Doctor Who Series 12B: The Timeless Chibnall (Xmas special & pre-Series 13 chat)

[pigamus]

You're being silly now.

[olliebean]

One of the last things he said about his departure concerned his age and the fact he wouldn't be able to keep up the same level of energy forever.  Maybe he feels that coming back would be a disappointment for fans of his Doctor, in the sense that he wouldn't necessarily have the right energy levels.


Or perhaps he knows that his Doctor and Moffat's writing were so entwined that he just doesn't want anyone else to write his Doctor.

Perhaps he'd be more up for it if he knows it's not going to be written by Chris Chibnall.

[Replies From View]

I think 25 years after the 50th, people are ready for a big celebration again, but only 10 years after, you're more likely to say - well we did all that for the 50th. So it's more likely to be low-key I would have thought.

It depends whether we are to think of Doctor Who as a family show, or pitched more at pensioners like Coronation Street is.  Pensioners think that 10 years was just yesterday, and would be furious at having to wait fewer than 25 years between events demanding they lift up a party hooter.  In all truth they are patently hoping to be dead before the next one, because that is what they are like:  horrible human beings who hate fun more than death.


It's a bit different at the child end of the family spectrum, though.  For them, 10 years isn't only yesterday at all.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

You're being silly now.

I am a bit, yes.

[Ballad of Ballard Berkley]

It depends whether we are to think of Doctor Who as a family show, or pitched more at pensioners like Coronation Street is.  Pensioners think that 10 years was just yesterday, and would be furious at having to wait fewer than 25 years between events demanding they lift up a party hooter.  In all truth they are patently hoping to be dead before the next one, because that is what they are like:  horrible human beings who hate fun more than death.


It's a bit different at the child end of the family spectrum, though.  For them, 10 years isn't only yesterday at all.

As amusing though this is - and it did make me laugh - you're obviously judging Coronation Street based on your own very vague idea of what Coronation Street is. It's not just watched by DEAD SOON pensioners.

No idea what we're arguing about now. I'm tired and bored.

[Mister Six]

Maybe if there had been (or will have been) 140 rollicking Doctor Who episodes between the 50th and 60th anniversaries then I'd be more enthusiastic, but it'll be, what, six increasingly truncated seasons and a handful of specials, with just under half of that total being Chris Chibnall shiters...? Feels like throwing someone a big celebratory piss-up after they've just been taken off the vent and moved out of intensive care. I think I'd rather the show gently recuperate and put some distance between itself and the Timeless Child debacle before it made a big "look at me" song and dance performance again.

I mean, I know season 6 had its wobbles and season 7 was far from perfect, but Who still went into the 60th anniversary with a sense of vim and vibrant joy that made the whole thing feel like a glorious, momentous climax. After three seasons of incoherent, bland Chibnall dirge and yet more gaps, I can't imagine the 60th will feel anything like as triumphant - more like the cold shiver of relief that comes after you successfully complete a dash to the toilet following a bad night at the Shrimp-O-Rama.

[purlieu]

You'd have to squint to make "a crossover skit with Eastenders, made and shown once as part of a charity gala, and shot with a weird version of 3D that required the camera to be constantly spinning" any more of a sincere effort than charity skit Time Crash, which was shown in other countries and included on DVD releases.

I dunno, I'd say bringing back a show, and a large number of its actors, four years after it was cancelled by the BBC was a concerted attempt at a celebration. If it can have a special of some sort when it's not even on the air, then I don't think a 60th anniversary is a big deal. Either way, the 10th, 20th and 50th anniversaries have had a special, and they're the only ones that have been broadcast while the show is in active production, so again it seems reasonable to expect something.

And there'll undoubtedly be a 20 part Big Finish story involving every incarnation of the Doctor - including all the Unbound ones - either way.

[Midas]

You could argue Thirty Years in the TARDIS was the main celebratory piece of programming for the thirtieth, but Dimensions In Time was still a legitimate, albeit terrible, attempt at an anniversary story. It's worth remembering it was essentially a desperate last-minute scramble to produce something after the intended thirtieth anniversary special - The Dark Dimension - was cancelled during pre-production.

why am I awake at 1 AM typing this... what am I doing with my life...

