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March 28, 2024, 07:20:53 PM

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'The Mirror and the Light' by Hilary Mantel

Started by BritishHobo, March 05, 2020, 11:19:03 AM

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BritishHobo

It is here. 900 pages of hot Tudor action. There's some fairly inevitable sneering in the latest Private Eye - eurgh, imagine being a popular phenomenon that people like - but I'm excited to get stuck in. I can see why people think they're bloated, but I think the first two books are truly remarkable; there aren't many books that give me the kind of pleasure that reading these has. Expertly constructed while still being thrilling. What I've always loved is that while it looks overwrought or complex, it's never really,  and never dry. It's so exciting and so dramatic. If she sticks this landing without it falling victim to the lax editing problem other phenomenons suffer from (see Rowling's fucking absurd doorstopper of a fourth book in thd Cormoran Strike series), this could be a perfect trilogy. Can't wait for the one-volume collected edition which I can use to club people to death.

studpuppet

I've had it on my bookshelf at home since before Christmas. Unfortunately I never bothered to read the first two so it's been sat there uselessly for two months. Now it doesn't matter anymore I might start reading them.

selectivememory

I was beginning to think she'd never finish this. Glad she has though, as I loved the first two books. Might have to rewatch the BBC adaptation though to refresh my memory of what's happened so far, as it's been so long. All I can really remember is that the last book ended with
Spoiler alert
Anne Boleyn's execution
[close]
[nb]Feels strange putting an infamous historical event in a spoiler, but what the hell.[/nb].

Inspector Norse

Yes, it seems a long while now since the last one, but the historical framework means this new one should be easy enough to get stuck into. The first two were magnificent books.

I read her French Revolution novel a couple of years ago and really liked that too. Such a gift for capturing the social and emotional feel of an era.

amputeeporn

I read Wolf Hall in a lovely week where I went into the library every day and did nothing but. Been very keen to read BUTB but want to wait until I can give it real time and headspace. As alluded to above, thats not really necessary from any kind of 'challenging' aspect. It's mainly because the first was pure enjoyment and I'd like that experience uninterrupted again.

Will be a phenomenal achievement if she delivers a book to the same standard.

purlieu

Quote from: Inspector Norse on March 10, 2020, 12:12:59 PM
I read her French Revolution novel a couple of years ago and really liked that too. Such a gift for capturing the social and emotional feel of an era.
I read A Place of Greater Safety last year, and it was a really strange experience, in that I've never felt like I've 'lived' in a book so much before. I couldn't wait to get back to the book and just dive in and forget I was living in 21st Century Britain.

She's one of a few authors who I can just seem to read anything by, something about her writing always strikes me as unusual, in a very good way. APoGS is probably the best example, in how often it flits between tenses and perspectives and even formats (sometimes just going into pages of effectively scripted dialogue), without it ever truly jarring. There's something about the frequent use of "he, Cromwell" and such in the first two Cromwell books that I really like, although it's hard to explain why that particular wording appeals.

Wolf Hall is superb, a really engaging book. I was slightly disappointed by Bring Up the Bodies, but maybe because it seemed to be slightly more plot-driven and a touch less character-based, which of course reflects the actually happenings of the time: lots going on in a very short space, with less time ruminate on the gradual rise of Cromwell's influence, as the first book had.

Slightly annoyed by the inevitable cover redesign which renders the uniformity of the first two books pointless, especially as the majority of her other novels were republished in this style, but the first two in the Cromwell trilogy seemed to be intentionally kept in their original format (with Wolf Hall even given a different coloured edition of the same design only last year). It's a good job my shelf is generally full of mismatched books.

selectivememory

Finally finished this a few days ago. Really liked it on the whole, although because it was covering so many complicated events and intrigues, it began to feel a bit bloated and sprawling at times. But on the other hand, I kind of think it gives a good sense of just how much stuff Cromwell was having to track and take care of just to stay above water and not disappoint the king (which he still fails to do a lot of the time) while his enemies are always on the peripheries waiting for any excuse to displace him or bring him down entirely. It feels like there's so much going on, and all at the same time, that it's probably a slightly more complex book than Wolf Hall, even though that book covered several more years, and it's nowhere near as tight and focused as Bring Up the Bodies, which covers a single year in great depth.

Although when it got to around the beginning of 1540 (the year that Cromwell died), I felt that it really went up a notch, as that's when you begin to see Norfolk and Gardiner plotting together and closing in on him as his own failures mount up and the king grows increasingly pissed off with him. And the penultimate chapter, with Cromwell locked in the Tower for a month or so and being regularly visited and interrogated is fantastic, probably the best part of the entire book. Execution scene is also handled brilliantly.

Definitely want to read A Place of Greater Safety some time this year after the comments in this thread.

phosphoresce

Well that didn't disappoint. So much good stuff: Chapuys being too clever by half, Cromwell at work as Henry's political fixer, the Eel boy, the estranged daughter, Cromwell's interrogation in the tower, the closing chapter...

What was the criticism in Private Eye, out of interest? That's it's overly long? Did they do a mickey take of her writing style? lots of short, descriptive sentences in the present tense?

