that was just a sign sent back through time. In itself, it meant nothing. This is supposed to be a matter of identity for the show's main character.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 03:55:02 PM by Thomas »

Ambient Sheep

  • Please help me, I'm lost. I don't know what to do.
Nice work as always, Ambient.

Thanks. :-)

Reading it back on just three hours' sleep though, I'm wondering exactly when and how Tom Baker became a General.

Blinder Data

  • Use your library
Twitter script doctor man Andrew Ellard put out a thread that is worth reading: https://twitter.com/ellardent/status/1234477352090034177

The point about portraying the first female Doctor as a victim of childhood abuse is an interesting one.

Norton Canes

  • Watching the Wednesday wheel
Ho hum. Nearly through it. The 'Death Particle' exchange near the end, that's a blatant rip-off of the Davros "To hold in my hand a capsule..." dialogue in Genesis Of The...

Oh. Hang on. Master? Sorry, you might want to get the Cyber Lords to shoot that guy... Yeah, hello? I said, you might want to get the Cyber Lords to shoot that guy before he...

Sake.

Ambient Sheep

  • Please help me, I'm lost. I don't know what to do.
Twitter script doctor man Andrew Ellard put out a thread that is worth reading: https://twitter.com/ellardent/status/1234477352090034177

That's an excellent and thought-provoking read.  Thank you.

Norton Canes

  • Watching the Wednesday wheel
Yes. Although the main thought it provokes is, why not write the whole thing in, you know, proper sentences and paragraphs?

Thomas

  • well they do all sixteen dances.
Yes. Although the main thought it provokes is, why not write the whole thing in, you know, proper sentences and paragraphs?

I asked a friend about this recently, why tweeters so often divide their statements into separate tweets instead of just posting a JPEG of the message. Apparently Twitter's feed (??) favours multiple tweets over single posts, meaning they're more likely to be seen by other users. I'm not sure. He was going on a bit (he does use Twitter, after all), but that seemed to be the gist.

petrilTanaka

  • Are we counting shites?
I asked a friend about this recently, why tweeters so often divide their statements into separate tweets instead of just posting a JPEG of the message. Apparently Twitter's feed (??) favours multiple tweets over single posts, meaning they're more likely to be seen by other users. I'm not sure. He was going on a bit (he does use Twitter, after all), but that seemed to be the gist.

plus images are a cunt when it comes to screenreaders and the like

Alberon

  • His heart is an empty fridge
It's the end, but the moment has been prepared for royally fucked up.

The Yaz/Graham Chronicles Series Two Episode Ten

The Timeless Chinball


Quote
3m 49s

Graham: Down you come. That's it. Yaz, come on.

4m 17s

Graham: He's right and I've been thinking about that. I've got an idea. It's a bit of a mad one, quite dangerous and it might not work, but we've got form with plans like that, ain't we, Yaz?
Yaz: Yeah, our speciality. How dangerous?
Graham: We use their armour so they don't notice us. That way, we can move around and get off the ship.
Yaz: So you want us to disguise ourselves as Cybermen?

10m 14s

Yaz: All right?
Graham: Yeah, yeah. You?
Yaz: Yeah.
Graham: Listen, Yaz, um, if we don't get out of this...
Yaz: We will get out of this.
Graham: Yeah, well, I know, but I'm just saying, if we don't i want you to know I - I think you're such an impressive young woman. Never thrown by anything. Always fighting.
Yaz: Thanks.
Graham: You said to the Doc that you thought she was the best person you'd ever met. You know what, Yaz? I think you are. You ain't got a time machine or a sonic, but you're never afraid and you're never beaten. I'm going to sound like a, like a proper old man, but you're doing your family proud, Yaz. You really are. In fact, you're doing the whole human race proud.S-Sorry. I haven't offended you, have I?
Yaz: It's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me.
Graham: Oh.
Yaz: You're not such a bad human yourself either.
Graham: Not su--? Is that it? I've just said all them lovely things about you, and all you give me is "You're not such a bad human"?
Yaz: Mate, I'm from Yorkshire, that's a love letter.

31m 51s

Graham: Yaz, I can't get this hat off.

44m 15s

Graham: We're never going to find her in this lot.
Yaz: Yeah, we are. We're going to find her and we're going to rescue her. She's done it for us enough times. Now it's our turn.

49m 2s

Graham: Yaz, is she all right?

So there we go. The end of series two and we have only the second (or perhaps third if I'm being generous) character moment between Graham and Yaz.

Oh, and just to end on a highnote, I usually transcribe these from downloads with subtitles and just as the explosion goes off right at the end the Master yells something. I completely missed it on broadcast.

