Doctor Who Series 12B: The Timeless Chibnall (Xmas special & pre-Series 13 chat)

[daf]

(I really wish modern Who would use more of the sound effect than they do.  I love it so much.)

Still leaving the handbrake on!

[Replies From View]

I post about Who in one other place and it is the polar opposite to here. People taking it for what it is and taking the positives from it.

I do take the show for what it is, and can't see any positives in it.

It's not needless negativity; Chibnall's version of the show genuinely affronts me on a deep level with how shit it is, and when I am reminded that he is still the showrunner I need to come here and vent sometimes to save my sanity.

[Replies From View]

But I am keen to learn your take on it so please don't feel suppressed.  I'd be more interested in the positive things you see in the show though, rather than a complaint that people should be dishonestly positive.

[Lungpuddle]

I don't see Malcy complaining that people should be "dishonestly positive" so you must be talking about my really liking Early Man. I do really like it! It's not Netflix too, so I don't have to wait until Christmas Day!

Although I am a big Moffat-Who fan and really enjoyed a lot of what he did, so I'm not really agreeing with Malcy on what good Doctor Who is.

[Replies From View]

I don't see Malcy complaining that people should be "dishonestly positive"

Feels like that:

I dunno, just really fed up with the constant misery and negativity in this thread. I post about Who in one other place and it is the polar opposite to here. People taking it for what it is and taking the positives from it.

This thread is getting more and more like a reject from that fucking awful Gallifrey Base or whatever it is these days.

I mean people without positivity could stop posting I suppose, but then you would have an empty thread apart from the occasional link.

And, I'll add:  I still don't know what is supposedly good about this era of Doctor Who.  I did ask earlier in the thread, as well.

[daf]

OK, here's a few positive things for me from the last two series :

- Jodie in Capaldi's costume
- Bradley Walsh saying "Doc"
- Doctor Ruth / Dr Ruth's TARDIS
- lovely lovely Historicals (Witchfinders, Nicholas Tesla & Villa Diodati) *
- Jodie's "scrunchie face"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* and I'd be even more positive if they didn't feel the need to shoehorn an improbable alien, space monster or Time-Fonz into every one - the Doctor's already an alien, and time travel ticks the sci-fi box - so there's no need!)

[Thomas]

I'm with Replies on this one. As Malcy says, the show's been back for 15 years - and I've more or less loved it, on and off, that whole time. But, according to my critical and entertainable faculties, Doctor Who has experienced a sudden downturn. This is the only place I discuss the show, so I thought it'd be interesting to try and identify why. I'm never 'miserable' or 'negative' for the sake of it. I've watched every Chibnall ep out of goodwill, hoping for something positive (and I did end up really enjoying The Haunting of Villa Diodati).

Who fandom is shit.

Think this is a bit unfair, considering that the criticism here is often intelligent and articulate, and ultimately borne from a love for the show. Talulah, for example, would write marvellously about her favourite episodes - even if I frequently disagreed. Some of the people here have loved the show since before I was born - they've done their time, earned the right to gripe for a few paragraphs if they feel the current showrunner is lacking in the emotion/character/themes department.

I don't recall ever seeing any reactionary rubbish on CaB about the Doctor being a woman, or the show being 'too woke' - that stuff is shit.

This thread is getting more and more like a reject from that fucking awful Gallifrey Base or whatever it is these days.

Don't know how to remedy this perception. Only post about the things everybody likes? That'd be a hollow half-discussion, and very short at the moment.

I suppose I could balance it out by naming a few things I disliked about former series:

90% of JNT's decisions
CyberBrig
'Purple, the colour of death'
The faith-resurrected Jesus Doc in The Last of the Time Lords
The Teselecta resolution to series 6
The Ghostbusters bit in Army of Ghosts

I posted critically about some of these at the time, but there were many positive things to say, too. I haven't increased the weight I give to negativity - only lost the positives.

[pigamus]

Yeah, Replies is right and Malcy is wrong, sorry

[Norton Canes]

Positivity:

The (pseudo-) historicals (Rosa, Punjab, Witchfinder, Tesla, Diodati) have been the most consistently good things about Jodie's seasons. Rosa, Punjab and Tesla all contained a real warmth at their core, Alan Cumming lit up The Witchfinders (and indeed the witches, arf) and Diodati in particular I thought was properly fantastic, a story where the many positives far outweighed the few negatives (notwithstanding the poor payoff in the following story). Several of the season 12 stories started promisingly but fell away. And I still stand by the TARDIS sequence at the end of The Ghost Monument, loved that.

Bradley Walsh has been excellent, as has Jodie on the rare occasions she's had a chance to show it.

[Norton Canes]

'Purple, the colour of death'

Mauve? The universally recognised colour for danger.