BritishHobo

This is becoming a bit of a fucking millstone for me at the moment, having had it since release day over a year ago. It's very good, but after what feels like months of reading, I'm still not quite halfway through. I'm loath to question Mantel's wisdom, but having reached the point where she
Spoiler alert
invents an illegitimate daughter for Cromwell
[close]
, I do have to wonder whether it definitely needs quite so much going on as it has.

Mobius

Just started this, taken me ages but finally finished Bringing Up The Bodies which was excellent

Do you guys reckon they'll make a series of this like Wolf Hall? I just watched that recently too and loved it.

idunnosomename

Wolf Hall is a genuinely brilliant novel, just for how narrative weaves in and out of Cromwell's mind. Bring Up the Bodies is okay, but the TV series was another level of brilliant (especially the score).

I'm hearing this isn't anywhere near as good, but whatever, I'm going to need to read it. how do you read books these days

Mobius

I mostly listen to books as it's easier when you're in the bath and you can do it whilst playing management/simulation games. The Mirror And The Light audiobook I've just started is 38 hours long, so that'll keep me busy for ages.

I've got the last episode of Wolf Hall to watch tonight, been pausing as I go to ensure I don't overtake the book. Such a fantastic show, wish there was more..

selectivememory

Quote from: Mobius on June 28, 2021, 12:23:50 AM
Do you guys reckon they'll make a series of this like Wolf Hall? I just watched that recently too and loved it.

No idea when it'll get made or if they'll get any of the original cast back, but it was confirmed a couple of years ago: https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama/wolf-hall-series-2-bbc-hilary-mantel-adaptation-confirmed-the-mirror-and-the-light-final-book-trilogy/

Mobius

That's great, well I hope they can get the cast back. The show was phenomenal.

I like the way Anne Boleyn says Cromwell like Cremwell

touchingcloth

I hope she renames some of the Thomases in this one.

Mobius

Just finished Mirror and Light.

My god, what a fantastic trilogy of books. So beautifully written, so immersive. So sad as you reach the end, knowing how it all turns out...

Mobius

I know it's based on history but being that it takes a few fictional turns... I really wanted Cromwell to survive. I was gutted by the end, he was a decent bloke.

Mister Six

SPOILERS!

I really should get back to reading Wolf Hall, as it was a beautifully written book. Got so much else to get through first, though, including Alan Moore's massive Jerusalem.

There's one bit in Wolf Hall that totally dazzled me - a sort of dreamlike, occult-tinged summary of myths and fairytales swimming about at the time. Anyone know which bit I mean? I think it got a chapter all to itself.

Mobius

I'm going through it again. Bloody adore it

That's part 2 chapter 2 "An Occult History Of Britain"

Mister Six

Amazing bit, that - thanks for identifying it; I'll have to look it up again soon!

gilbertharding

Quote from: Mobius on July 26, 2021, 09:33:55 PM
I really wanted Cromwell to survive. I was gutted by the end, he was a decent bloke.

Now, I would say that about 80 percent - maybe more - of what I know about this period (in other words, everything except 'the facts' - whatever they are) I got from these books, and I agree with this point of view. Cromwell was, if not decent, at least someone you would respect, and be glad to have on your side rather than against you. You understand his motives. And if he's a bastard, he very much has to be, because the political scene of the time is full of bigger, badder bastards.

And yet, I get the impression that he's been viewed by almost everyone else, probably since the day he died, as one of the worst of the worst. I haven't seen A Man for All Seasons, but I've a feeling I might find it a bit confusing now.

I mean, that goes to show something, doesn't it? Something about framing, bias, and the myth of neutrality.



Meanwhile - it's occurred to me a few times while I've been reading it, that the whole breaking with Rome thing is analagous to Brexit, isn't it?

Mobius

Yeah I sort of forget that these books aren't entirely factual. I've heard it described as "a sympathetic portrayal of Cromwell" so I'm sure it takes liberties but he seems alright to me! Much better than Thomas More who burned a load of people.

I'm sure the historical opinion of Cromwell is partially because all the people that hated and were jealous of him rewrote his history after his death.

gilbertharding

Nearing the end of this now - and handily, the BBC have a documentary series about the Boleyns. As I said above, I was a bit ignorant about everything except the bare details of this story, so it's quite useful to have the background filled in.

jobotic

Can't believe they weren't even West Ham fans

Mobius

#24
Yeah I stumbled across that BBC doco on Youtube last night as the algorithm is throwing everything Tudor my way. Really enjoyed it and have downloaded the next 2 episodes to watch.

I'm onto the third book again, on my re-read, or well a listen on this occasion. The audiobook is fantastically narrated by Ben Miles who played Cromwell in the stage play of Wolf Hall, and is a friend of Hilary Mantel's. He really brings the characters to life, it's brilliant.

gilbertharding

Quote from: selectivememory on April 10, 2020, 10:08:18 PM
Execution scene is also handled brilliantly.


Fucking hell, wasn't it?
Spoiler alert
I started to realise how it was going to play out a few pages from the end... realising that was probably the whole reason everything about Cromwell was voiced as 'he', and viewed precisely through his eyes...
[close]

I'll have to re-read that bit, but probably not just before I have to go to sleep this time.