Doctor Who Series 12B: The Timeless Chibnall (Xmas special & pre-Series 13 chat)

[pigamus]

Jack Robertson, Jack Donaghy - I'm thinking it's the fake Trump

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

Jack Robertson, Jack Donaghy - I'm thinking it's the fake Trump

Spoiler alert

It is, but I had to Google him first.

[close]

[Replies From View]

Confirmed:  'Revolution of the Daleks' will see the return of Jack Robertson

Anyone - without Googling?

I don't know who Jack Nicholson is, sorry


The title 'Revolution of the Daleks' just makes me imagine them standing still with their heads fiercely spinning around and around.

Maybe a little digital spinometer on the side, clocking up all the revolutions while Davros loudly bellows them across the tennis court, which is where they all are.

[Mister Six]

Feel like the golden age of New Who was Series 1 to 6. 7 starts off well and then is patchy. Once Clara finally fucks off and Moffat gets some time off from Sherlock then Series 10 is properly good.

Golden Age was 3-6, I'd say. Series 2 was often piss-awful, although it's probably aged like fine wine compared to Chibnall's dribblings. I do generally rate 8-10, but the wobbling tone belies a wavering commitment backstage.

Somewhere in a good timeline, Bernie Sanders won the 2016 election, and the next year saw the introduction of Bill Potts, who would stick around for a total of three seasons with Capaldi.[nb]In the best timeline she made her debut ages before, because they managed to pump out 14 episodes a year with no gaps or split seasons.[/nb]

I have a pal who is a lifelong Who fan and  stopped watching as soon as Chibnall took over. Like he hasn't even watched an episode of it under Chibnall. That's how poorly he thinks of him.

He's a fucksight smarter than us, then. Although I consider Who these days as the gruel I have to eat before I can enjoy the Black Forest gateaux of this thread.

[Mister Six]

Also, I dunno if this got posted on here (or even if I posted it and forgot), but comic book author and Happy/Brave New World showrunner Grant Morrison wants to do (at least) a season of Doctor Who:

"And in more recent times, I've always loved Doctor Who, and I particularly loved when Steven Moffat was writing Doctor Who," Morrison continues. "Because again, he's a very meticulous writer who constructs these beautiful puzzle boxes of plot. More recently, I really loved Michaela Coel's I May Destroy You, which to me was up there with Potter as some of the best stuff I think I've ever seen in television for a long, long time."

How come no one has asked Morrison to write an episode of Doctor Who, given his history of inventive storytelling with big ideas? "Well, it kind of did happen. I did pitch a couple, but it didn't work out. One of these days, I've got a whole season worked out, so I'm sure it'll happen eventually."

Morrison actually did some Sixth and Seventh Doctor comics back in the day, but for those of you unfamiliar with their (Morrison came out as non-binary recently)  more recent work, they hit all the sweet spots for good Who: horrific (Nameless), imaginative (All-Star Superman), mind-bending (Annihilator), action-packed (We3), warmly human (Klaus) and all of the above in one (The Invisibles). They also do some really fun stuff with time and the perception of time in various comics.

The only reason I wouldn't want them to replace Chibnall is they're working on an Invisibles TV show and I don't want that to get derailed. Although at this rate I imagine the earliest Chibbers will leave us in peace is after the 60th anniversary in 2023, so there's time yet.

[Wentworth Smith]

I would kill Catalogue Trousers Chibnall sex doll for a Morrison season or two of Doctor Who. It might well be awful, his TV stuff hasn't set the world alight, (Happy! had its moments but Brave New World was dull beyond belief), but it would likely be ambitious and full of strange worlds and creatures.

[Mister Six]

I honestly can't think of a better marriage of creative mind and creative subject.

Then again, I said that about Peter Milligan and Hellblazer, and look how that turned out.

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The only reason I wouldn't want them to replace Chibnall is they're working on an Invisibles TV show and I don't want that to get derailed. Although at this rate I imagine the earliest Chibbers will leave us in peace is after the 60th anniversary in 2023, so there's time yet.