[The Roofdog]

Positivity:

The (pseudo-) historicals (Rosa, Punjab, Witchfinder, Tesla, Diodati) have been the most consistently good things about Jodie's seasons.

This is my positive thing too, especially given that there were quite a few ropey historicals in the Moffat era and he didn't seem that interested in them.

[Norton Canes]

Also, can I just say, in response to Gallifrey Base getting some stick here - I read/post there a lot and as long as you stay out of threads that are obviously about whether Old or New Testament Who is the best (along with all the political-with-a-small-p baggage that brings), it's a friendly place that's no more plagued by bickering than any other message board I've used (yes, including this one).

I stick mostly to the 'Classic Era' forum and the posts there are generally erudite, informed and polite. Plus, like any board there are numerous other sub-forums about TV, music, books, movies and General Bullshit type stuff that are always worth dipping into.

Not sure why it gets quite such a bad rep.

[Blinder Data]

Fugitive of the Judoon was really exciting to watch, because I had zero idea what was happening or how it would be resolved. The problem is that the arc was never adequately sustained - I just checked and was surprised to see that that was the mid-point of the series! What did Chibbers do to continue the mystery of the extra Doctor until the awful disappointment of the finale? I can't remember anything of note.

I would love to be more positive about Who but it's impossible when it's just plain bad. If it was well-executed in its badness then that would be OK, as RTD's and Moffat's runs were on occasion. But when the plotting, dialogue, characters and some performances are simply substandard for a TV series of Doctor Who's status and scope, it cannot remain unmentioned.

[Thomas]

Fugitive of the Judoon was really exciting to watch, because I had zero idea what was happening or how it would be resolved. The problem is that the arc was never adequately sustained - I just checked and was surprised to see that that was the mid-point of the series! What did Chibbers do to continue the mystery of the extra Doctor until the awful disappointment of the finale? I can't remember anything of note.

Mmm, this is what I mean. Even though I came away from The Wedding of River Song disappointed, the mystery of the Doctor's death recurred throughout series 6, informing the tone and the themes of the episodes. The Ganger two-parter was built around it. We had the mid-series reveal that Amy herself was a Ganger. Let's Kill Hitler discussed the Doctor's death (and introduced the device by which it would be prevented). In Closing Time, the Doctor was conscious of moving toward his doom. Death, dishonesty, and secrecy were major elements of the series. In one episode (The Girl Who Waited), the Doctor coldly betrays the aged Amy, and in the next (The God Complex) he has to eradicate her faith in him to save her life. And in there we get the River Song reveal, and the introduction of the Silence and the first suggestion of their (Trenzalorian) war against the Doctor. It was elegantly plotted stuff, even if it wasn't all brilliant.

Remember when people criticised Moffat for the lack of emotional hangover when baby River was taken from the Ponds? Chibnall's characterisation is that sort of thing amplified across all plot points.

There have been good moments of the Chibnall era, but they tend to occur in isolation, as snippets and images. I'll rewatch Fugitive of the Judoon soon with my positivity hat on. I like the RuthDoctor's orange shirt.

[Norton Canes]

In its defence (god this makes me feel dirty) I think Fugitive was only supposed to a one-off appetite-whetter (or a put-you-off-the-show-altogetherer, YMMV) rather than the start of a sequential-story arc.

[daf]

Also, can I just say, in response to Gallifrey Base getting some stick here -
(. . . )
Not sure why it gets quite such a bad rep.

Yeah, I dip in there now and again, and it seems fine. They closed down a previous version of the site called Outpost Gallifrey, when the squabbling got out of hand - which is probably what Malcy was thinking of.

[A Hat Like That]

Fugitive of the Judoon was really exciting to watch, because I had zero idea what was happening or how it would be resolved. The problem is that the arc was never adequately sustained - I just checked and was surprised to see that that was the mid-point of the series! What did Chibbers do to continue the mystery of the extra Doctor until the awful disappointment of the finale? I can't remember anything of note.

I would love to be more positive about Who but it's impossible when it's just plain bad. If it was well-executed in its badness then that would be OK, as RTD's and Moffat's runs were on occasion. But when the plotting, dialogue, characters and some performances are simply substandard for a TV series of Doctor Who's status and scope, it cannot remain unmentioned.

Going further, the other great mystery in the season was our lad, the Irish policeman, in the penultimate episode. Resolved, in a single line of dialogue, in the next episode.

Cheers!

[Replies From View]

In its defence (god this makes me feel dirty) I think Fugitive was only supposed to a one-off appetite-whetter (or a put-you-off-the-show-altogetherer, YMMV) rather than the start of a sequential-story arc.

What follows needn't be sequential, just a satisfying and natural continuation.

