Author Topic: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links  (Read 14744 times)

Head Gardener

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2020, 04:21:23 PM »

Sheffield Wednesday

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2020, 04:28:51 PM »
Tactically, would it be not be sensible in fact to get it ASAP and get treated if necessary while the system can still cope and then put your feet up for four months eating bean on the toast and playing Japanese rhythm games? I actually might fuck off my job and apply to be one of them lab rats for three grand and get a 65" OLED for the summer of isolation.

That actually sounds like a great idea, just never see anyone again and play Ikaruga.

pancreas

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2020, 04:32:25 PM »

chveik

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2020, 04:34:44 PM »
Right. It's a good thing.

this is getting less amusing by the day

Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2020, 04:52:47 PM »
I guess one way of reversing the apparent trend toward a permanent Labour minority would be for the Tories to wantonly kill a few million people via negligent manslaughter. One would hope that would hurt them at the polls.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2020, 04:57:05 PM »
this is getting less amusing by the day

I would prefer us to be in a sustainable relationship with the planet. This has political preconditions which may well be easier under coronavirus.

Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2020, 05:21:18 PM »
'Herd immunity' is the UK government's strategy? What da fuck? Hundreds of thousands of elderly people are going to die you cretins!

I think the idea is to keep it away from the old and the vulnerable as much as possible, whilst letting everyone else get it so that when enough people have had it to develop this herd immunity that I don't think means what Boris Johnson thinks it means, the elderly and vulnerable will be less likely to catch it because there'll be much less of it going around.

The trouble is, even a small percentage of people not in high-risk groups will die - probably hundreds of thousands before herd immunity is achieved. Also, if it turns out recovery doesn't confer long-term immunity (this seems to be an unknown atm), then it will all have been for nothing.

Dewt

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2020, 05:25:27 PM »
That sounds like it would require some very specific, complicated logistics to work out well. So maybe the country should do some of those. Do some logistics and a little bit of plannings.

Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2020, 05:36:40 PM »
The problem is that, as Ian Donald says, the alternative is to lock everybody up as long as the infection is around, until we have the ability to treat it or vaccinate against it. That's likely to take a year at minimum, and locking everybody up for a year Italy-style is not going to be easy or pleasant. The question is whether it's more sustainable to shut everybody up, or shut just the elderly and vulnerable up and hope they don't come into contact with anyone else. And I don't have an answer to that.

chveik

  • vampires have it easy
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2020, 05:56:26 PM »
I would prefer us to be in a sustainable relationship with the planet. This has political preconditions which may well be easier under coronavirus.

this is confusing, I thought it was just edgy humour.

carry on

edit: that's not a dig, I don't really know what to think about all that yet.

Dewt

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2020, 05:58:16 PM »
The problem is that, as Ian Donald says, the alternative is to lock everybody up as long as the infection is around, until we have the ability to treat it or vaccinate against it. That's likely to take a year at minimum, and locking everybody up for a year Italy-style is not going to be easy or pleasant. The question is whether it's more sustainable to shut everybody up, or shut just the elderly and vulnerable up and hope they don't come into contact with anyone else. And I don't have an answer to that.
I think it's fair to say that we're experiencing a delay because this all wounds capitalism hugely and they're trying to find a way to do this that makes the plebs shoulder as much of the burden as possible.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2020, 06:01:06 PM »
this is confusing, I thought it was just edgy humour.

carry on

No, I'm actually serious. The planet's on fire and we need a serious reconfiguration of our society even to provide the willpower to think about doing anything about it. This may be our best chance.

Dewt

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2020, 06:05:37 PM »
Something had to happen to the world, didn't it? We had gone so long saying "this is unsustainable, it can't go on this way". Maybe it is now stopping going on this way and we need to realise it.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2020, 06:07:39 PM »
My only worry is that there's a power-vacuum which gets filled by extreme repression.

Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2020, 06:09:22 PM »
The problem is that, as Ian Donald says, the alternative is to lock everybody up as long as the infection is around, until we have the ability to treat it or vaccinate against it. That's likely to take a year at minimum, and locking everybody up for a year Italy-style is not going to be easy or pleasant. The question is whether it's more sustainable to shut everybody up, or shut just the elderly and vulnerable up and hope they don't come into contact with anyone else. And I don't have an answer to that.

Well Ian Donald must be a fucking dummy because within a couple weeks China has seemingly slowed the spread in the midst of population centers about 50 times more prone to outbreak than the U.K.

Dewt

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2020, 06:18:29 PM »
My only worry is that there's a power-vacuum which gets filled by extreme repression.
I intend to rise up and install my own particular brand of caring fascism.