Quote
The Master: All of you, through here! Now!

That can mean only one thing. Those wanky Cyber-Time Lords will return. I suppose it's obvious in retrospect, those costumes must have cost a bit.

I watched the finale and enjoyed it.

*hides*

Replies From View

  • Rubbing linseed oil into the school cormorant.
  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Gargoyles have milk bags.
I watched the finale and enjoyed it.

What for

Blinder Data

  • Use your library
I watched the finale and enjoyed it.

*hides*

EXPLAIN YOURSELF! NOW!!!

kidsick5000

  • Gotta be groovy for the moovy
If Bradley Walsh is leaving, does that mean he’s exhausted ways to ask: What’s that about Doc?
While sharing the line with the other companions.

kidsick5000

  • Gotta be groovy for the moovy
That's an excellent and thought-provoking read.  Thank you.

Also asks the key question: so did The Master kill everyone on Gallifrey a minimum of 12 times?

The Doctor escapes the Matrix, relive the moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpYVDamtymI

It's so fucking bad. First, you've the Doctor needing to be told to escape because she's so ineffectual as to have not thought of it. Then you've got to feel for Jodie Whittaker who has to stand wittering boring rubbish to herself in an empty greenscreened room for what feels like hours. Give her an award for getting through that. And then finally, the double whammy:

The plan: overload a repository of a whole society's history (including your own) by having a history (just your own). Logic at its finest.
The execution: touch your head and play the fucking series theme tune. It's literally laughable.

Thomas

  • well they do all sixteen dances.
The plan: overload a repository of a whole society's history (including your own) by having a history (just your own). Logic at its finest.

In yet another borrowed moment, I think Chibnall was going for the bit where the Doctor overloads the star with his memories in The Rings of Chaka Khan.

I didn't care too much for the big speech at the time (re-watching it now for the first time, I note the song's melody is reused during his regeneration. Weep!), but at least Matt was given something to act.

Johnny Yesno

  • Perfume of a critic's burning flesh
    • Lines Horizontal
In yet another borrowed moment, I think Chibnall was going for the bit where the Doctor overloads the star with his memories in The Rings of Chaka Khan.

I didn't care too much for the big speech at the time (re-watching it now for the first time, I note the song's melody is reused during his regeneration. Weep!), but at least Matt was given something to act.

Haha! Oof! That was bad.

Johnny Yesno

  • Perfume of a critic's burning flesh
    • Lines Horizontal
So, what the hell was that Ireland business all about?

In yet another borrowed moment, I think Chibnall was going for the bit where the Doctor overloads the star with his memories in The Rings of Chaka Khan.

I didn't care too much for the big speech at the time (re-watching it now for the first time, I note the song's melody is reused during his regeneration. Weep!), but at least Matt was given something to act.

Yes, it is that, I should've said. Can't remember if I caught it on first watch, but rewatching it it's very much that.

Except shit, obviously. Except incredibly, startling shit. Watching the two side by side, fuck me. Matt Smith. What a performance. What a lovely bit of writing. Pain, and anger, and triumph. The character's going through the ringer, weary yet powerful, fucked up but heroic. What a brilliantly constructed scene, that music working beautifully, the visuals both a bit goofy and really impressive, evocative stuff. I always liked that moment.

Then Jodie. Stood in a grey room of nothing created in Windows 95. Going through no emotions, no pain, no anything, just reading out a list of plot[1]. Finally playing out the theme tune. Shite.

 1. Plot that doesn't make even basic logical sense. Akhatahn is an alien used to feeding on the memories of sacrificed mortals, being hit by the thump of hundreds of years of a Time Lord's lives that includes a reality-breaking Time War. The latter is bigger than the former. Great. The Matrix, as shown, knew more of The Doctor's lives than The Doctor, plus the entirety of every other Time Lord's lives. The Doctor's memory is much smaller. What?

Replies From View

  • Rubbing linseed oil into the school cormorant.
  • Golden Member
  • *****
  • Gargoyles have milk bags.
Maybe it was overloaded because it was being fed so much information it already had.  "130t678.jpg already exists.  Overwrite?  Yes/No"

"r9quunookp1.jpg already exists.  Overwrite?  Yes/No"

"aokg999.jpg already exists.  Overwrite?  Yes/No"

"sgfpk022.jpg already exists.  Overwrite?  Yes/No"

"cpaf0ig00.jpg already exists.  Overwrite?  Yes/No"

"ojcoja0021.jpg already exists.  Overwrite?  Yes/No"

"r9quunookp1.jpg already exists.  Overwrite?  Yes/No"



For every single file.