[Stone Cold Steve Austin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsT1r2vXXQk ITV had a shortened version of this on all their ad breaks for a month for Corrie's 60th, no? I certainly saw it dozens of times and I'm not a huge TV watcher these days. And they had bigger plans for the episode but had to scrap them because the pandemic limited the scope of whatever big stunt they wanted to do.

[olliebean]

And there'll undoubtedly be a 20 part Big Finish story involving every incarnation of the Doctor - including all the Unbound ones - either way.

Thanks to Chibnall, "every incarnation" would now be a significantly more ambitious undertaking than previously.

[Replies From View]

Thanks to Chibnall, "every incarnation" would now be a significantly more ambitious undertaking than previously.

It will now be framed as "every known incarnation", but still.  Chibnall's intervention has lessened the impact of anyone - even the most famous actor on earth - suddenly announcing on screen that they are the Doctor.  You could wait two decades between each one and it would still feel unremarkable.  An incredible feat to take the genius of John Hurt's War Doctor and turn it into something mundane.  What Chibnall has done is inject an insurmountable shitness into the very core of the show.  At the moment it's difficult to see through the rubbishness of his writing and actually see the long-term damage that has been done, but it'll probably become apparent on the BBC's 100th.

[Replies From View]

Maybe if there had been (or will have been) 140 rollicking Doctor Who episodes between the 50th and 60th anniversaries then I'd be more enthusiastic, but it'll be, what, six increasingly truncated seasons and a handful of specials, with just under half of that total being Chris Chibnall shiters...? Feels like throwing someone a big celebratory piss-up after they've just been taken off the vent and moved out of intensive care. I think I'd rather the show gently recuperate and put some distance between itself and the Timeless Child debacle before it made a big "look at me" song and dance performance again.

I mean, I know season 6 had its wobbles and season 7 was far from perfect, but Who still went into the 50th anniversary with a sense of vim and vibrant joy that made the whole thing feel like a glorious, momentous climax. After three seasons of incoherent, bland Chibnall dirge and yet more gaps, I can't imagine the 60th will feel anything like as triumphant - more like the cold shiver of relief that comes after you successfully complete a dash to the toilet following a bad night at the Shrimp-O-Rama.

I do agree with this.  Despite my expectations that the 60th will be marked in-universe somehow, I'm not ready for a 60th anniversary story yet (although it's worth remembering we're not eight years since the 50th, and feelings might change in the next year and a half). 

I feel like the BBC's 100th will be a better opportunity for celebration, since the focus of the story hopefully wouldn't need to be Doctor Who itself.  What we don't need now is everything focusing on the background to the Doctor and her origins and her various incarnations and eurgh.  In all honesty it feels as though we've had nothing but naval gazing these last few years... even when it's not been about the Timeless Child, stories have sidelined companions to focus on the Doctor - even when all we've seen has been an ability to think out loud and explain stuff we're not seeing on screen.

[Replies From View]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsT1r2vXXQk ITV had a shortened version of this on all their ad breaks for a month for Corrie's 60th, no? I certainly saw it dozens of times and I'm not a huge TV watcher these days. And they had bigger plans for the episode but had to scrap them because the pandemic limited the scope of whatever big stunt they wanted to do.

Funny she should say "boring", because there were originally words to the theme tune that went like this:


🎵iiiiiiiiit is a boring street (a boring street)
theeeeeeese lives are shit (are fucking shit)🎵

[Deanjam]

People keep bringing up Coronation Street as contrast, but did Coronation Street have 10th, 20th, 30th and 50th shows?  Beyond being a long running show itself, what's the parallel?

They did a special live episode for one of the anniversaries.

[Mister Six]

I do agree with this.  Despite my expectations that the 60th will be marked in-universe somehow, I'm not ready for a 60th anniversary story yet (although it's worth remembering we're not eight years since the 50th, and feelings might change in the next year and a half). 

Unlikely, though, since the next year and a half will feature eight slops of Chibnall gruel plus a couple of not-very-specials (might have miscounted there, I'm not arsed about keeping up with the exact programming details any more).

The only way I can see any enthusiasm building is if the Timeless Child is retconned out of existence (look, it was all a lie!) and the new showrunner/Doctor combo is absolutely mind-blowing. Anything less than that and it'll be a queasy, "All right, let's see how it goes, then" at best.

