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March 29, 2024, 03:04:24 PM

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Doctor Who Series 12B: The Timeless Chibnall (Xmas special & pre-Series 13 chat)

Started by Blinder Data, March 03, 2020, 03:28:32 PM

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mjwilson

I actually think it might not be. It's definitely got the only interesting moment that Whittaker's Doctor has ever had (writing "lol the fucker's already dead" on the wall).

Kelvin

I reckon the Cyber Man / Mary Shelley one is the best, and one of about three I'd consider "good", as opposed to boring, adequate or terrible. It's also, not coincidently, one of the very few episodes where the Doctor emphasises how alien she is compared to the companions.   

CyberShelley one is absolutely demented morally,  even by Whitaker-era standards."what say when put old writer characters in who script," showrunner Chibnall hunt-and-pecks into that RTD search engine, and it comes up "WRITER IMPORTANT IF REMEMBERED." So he grabs the commissioned script and rewrites it[nb]presumably. but c'mon[/nb] to say that you should probably allow the entire species a writer belongs to get genocided, if it means people would study their poems in the future if they hadn't been genocided.

Quote from: Replies From View on June 11, 2021, 08:58:47 PM
*hand shoots up*



and it is still shit, sir

I agree with both of you.

But
Imagine RTD doing that central idea? Moffat?

Sigh

Mister Six

No, it's not shit except for the dad getting away with child abuse. Which is quite bad, admittedly.

kidsick5000

After 16 years, old Doctor Who was about to have its (arguably) greatest season with City Of Death, Destiny Of The Daleks etc - and a sizeable chunk of which wouldn't even air  (Shada).

Right now, it feels like it hobbling toward the finish line of the 60 year anniversary for the sake of it, bracing ourselves for another Dimensions in Time.




Mister Six

Fucking Chibnall overseeing the 60th anniversary. Practically a war crime.

kidsick5000

Latest rumours and I did not want reality to take hobbling so seriously.
2022 has only two specials, one of which – regeneration.

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/jodie-whittaker-leaving-doctor-who-2022-specials-newsupdate/

There must be talks going on with streamers. The BBC doesn't want it in its current state. HBO is so desperate for such content it's still trying to rekindle every GoT ember it has.

If not talks with streamers, begging sessions with David Tennant
("You've barely changed David, is it so bad if the 14th Doctor chooses to look like the 10th?")

"The Mirror also noted that the 2022 Doctor Who annual will not have Whittaker on the cover"

While a snub to Jodie Whittaker (who does have a lot of younger fans), this isn't too surprising as the majority of Who spin-off content still focuses on David Tennant, including that impenetrable Time Lord Triumphant event (which I still can't find a clear answer to what the hell it was about).

I dare say that like any scifi/fantasy property is saying at the moment – Doctor Who needs a "Kevin Feige" to oversee every aspect.


Rev+

Does anyone give much of a shit about the 60th really?  The 50th was a big deal, but surely we're talking 75th before we get the bunting out again.

If the rumour about Whittaker's departure is true (the upcoming series, then two specials) then the second special does sound like the place for a send-off.  If Chibnall doesn't fuck off at the same time it'll be meaningless, though, and I'm not convinced he has any intention to shift just yet.  He's got at least one more regeneration in his tenure.  Probably Les Dennis or someone.

Actually...  talking myself into that one.

Mister Six

Quote from: kidsick5000 on June 15, 2021, 03:09:43 AM
There must be talks going on with streamers. The BBC doesn't want it in its current state. HBO is so desperate for such content it's still trying to rekindle every GoT ember it has.

There is not a chance in Hell that the Beeb would give up Doctor Who, not at all.

Surely to God they must be giving Grant Morrison a call though. Two TV shows under Morrison's belt, plus they used to write for the Who comics in the 80s, and they've said they already have a season arc planned out.

Would be mad not to at least make an exploratory phone call.

kidsick5000

Quote from: kidsick5000 on June 15, 2021, 03:09:43 AM
Latest rumours and I did not want reality to take hobbling so seriously.
2022 has only two specials, one of which – regeneration.

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/jodie-whittaker-leaving-doctor-who-2022-specials-newsupdate/

There must be talks going on with streamers. The BBC doesn't want it in its current state. HBO is so desperate for such content it's still trying to rekindle every GoT ember it has.