I'd be happier to go without Doctor Who for five or more years than to have the gap between now and a good showrunner filled with more Chibnall series.

In fact I'm not sure I'll be watching anymore until Chibnall has left, so it's roughly the same thing.  It's just that the longer he stays, the more damage will be done that then has to be fixed by the next showrunner.  Would be much better just to get rid of Chibnall now and not have more and more Timeless Child shits in the pot.

[Thomas]

Trailer. New Year's Day. They look better in action. Overt shades of

Spoiler alert

the Ironsides

[close]

.

[Norton Canes]

Jodie looks fantastic. I assume she's wearing

Spoiler alert

prison fatigues

[close]

but it would be great if her costume could be something that muted. Also, the Daleks look good with the red glowing through. Maybe I should just watch it with the sound down. Hey, shame there's no option to watch it with recorded sound, music and audio effects, but not the dialogue.

Overall feeling more optimistic about that than I probably should. Come on, Chris. Just keep it simple.

[Spoon of Ploff]

Trailer. New Year's Day. They look better in action. Overt shades of

Spoiler alert

the Ironsides

[close]

.

Ahhh, so it looks like those semi skimmed things are

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reverse engineered by human people

[close]

, with

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full cream sized daleks showing

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up

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later

[close]

. I feel a little better about things... but I've been burnt by hope before.

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Daleks without their tanks are now facehugger-type things, I notice.

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with

Spoiler alert

full cream sized daleks showing

[close]

up

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later

[close]

.

You got that from the trailer?  I didn't see them. 

Spoiler alert

(Did you mean the RTD ones?  I didn't see them.)

[close]

[Thomas]

Overall feeling more optimistic about that than I probably should. Come on, Chris. Just keep it simple.

The special begins with Graham waking up. Yaz and Ryan stand over him.

'You alright, Graham?'
'Yeah, why, what's wrong me old pals me old mateys?'
'You were murmuring something about "the Timeless Child". What's that?'
'I must've been dreaming.'
'Yes, you must've been dreaming.'

It is never specified how much of series 12 was a dream. It is never explored. When we next see Gallifrey, it is fine.

[Replies From View]

when we next see the Master, his cock is out


phew!! thinks the Doctor

[Catalogue Trousers]

Daleks without their tanks are now facehugger-type things, I notice.

They've been that way for a long while now. For a blatant facehugger Dalek, check out Davison's Resurrection Of The Daleks.

[Spoon of Ploff]

You got that from the trailer?  I didn't see them. 

Spoiler alert

(Did you mean the RTD ones?  I didn't see them.)

[close]

I've watched it a couple times more and now I am in doubt.

Spoiler alert

I thought the flying ones with the red on them looked redesigned but normal sized.

[close]

[Kelvin]

The more muted colours and realistic lighting continue to make the more fantastical and kitschy elements - like the Daleks and their Saucers - look more silly, rather than cooler. I continue to believe this is a big part of why all the jokes, even the passable ones, continue to fall so flat. The tone of the writing and the performances do not match the tone and direction of the aesthetic.

[Thomas]

The more muted colours and realistic lighting continue to make the more fantastical and kitschy elements - like the Daleks and their Saucers - look more silly, rather than cooler. I continue to believe this is a big part of why all the jokes, even the passable ones, continue to fall so flat. The tone of the writing and the performances do not match the tone and direction of the aesthetic.

I've never attacked any element of the Chib era for the sake of it, or out of whininess - I've hated bits of every series, after all - but there are so many problems working together that I have little positive to say. I liked Alan Cumming as King James.

One of my issues from the off was the new aesthetic you identify. It's one of the reasons I wasn't as optimistic about Jodie's first episode as many others were, and we've enjoyed a persistent overdose of orange-and-teal ever since. When I go back and watch something from series 1-10, my retinal cones and rods are dazzled by the spectrum of colours on display, the varied boldness and brightness, the feel of openness. Series 11 and 12 have the visual grammar of a police procedural.

[Wentworth Smith]

The special begins with Graham waking up. Yaz and Ryan stand over him.