I really do want Who to be good. Last night I had a dream about a lost Capaldi/Bill season that had a surprise Peter Davison and Matt Smith episode in it, and lots of joyous, outlandish, big-hearted fun. I'm sure if I could remember exactly what the season consisted of it would be absolute gibberish, dreams being what they are, but I felt so delighted in that moment.

[Poison To The Mind]

I dunno, I'd say bringing back a show, and a large number of its actors, four years after it was cancelled by the BBC was a concerted attempt at a celebration. If it can have a special of some sort when it's not even on the air, then I don't think a 60th anniversary is a big deal. Either way, the 10th, 20th and 50th anniversaries have had a special, and they're the only ones that have been broadcast while the show is in active production, so again it seems reasonable to expect something.

The 20th and 50th are anniversaries that generally get more cultural attention, for both individuals and institutions. And it's been brought up already, but The Three Doctors was not conceived, made, advertised or broadcast as a tenth anniversary special, and indeed aired a few weeks after the programme's ninth anniversary.

If Children In Need advertised Dimensions In Time as "a 30th (and an 8th anniversary) special celebrating the great legacy of Doctor Who, and also of Eastenders, tune in this Saturday for a grand crossover event" then fair dos. Watching it decades later on youtube, though, it looks like two five-minute-ish chunks of will-this-do pissing about aired as skits during a charity telethon, with enough unemployed actors thrown at it that gran and the kids will hopefully recognise one or two and not get bored by the end of the five minutes.

the "our history" CIN site basically only mentions Wogan through the years, and Joanna Lumley in 1985. A grand celebration of the sixth anniversary of Sapphire And Steel, three years after it was cancelled by the BBC, no doubt.

[Replies From View]

People don't fuss over their 20th birthday do they?  I thought it was 18th and 21st?  If it's the 20th as well it's because they're taking any excuse to party.

And then the next big one is 40, I'd say.  So I'm not sure it helps to say that certain anniversaries are automatically big and others are small.  It's more useful to think along the lines of whether the time is ripe for a big celebration, taking into account how long ten years is for the children who love the show.



Also this wasn't acknowledged:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsT1r2vXXQk ITV had a shortened version of this on all their ad breaks for a month for Corrie's 60th, no? I certainly saw it dozens of times and I'm not a huge TV watcher these days. And they had bigger plans for the episode but had to scrap them because the pandemic limited the scope of whatever big stunt they wanted to do.

[Ron Maels Moustache]

the "our history" CIN site basically only mentions Wogan through the years, and Joanna Lumley in 1985. A grand celebration of the sixth anniversary of Sapphire And Steel, three years after it was cancelled by the BBC, no doubt.

S&S was ITV.

Did they mention Lumley's on-camera striptease on the 83 CIN? One of those things that sounds like the fever dream of a horny teenager, but bizarrely, it happened.

[Norton Canes]

The only way I can see any enthusiasm building is if the Timeless Child is retconned out of existence (look, it was all a lie!) and the new showrunner/Doctor combo is absolutely mind-blowing

If B, then A immediately becomes less then inconsequential

Therefore only B necessary

I really do want Who to be good. Last night I had a dream about a lost Capaldi/Bill season that had a surprise Peter Davison and Matt Smith episode in it, and lots of joyous, outlandish, big-hearted fun. I'm sure if I could remember exactly what the season consisted of it would be absolute gibberish, dreams being what they are, but I felt so delighted in that moment.

I had a dream once where a group of bank robbers all wore Sea Devil masks

[Replies From View]

Was it the Sea Devils from when they appeared in their Pertwee story, or when they were on Pebble Mill with their eyes crushed inwards?

[Mister Six]

If B, then A immediately becomes less then inconsequential

Therefore only B necessary

Hardly - the damage that concept does to the fabric of Doctor Who is enormous, and while it'll hopefully be forgotten in time (ho ho), anyone coming immediately after Chibnall is going to have it (and all its details - The Doctor being responsible for almost completely wiping out the human race, Gallifrey destroyed again etc etc) hanging over them. Unless Chibnall does the decent thing and undoes it all.[nb]and then catapults himself into the sun[/nb]

[Poison To The Mind]

People don't fuss over their 20th birthday do they?  I thought it was 18th and 21st?  If it's the 20th as well it's because they're taking any excuse to party.