If not talks with streamers, begging sessions with David Tennant
("You've barely changed David, is it so bad if the 14th Doctor chooses to look like the 10th?")

"The Mirror also noted that the 2022 Doctor Who annual will not have Whittaker on the cover"

While a snub to Jodie Whittaker (who does have a lot of younger fans), this isn't too surprising as the majority of Who spin-off content still focuses on David Tennant, including that impenetrable Time Lord Triumphant event (which I still can't find a clear answer to what the hell it was about).

I dare say that like any scifi/fantasy property is saying at the moment – Doctor Who needs a "Kevin Feige" to oversee every aspect.



And the hits keep coming.

The two 2022 specials could be part of this series' eight episodes!
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/doctor-who-series-13-specials-speculation/

kidsick5000

Quote from: Mister Six on June 15, 2021, 03:14:10 AM
There is not a chance in Hell that the Beeb would give up Doctor Who, not at all.

Surely to God they must be giving Grant Morrison a call though. Two TV shows under Morrison's belt, plus they used to write for the Who comics in the 80s, and they've said they already have a season arc planned out.

Would be mad not to at least make an exploratory phone call.

Might not be give up totally. It has plenty of joint productions – The Serpent with Netflix, His Dark Materials with HBO.
I suspect they'll go that way.

Mister Six

HBO Max has the US rights to Who, but I can't see them ceding control. It seems like it's more of an issue getting people behind the typewriter than anything else these days anyway. 13 episodes a year doesn't mean anything if it's 13 dollops of pure shite.

daf

Quote from: kidsick5000 on June 15, 2021, 02:10:47 AM
After 16 years, old Doctor Who was about to have its (arguably) greatest season with City Of Death, Destiny Of The Daleks etc - and a sizeable chunk of which wouldn't even air  (Shada).

I think 'greatest' is pushing it a bit. 'City of Death' is up there with the very best, but they followed it with three absolute stinkers - which are arguably the worst of Tom Bakers time. I do like Romana's pink version of the Doctor's coat in Destiny, though!


kidsick5000

Quote from: daf on June 15, 2021, 07:27:44 AM
I do like Romana's pink version of the Doctor's coat in Destiny, though!

Indeed. City of Death and a pink coat = the best season ever. It stands to reason.

Norton Canes

Quote from: daf on June 15, 2021, 07:27:44 AM
I think 'greatest' is pushing it a bit. 'City of Death' is up there with the very best, but they followed it with three absolute stinkers - which are arguably the worst of Tom Bakers time. I do like Romana's pink version of the Doctor's coat in Destiny, though!

And Romana's version of the Doctor himself, in The Horns of Nimon.

Norton Canes

Quote from: Mister Six on June 15, 2021, 03:14:10 AM
Surely to God they must be giving Grant Morrison a call though

I wouldn't complain, but I can't see them going for someone who hasn't first written a couple of Doctor Who stories. Plus, going for Morrison would surely entail a massive shift in the show from a safe family crowd-pleaser.

There are some fantastic writers turning out scripts for 2000 AD right now - Gordon Rennie (a big Who fan), Dan Abnett, enigmatic newcomer Kenneth Niemand - I'd absolutely love for them to have a shot at some episodes.

frajer

Grant Morrison would be a fascinating choice and I'd love to see what he produced, but I don't think there's a chance of the BBC going with anyone who isn't a safe pair of hands. The fact that Chibnall is dull as dishwater and does exactly the job and nothing more is presumably one of his better qualities in the eyes of Auntie Beeb. I can understand it, but it does not make for good telly.

JamesTC


Replies From View

I actually can't envisage anyone wanting to take on the show after Chibnall.  It needs to be rested first, then return in another "series 1" guise.  I used to think nobody would want to follow Moffat, but might want to be seen as the one to rescue it after Chibnall.  But I have changed my mind - Chibnall has fucked it too much, and imagining anyone good taking it on at this point is like dreaming that... I dunno... Maite Alberdi might be clammering to tackle a Problem Child sequel.  Or A Nightmare on Elm Street or Terminator or whatever else feels thoroughly fatigued and extinguished by now.