'You alright, Graham?'
'Yeah, why, what's wrong me old pals me old mateys?'
'You were murmuring something about "the Timeless Child". What's that?'
'I must've been dreaming.'
'Yes, you must've been dreaming.'

It is never specified how much of series 12 was a dream. It is never explored. When we next see Gallifrey, it is fine.

Season arc: why are they standing over him as he sleeps? WHY?!

[pigamus]

It looks like another episode that Jodie isn't even really in.

[Natnar]

Nearly had a heart attack when i noticed Doctor Who & Clara are both trending on twitter at the same time..

[Alberon]

It looks like another episode that Jodie isn't even really in.

Yeah, seems like another like The Christmas Invasion. Everything will get worse through the episode until the Doctor pops up at the end.

There's a shot of a suspiciously old-school Tardis there. Is that Jack's or is one of the pre-Hartnell Doctors there?

[Kelvin]

Series 11 and 12 have the visual grammar of a police procedural.

I think more pertinently, they have the visual grammer of a Young Adults fantasy-drama from about 10 years ago; think a BBC3 series about teen vampires. That's what I think Chibnall is aiming for; a grittier, slightly more grown up take on Who. Instead, he's suffocated the material without pitching the writing any older.     

[Thomas]

There's a shot of a suspiciously old-school Tardis there. Is that Jack's or is one of the pre-Hartnell Doctors there?

I think it's the TARDIS that dropped them off on Earth after that old bloke wiped out all life on Gallifrey.[nb]in a rushed, two-minute reverse tribute to The Day of the Doctor and the seven series of backstory leading up to it.[/nb] Think it disguised itself as a detached house.

[Alberon]

Oh yeah, totally forgotten about that.

[Deanjam]

Daleks without their tanks are now facehugger-type things, I notice.

Someone watched Aliens vs Predator and thought the slow motion leaping facehuggers looked cool.

Anyway, nothing to get excited about in that trailer. Not a single memorable line of dialogue, or hint at a cool mystery, and the same turgid delivery of lines. Daleks created by humans. Daleks attacking apathetic humans in the street. Pompous dialogue re how special it is to be chosen to travel with the Doctor. Captain Jack being shallow. Seen it all before kiddos.

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The tone of the writing and the performances do not match the tone and direction of the aesthetic.

Chibnall?

Yes?

Chibnall could you.... please try to make eye-contact when I speak to you

Ah yeah sure.

....you still aren't doing it.

Sorry.

...and you still aren't.

[chibnall tries to do it]

Okay so Chibnall what we've noticed is that you have opted, by and large, for a "shit" tone when it comes to writing and performances, while other people in the production team are basically bringing.... well.... talent to things like the cinematography and music and so on.  And we're left with a kind of compromise.  An uncomfortable hybrid of shit and not-shit.

Well I came up with regrading everything into teal and orange, so.

Yes and once again that's a kind of subtraction, you see.  It's a little dollop of shit in the broth.

So you are saying...

.....exactly.

You're saying that to repair the uncomfortable hybrid I need to insist on everything being shit?

[commissionaire does face]

Well it will mean spreading myself verrrry thinly to get my finger into every pie, but I'll see what I can do sir!

[chibnall immediately strolls out of the office, whistling]

[Thomas]

I just keep thinking about Chibnall's big decisions, and the weightless rush with which he implemented them. Compare Gallifrey's sudden redestruction to the stories told between series 1 and 9, with the big event of the fiftieth in the middle.

There was more emotional weight and consequence to Jack being the Face of Boe than there was to the reveal of Ruth and the Timeless Child.

The Thirteenth Doctor shrugged off the mystery of Ruth while they were still standing in the same room. Neither of them bothered to ask any questions. Then the big moral of the series finale was 'none of this changes you'. Thing is, it hadn't at all threatened to - at all. The Master did a slideshow and the Doctor did a classic clips montage. Over series 11 and 12 we had no sense of the Doctor connecting or grappling with her identity. There have been filler episodes with more weight than all of Chibnall's big plot decisions.

[Deanjam]

There was more emotional weight to Matt's fez getting shot than Chibnall's story arc.