And then the next big one is 40, I'd say.

People celebrate 20th wedding anniversaries, or 20 years at a job or since buying a house, more prominently than they celebrate 21st anniversaries of same. Birthdays are basically a separate and discrete class of anniversary that have a whole special word to distinguish them :)

Anyway yes, a 60th Who special would be great and fun if the programme was in full steam creatively and having a good run in the zeitgeist! But following a Chibnall season and Chibnall gap year+ and Chibnall season and another Chibnall gap year+ and Chibnall half-season and two Chibnall dribbles and whatever Chibnall reckons makes for a grand-scale BBC 100th anniversary special, any new special is going to feel empty and desperate. Even more so if they try to launch a new Doctor as part of a multi-Doctor special, which is a worse idea than anything JNT ever had.

Having some retrospective specials and whatnot, then using the anniversary date as a hook for kicking off the new era, would be a smarter way of doing things. Assuming the pandemic settles down enough that audiences and television both still exist.

[Poison To The Mind]

S&S was ITV.

That was meant to be part of the joke, but I crucially failed to include anything specifically funny.

Did they mention Lumley's on-camera striptease on the 83 CIN? One of those things that sounds like the fever dream of a horny teenager, but bizarrely, it happened.

tyvm

[Replies From View]

Just realised that if Capaldi did return as the 12th Doctor, he'd be doing it either with his shorter series 8 lengthed hair, or a wig.


Makes you think.

[BritishHobo]

Just reading about that failed Dark Dimension 30th anniversary special, it's really making me laugh for some reason that they so openly favoured Tom Baker, they actively set it in an alternate universe where he never regenerated, giving all the later Doctors shitty, piddly little parts and pissing them off in the process.

Maybe for the 60th they could revive The Dark Dimension but use Tennant's Doctor instead. Smith and Capaldi getting little ten-second cameos going "we must restore the timeline!" and then disappearing for the rest of the show.

[purlieu]

Reminds me of the original idea to have McGann regenerate from Tom.

[Midas]

If you're feeling masochistic, you can read the full rehearsal script for The Dark Dimension here. It's baffling.

[Norton Canes]

Hardly - the damage that concept does to the fabric of Doctor Who is enormous, and while it'll hopefully be forgotten in time (ho ho), anyone coming immediately after Chibnall is going to have it (and all its details - The Doctor being responsible for almost completely wiping out the human race, Gallifrey destroyed again etc etc) hanging over them. Unless Chibnall does the decent thing and undoes it all

No, I don't get that response at all. The best way for the show to deal with all that stuff is to ignore it. A complete reboot, in other words. No last of the Time Lords, no destruction of Gallifrey, no Timeless Child; just the Doctor and companion(s) travelling haphazardly through time and space. That's the only 'fabric of Doctor Who' and while it's the man focus it will always remain intact.

If the next show's next iteration is brilliant then no-one except the die-hard pedant is going to complain when, after a couple of season, the Doctor says something like "You know, there have been fourteen of me".

[Psybro]

I was pleased what RTD did with Last of the Time Lords, because the NAs demonstrated that the temptation for things to disappear up their own arse is too strong with Gallifrey around, and anything interesting that can be done with it probably won't work on screen on a BBC budget.

Whilst I respect Moffat's reasons for bringing it back he was far too generous to future showrunners in doing so, as proven two seasons later. And even he immediately wrote it as generic space marines.

[Replies From View]

I was thinking this morning how restrained Moffat was when it came to reconnecting with the classic era.  He really held off until 2013 - the 50th anniversary year - before he went anywhere near it.  It was a step that worked for that year, and then he dialled it down again thereafter, with a few nods to classic stuff but always aware that he had to keep it mainstream and accessible.

I wouldn't be surprised if the BBC were open-minded about Chibnall until they saw how impenetrable the Timeless Child stuff was.  It's basically the nightmare case scenario of what someone obsessed with the show since childhood would do if given free rein to do whatever they want.  It disappears up its own arse, it's boring, and the only people it should appeal to (diehard fans who remember Brain of Morbius) largely think it is shit. 

We're now hearing that the next showrunner will be less of a fanboy, and I'm really not surprised.