EXPLAIN YOURSELF! NOW!!!

I just found it enjoyable. I don't think there needs to be 3 companions (i did wonder if whats-her-name from Bone Kickers and the other bloke were being set up as potential future companions in case someone decides to leave) and i think this Timeless Child stuff is going to be reset at some point.

Norton Canes

  • Watching the Wednesday wheel
In yet another borrowed moment, I think Chibnall was going for the bit where the Doctor overloads the star with his memories in The Rings of Chaka Khan

Also the bit in Forest Of The Dead where he scares the Vashta Nerada off by getting them to look at all the other adversaries he's beaten. Also the bit in The Eleventh Hour where he scares the Atraxi off by getting them to look at all the other adversaries he's beaten.

Thomas

  • well they do all sixteen dances.
Yes, to be fair to Chibs, 57 years into the show, and 15 years into NuWho, many plot resolutions are going to feel like retreads. But the Companions Most Wanted scene in Spyfall was essentially a remake of same sequence in The Sound of Drums. It was so egregious that the many other derivative beats in series 12 really stand out, especially as almost all of them relate to series 3. 'The Boundary' is Utopia, the Master is reset to John Simm, Gallifrey is destroyed, you've got yer fob watch fire alarm, and several other scenes and elements I can't will myself to recall.

Now, if Chibnall had gone all out and titled his finale The First of the Time Lords, I might have at least admired the ballsiness. And I do like that he brought tissue compression back.

My favourite bit is where instead of thinking quickly on her feet like previous Doctors and finding a clever way to fix things without doing a genocide (I don't know, you're on Gallifrey, there's probably a way to find a nearby TARDIS and reverse the polarity of the temporal manipulator field so that it operates outside of it then point it at the Cyberlords to reverse time in a small pocket of space and revert them back to before they were killed and cybered) instead she leaves Obi Wan to blow things up and runs away.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tARPTpvHrsc

5 good speeches.  Can you imagine 13 trying to do a Big Doctor Speech?  She'd do this breathless babbling to herself for 2 minutes while managing to say nothing of interest.
"Well... let me tell you this.... oh gosh what was I going to tell you again nnnnggggh it was right on my brains... or is it brain... do I have one brain or two?  I'm not sure.  But anyway yes!  Right!  You were going to tell them, what was I going to tell them, something about the rules?  AH!  Of course! Come on Doctor you've got this!" etc

Thomas

  • well they do all sixteen dances.
My favourite bit is where instead of thinking quickly on her feet like previous Doctors and finding a clever way to fix things without doing a genocide (I don't know, you're on Gallifrey, there's probably a way to find a nearby TARDIS and reverse the polarity of the temporal manipulator field so that it operates outside of it then point it at the Cyberlords to reverse time in a small pocket of space and revert them back to before they were killed and cybered) instead she leaves Obi Wan to blow things up and runs away.

There could have been an interesting opportunity for a solution based on their new ability to regenerate. Perhaps the Doctor could have triggered their regeneration in perpetuity, leaving them glowing and useless forever, collapsing and regenerating on repeat. Someone in the last thread linked to a fan's alternative ending in which the Doctor appeals to that part of the Timeless Child inherent in the CyberLords (like the Daleks with their shred of mercy in The Witch's Familiar), prompting their pacifism and refusal to obey the Master.

Something silly like that, without invoking yet another genocide dilemma (which the Doctor, this time, allows to proceed, essentially pushing the button by proxy).

I know the show is full of horrific ideas, some of them wonderful and creative, but here the Master single-handedly murdered all the Time Lords, leaving their corpses in storage for the Doctor (via Old Man) to totally disintegrate. Are all the lads from The Day of the Doctor dead now? The villagers and Rassilon-deserters from Hell Bent?

The Doctor escapes the Matrix, relive the moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpYVDamtymI

It's so fucking bad. First, you've the Doctor needing to be told to escape because she's so ineffectual as to have not thought of it. Then you've got to feel for Jodie Whittaker who has to stand wittering boring rubbish to herself in an empty greenscreened room for what feels like hours. Give her an award for getting through that. And then finally, the double whammy:

The plan: overload a repository of a whole society's history (including your own) by having a history (just your own). Logic at its finest.
The execution: touch your head and play the fucking series theme tune. It's literally laughable.

The only good thing about that sequence is that Chibnall resisted the temptation to slip himself in amongst the Doctor's past generations.

daf

  • 'Absolutely Useless' say Overlanders

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