Replies From View

And when I say "rested", I mean for at least a decade.  With a routine gap between series of 18 months, sometimes 2 years, anything less than a decade wouldn't sufficiently refresh the show.


The show obviously is treading water until the 60th, but if there was a search underway for a new showrunner I have a feeling we would already know about it.  I can't remember the timelines we had for RTD handing over to Moffat, or Moffat stepping down for Chibnall, but I have a feeling we had 2 years notice for each one?  Maybe I am imagining.

In any case I can't see anyone but Chibnall keeping the show going at this point.  For anyone else, it would be like inheriting Batman movies after Schumacher's Batman and Robin, and trying to stay within the same universe and put out a film in 1999.  No thanks.


Will the BBC ever rest the show now, though?  That's another question.  As much as I dislike Chibnall's version of it, my view isn't objective and as long as the production quality doesn't go down to the level of obvious egg cartons glued to walls and rubbery Dobbin monsters shuffling around leaving wet paint everywhere, I don't think the BBC will notice.  Even descending viewing figures seem to have little of an impact now.

Kelvin

Quote from: Replies From View on June 15, 2021, 12:53:36 PM
In any case I can't see anyone but Chibnall keeping the show going at this point.  For anyone else, it would be like inheriting Batman movies after Schumacher's Batman and Robin, and trying to stay within the same universe and put out a film in 1999.  No thanks.

I'm not convinced it is such a poison chalice, at least not for the reasons you think. If there's a reason it's hard to find a showrunner for Dr Who, it's most likely because the series is a high profile, high budget, high stress, all consuming goliath that (ideally) requires decades of knowledge and proven experience in writing successful, high concept sci-fi. That can't be easy to find in the UK.

I honestly don't think most producers would consider Chibnall's Who a laughing stock. The numbers were already dropping under Moffat, and I can't imagine many producers or executives are holding the show to the same standards as long-term fans.     

Quote from: Norton Canes on June 15, 2021, 09:58:05 AM
I wouldn't complain, but I can't see them going for someone who hasn't first written a couple of Doctor Who stories. Plus, going for Morrison would surely entail a massive shift in the show from a safe family crowd-pleaser.

There are some fantastic writers turning out scripts for 2000 AD right now - Gordon Rennie (a big Who fan), Dan Abnett, enigmatic newcomer Kenneth Niemand - I'd absolutely love for them to have a shot at some episodes.

I was always a bit disappointed that during the RTD era he wasn't cherry-picking the best of the 2000AD crowd, particularly as he's such an avowed fan (Gridlock is basically one big homage to Nemesis The Warlock, with a cameo from Max Normal).

The likes of Simon Spurrier and Al Ewing would've been perfect, the fact they're both now DC/Marvel bigshots respectively feels like an opportunity was missed to grab them for the show while they were still up-and-coming. But yes, the likes of Abnett, Rennie etc. would all be good choices. I would add Rob Williams and Robbie Morrison, who have both done stints on the licensed Titan comics

13 schoolyards

I think the problem with getting comic book scripters on board is that writing television isn't quite the same as writing comics and under the high pressure of putting together Who nobody really has time to hand-hold a writer while they figure it out. Neil Gaiman is about as high profile a writer to come out of comics as you can get (okay yeah, Alan Moore, but he'd only do it if Stewart Lee was The Doctor) and out of his two scripts for Who it's pretty obvious which one had proper editorial guidance.

Gaiman has basically had to build a new career as a showrunner from the ground up to keep his hand in with television, and while Morrison is trying to do the same they haven't really had anything take off as yet - it'd be an extremely gutsy move by the BBC to announce that the new showrunner for Who was one of the producers (not even the showrunner) behind Happy! and Brave New World.

(didn't Who reach out to 2000AD stalwarts Pat Mills and John Wagner & Alan Grant in the late 80s? I don't know how far the Wagner / Grant effort got but Mills had his rejected script adapted into an audio adventure)

Quote from: 13 schoolyards on June 15, 2021, 01:33:30 PM
I think the problem with getting comic book scripters on board is that writing television isn't quite the same as writing comics and under the high pressure of putting together Who nobody really has time to hand-hold a writer while they figure it out. Neil Gaiman is about as high profile a writer to come out of comics as you can get (okay yeah, Alan Moore, but he'd only do it if Stewart Lee was The Doctor) and out of his two scripts for Who it's pretty obvious which one had proper editorial guidance.