The Doctor meets Ruth Doctor and couldn't give less of a fuck.  Even on a basic character response level it makes no sense, unless secretly the intention is to communicate that the Doctor actually doesn't care, but the writing doesn't commit to that either.  It's just a little fluff of nothing.  It all has the vibe of a first draft that has somehow been filmed by mistake.  A first draft where the writer hasn't yet worked out what matters because the later story pieces haven't come together yet.  And the actors haven't been told either so they're acting without any sense of their own motivations.

If the given excuse is that it's only meant to whet the appetite then I'm sorry it has to be mysterious and exciting at the very least.  Nothing about what ended up on screen was written or directed to have an exciting impact.  It was very very badly built up and brushed away, and nothing about any of the ideas felt fresh or timely.  If anything I was just thinking "for fuck's sake, imagine if Chibnall's shitty imagination was really offering up another incarnation of the Doctor right now, and this wasn't admittedly a very tedious red herring" - and then it came true.

[Phil_A]

Also, can I just say, in response to Gallifrey Base getting some stick here - I read/post there a lot and as long as you stay out of threads that are obviously about whether Old or New Testament Who is the best (along with all the political-with-a-small-p baggage that brings), it's a friendly place that's no more plagued by bickering than any other message board I've used (yes, including this one).

I stick mostly to the 'Classic Era' forum and the posts there are generally erudite, informed and polite. Plus, like any board there are numerous other sub-forums about TV, music, books, movies and General Bullshit type stuff that are always worth dipping into.

Not sure why it gets quite such a bad rep.

Yeah, I dip in there now and again, and it seems fine. They closed down a previous version of the site called Outpost Gallifrey, when the squabbling got out of hand - which is probably what Malcy was thinking of.

Yeah, from memory, I think things used to be a bit more fractious on the old board back at the time of the series relaunch, when the divide between old and new series fans was much starker. Plus you had the likes of Jon Blum acting as self-appointed cheerleader and shouting down any criticism of the new show.

[Mister Six]

I know it is frustrating to read a lot of people saying the show is shit now, but the show is shit now - objectively so, I believe - so tough luck, basically.

That said, I'm going to dredge up suppressed memories of the last couple of seasons and say only nice things about each episode:

The Woman Who Fell to Earth
Best episode Chibnall has ever written. Solidly B+ level, even if it were in an RTD or Moffat season. Good intros to all characters, great FX, the anamorphic cameras are used well, "Tim Shaw" is a good gag and a nicely horrible villain, the robot thing looks like something out of Prey and that makes me happy, Capaldi's fucked up costume really suits Jodie, it all hangs together really well.

The Ghost Monument
Still really love the title; again, FX work is sterling (especially the crashing spaceships); the line "this planet was made cruel" is fantastically evocative; the basic concept is good.

Rosa
Good effort at using a historical to teach kids rather than to add garnish onto a daft story about aliens; the "I'm not Banksy - or am I?" line is very funny; giving the team a mission other than "save everyone from the big monsters" is a nice change; couple of nice character bits for Yaz and Ryan; Racist Time Fonz as a malevolent Meddling Monk type figure is a good idea.

Arachnids in the UK
The spider effects are good; I always appreciate a Who story with super-science but no alien villains/monsters and even more so when it reminds me of The Green Death.

The Tsuranga Conundrum
The cute alien is very fun.

Demons of the Punjab
Love that they're covering the partition of India and how colonialism fucked up millions of lives; good character work all round; nice to see Yaz being given a bit to do; the alien concept is lovely; solid human drama; one of the best of the season.

Kerblam!
A really good fun romp, for the most part.

The Witchfinders
Jodie's Doc is proactive and heroic throughout; Cummings' King James is tons of fun and exactly the kind of RTD throwback campy, charismatic performance this show needs every now and again; the villains are conceptually interesting; the setting is new to Who (I think?); the whole thing hangs together well.

It Takes You Away
Episode of the season, would be a stand-out in any of the RTD/Moffat years; genuinely great sci-fi concept of a living universe feeding off people's memories/imaginations (but I would say that, since I came up with a similar one a few years back); fantastic visuals; some fun Graham/Ryan scenes; packed with good ideas even beyond the overarching concept; The Actor Kevin Eldon.

The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos
Some good FX; I still like how much of a cunt Tim Shaw is.

Resolution
I like the idea of the parasite Dalek, and the victim's plight is well sketched; Trump withdrawing funding from UNIT leading to it being put on ice is genuinely really funny, good satire and clever world building; ramshackle Dalek suit looks pretty good.

Skyfall, Part 1
This first part is a creditable attempt at a Moffat-style whiz-bang romp; Lenny Henry is good; Sacha Dhawan is great.

Skyfall, Part 2
Dhawan gets even more screentime, which can only be a good thing; the aliens being weird ultradimensional nerve-strand things that only look human when pushing through into our dimension is cool.

Orphan 55
The first 10 minutes are genuinely really funny and well-written.

Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror
Great fun, maybe the best episode of the season; guy playing Tesla is spookily well cast; having Edison's big moment still hinge on him being a lying cunt who wants to destroy Tesla is great; implied criticism of corporate cunts appreciated; big spider-monsters look ace; it's Rani from The Sarah Jane Adventures!

Fugitive of the Judoon
Chibnall's most successful episode after The Woman Who Fell to Earth; genuinely unpredictable; the Jack cameo is a clever bit of misdirection; unearthing the TARDIS is proper goosebump thrill territory; Jo Martin is great as The Doctor.

Praexus
Probably the best use of the big cast, with all the regulars getting something to do; the plastic angle is great - the educational episodes have done a good job of finding little-covered areas to explore; plenty of good ideas like the underwater plastic base, the bizarre death sequences, the broad environmental message; whole thing mostly well resolved.

Can You Hear Me?
Good villains; nice FX; lovely gross finger bits; the overall message is sound; nice of them to point out that Syria (and the Middle East in general) haven't always been mangled by war, Western Meddling and violent extremism.

The Haunting of Villa Diodati
One of the best of the season; the ghosts, "ghosts" and twisty-turny house are all well deployed; love that they portray Byron as a cowardly, whiny little wank rather than a suave Byronic hero; first appearance of CyberCunt, one of the most successful Who villains.

Ascension of the Cybermen
Some good effects.

The Timeless Children
CyberCunt + Dhawan's Master mean a double dose of great baddies; a TARDIS disguised as a house is exaclty the sort of thing you should have kids fantasising about when they walk to school; I love how florid the design of the Cyber Time Lords is - death by chintz!

[Deanjam]

Plus you had the likes of Jon Blum acting as self-appointed cheerleader and shouting down any criticism of the new show.

Cheers. John Blum.

[pigamus]

Ascension of the Cybermen
Some good effects.

Ha ha. This reminds me of my favourite putdown, Philip Larkin on John Coltrane: "Some of it must have been quite hard to do."

[Ambient Sheep]

^ :-)

Anyway, well done, Mister Six, you did better than I could!  Some very valid points there, too, can't disagree with any of them, I think.

[Norton Canes]

Cheers. John Blum.

Laughed

[Tombola]

Cheers. John Blum.

You forgot the paragraphs packed with AI figures and exclamation marks!

Cheers, Tombola

[Replies From View]

Kerblam!
A really good fun romp, for the most part.

*double-checks dictionary definition of 'fun'*

[Mister Six]

Yeah maybe I'm overstating it. The bits with Yaz and Ryan gadding about on conveyor belts and people being stalked by spooky robots were entertaining enough. I think it would have been an okayish middling episode if the mental Guardian centrist ending hadn't driven the whole thing off a fucking cliff.

I'm starting to think my visceral hatred for TerrorCorbyn and The Doctor's guff about always trusting the system because it's people that are the problem - surely the most undoctory she's ever been? - have given me an unrealistically favourable view of the preceding 40 minutes by comparison.

^ :-)

Anyway, well done, Mister Six, you did better than I could!  Some very valid points there, too, can't disagree with any of them, I think.

Aw, thanks. It was a struggle at times, to be honest.

[Norton Canes]

The Ghost Monument
Still really love the title; again, FX work is sterling (especially the crashing spaceships); the line "this planet was made cruel" is fantastically evocative; the basic concept is good

I could also add that the line "Ladders... why does it always have to be ladders?" is funny

[Thomas]

I'm starting to think my visceral hatred for TerrorCorbyn and The Doctor's guff about always trusting the system because it's people that are the problem - surely the most undoctory she's ever been? - have given me an unrealistically favourable view of the preceding 40 minutes by comparison.

It certainly jars coming one series after literally 'fighting the suits' and happily helping to end 'corporate dominance in space' in Oxygen:

Capitalism in space. If we want to keep breathing, we have exactly one option. Buy the merchandise. [...] They're not your rescuers. They're your replacements. The end point of capitalism. A bottom line where human life has no value at all. We're fighting an algorithm, a spreadsheet. Like every worker, everywhere, we're fighting the suits.

[...]

Corporate dominance in space is history, and that about wraps it for capitalism. Then the human race finds a whole new mistake. But that's another story.

(to TerrorCorbyn) You kill a load of customers at Kerblam, let the systems take the fall for it, erode people's trust in automation, make people angry. [...] The systems aren't the problem. How people use and exploit the system, that's the problem. People like you.

[frajer]

(to TerrorCorbyn) You kill a load of customers at Kerblam, let the systems take the fall for it, erode people's trust in automation, make people angry. [...] The systems aren't the problem. How people use and exploit the system, that's the problem. People like you.

Ugh. I watched it at the time but managed to forget that. Don't think even Pertwee's "drinking with oldboys at the club" Doctor would have said something so establishment.