Gaiman has basically had to build a new career as a showrunner from the ground up to keep his hand in with television, and while Morrison is trying to do the same they haven't really had anything take off as yet - it'd be an extremely gutsy move by the BBC to announce that the new showrunner for Who was one of the producers (not even the showrunner) behind Happy! and Brave New World.

(didn't Who reach out to 2000AD stalwarts Pat Mills and John Wagner & Alan Grant in the late 80s? I don't know how far the Wagner / Grant effort got but Mills had his rejected script adapted into an audio adventure)

To be honest I think it's more to do with snobbery to do with comics not being seen as proper writing. They've been perfectly happen to commission writers from a theatrical or literary background with little TV experience, Chibnall himself basically went from fringe theatre to doing fairly high profile TV gigs within a couple of years.

I believe Wagner wrote two scripts and Mills three, all of which got rejected for various reasons (I'm guessing budgetary mostly). Four of these (The Iron Legion, The Star Beast, City Of The Damned and The Dogs of Doom) were reused for the comic that ran in Doctor Who Weekly, although Mills's final script "The Space Whale" got tantalisingly close to being made during the Davison era (it was originally going to be the story that introduced Turlough) but got pulled at the last minute.

I'm not too fussed about the Space Whale, but honestly they were mad not to use The Star Beast, which has more ideas in it than pretty much anything else in the TV show at that point.

daf

Quote from: Ron Maels Moustache on June 15, 2021, 02:00:54 PM
I'm not too fussed about the Space Whale, but honestly they were mad not to use The Star Beast, which has more ideas in it than pretty much anything else in the TV show at that point.

That's one Big Finish made with Tom Baker a couple of years ago, along with The Iron Legion.



Both sounded really great - particularly enjoyed the new companions Sharon and Fudge!

Norton Canes

Quote from: 13 schoolyards on June 15, 2021, 01:33:30 PM
I think the problem with getting comic book scripters on board is that writing television isn't quite the same as writing comics and under the high pressure of putting together Who nobody really has time to hand-hold a writer while they figure it out

The thing about the current crop of GGC script droids (sorry, I'm slipping into Tharg-speak... I mean '2000 AD writers') is that they're very, I suppose one would say, box-set literate - clued up on what makes episodic TV good and compelling. Dan Abnett's stories in particular are like illustrated TV scripts, and Rob Williams has been working on the proposed Mega-City One series. I've got no doubt they'd be more capable of throwing out show-ready scripts than the old-school brigade.

13 schoolyards

Quote from: Ron Maels Moustache on June 15, 2021, 02:00:54 PM
To be honest I think it's more to do with snobbery to do with comics not being seen as proper writing. They've been perfectly happen to commission writers from a theatrical or literary background with little TV experience, Chibnall himself basically went from fringe theatre to doing fairly high profile TV gigs within a couple of years.

Yeah, I'd agree with the snobbery angle, especially now that comics (as separate from comic-related movies) aren't particularly "cool" (unlike the late 80s).

Since the return Who seems especially showrunner-driven, and you need a very confident / self-sacrificing showrunner to be hiring outside writers who've already established themselves successfully in another field - there's no upside for you, as if they do a good job they get all the credit and if they don't you get all the blame.

Norton Canes

It could definitely happen if the right kind of geek takes over. Andrew Cartmel appeared out of nowhere in 1987 and suddenly wanted the show to ape the style of the successful graphic novels of the time.

Mister Six

Quote from: Norton Canes on June 15, 2021, 09:58:05 AM
I wouldn't complain, but I can't see them going for someone who hasn't first written a couple of Doctor Who stories.

You mean TV stories? Morrison wrote Who comics in the 80s.

Quote from: frajer on June 15, 2021, 10:16:40 AM
Grant Morrison would be a fascinating choice and I'd love to see what he produced

"They produced" - Morrison came out as they/them nonbinary a few months back. I say this mostly to reinforce it for myself, as I keep writing "he" and having to go back and change it. These old neurons are proving tough to rewrite.