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2020, 06:18:40 PM »
No, I'm actually serious. The planet's on fire and we need a serious reconfiguration of our society even to provide the willpower to think about doing anything about it. This may be our best chance.
And killing a few seasons-worth of poor old people a few years early, along with a few others, is the key?

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2020, 06:20:14 PM »
And killing a few seasons-worth of poor old people a few years early, along with a few others, is the key?

Why 'poor'?

Dewt

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2020, 06:20:45 PM »
And killing a few seasons-worth of poor old people a few years early, along with a few others, is the key?
Oh come on, you know that isn't the only measurable outcome of this.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2020, 06:21:31 PM »
Yes, and I'm all ears for your plans for reconfiguring society, Z.

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2020, 06:21:43 PM »
My only worry is that there's a power-vacuum which gets filled by extreme repression.
The more politically relevant aspects of COVID-19 is that it's a foreign-originated natural disaster predicted on freedom of travel and illustrating the apparent inadequacy of universal health and social care provision.

Meanwhile, hard-ons for China and hard borders abound.

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2020, 06:25:04 PM »
Why 'poor'?
If you want to find people riddled with comorbidities and pre-existing frailty, who who'll struggle to maintain cocooning and are less able to self-care in the early stages, I know where they are.

If if CORVID-19 doesn't kill poor people more often itself (and I will bet it does), then the general reduction in healthcare and emergency response will. Heart disease, cancer, COPD, every other kind of respiratory infection, UTIs. These aren't going away for the next few months, either. Remember flooding? How are public health teams doing with the aftermath of that? (Oh, they're all either doing COVID-19 epidemiology, advice giving or contact tracing.)
.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 06:47:34 PM by Zetetic »

Sheffield Wednesday

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2020, 06:28:36 PM »
I'm coming more and more round to this.

I'm thinking:

- The China lockdown model is in itself only viable in China or in a country with recent experience and respect for outbreaks, such as SARS or maybe Ebola. Otherwise, the populace will be resistant to self-isolation through ignorance, lack of practice and simply lack of resources.

- The China long-term model involves managing diminishing waves of recurrence/spikes until a vaccine/immunity resolves this definitively. Only China has the resources and state-determined malleable infrastructure capable of this approach. Taiwan, Singapore and similar models can continue to manage this provided their testing and tracking and isolation measures remain sustainable. They will nevertheless suffer an economic impact through these tight controls.

- Italy and other European countries are attempting to imitate this model, but without the material resources, experience, manpower, infrastructure or compliant populace required to implement it. Their current lockdown may buy their government a certain amount of time to plan how to manage what happens next and may prevent their healthcare services from being completely incapacitated. If they attempt to manage waves of recurrence/spikes, they may not have the resources or endurance.

- Our approach recognises not only the resistance of our populace to authority but also that the arse will fall out of the economy and that the welfare system is so fucked that tens of thousands would either starve to death or riot/loot if locked up for too long long. This way, the least physically vulnerable members of society can continue to earn and support themselves and keep the economy ticking over.

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2020, 06:32:57 PM »
Oh come on, you know that isn't the only measurable outcome of this.
It's the big one.

There will be "excess mortality" all-round and second-hand experience of it will be widespread, sure.

Zetetic

  • Worrying the carcass of an old song.
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2020, 06:41:58 PM »
Yes, and I'm all ears for your plans for reconfiguring society, Z.
I can't pretend to have them. On a bad day, I wonder what Yugoslavia felt like in the late '80s.

But I don't think I can pretend, seriously that COVID-19 points the way to a brighter future. It provides a crisis that might be turned to multiple ends. I also I think I know which stories have been taken up by the bulk of the British public (and beyond) in the last few decades and what sort of policies are now best positioned to follow such a crisis.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2020, 06:47:33 PM »
On the other hand, this could remind us all what society really is.

Difficult to predict.

Dewt

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2020, 06:47:39 PM »
It's the big one.

There will be "excess mortality" all-round and second-hand experience of it will be widespread, sure.
Let's put it another way: pretending that the only aspect of this is massive loss only serves to push us towards the worst possible result. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater (but some clever way of changing it to be about old people, I dunno, can't be arsed personally)

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2020, 06:48:36 PM »
Let's put it another way: pretending that the only aspect of this is massive loss only serves to push us towards the worst possible result. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater (but some clever way of changing it to be about old people, I dunno, can't be arsed personally)

Throwing the corpse out with the embalming fluid.

Zetetic

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Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2020, 07:01:46 PM »
On the other hand, this could remind us all what society really is.

People of the same skin colour, language and alphabet rounding some other people up.

In the meantime, push on the council tax and rent freeze stuff etc. and sign up to your local community WhatApp group, I guess.

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Sourced Coronavirus Information & Links
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2020, 07:06:46 PM »

People of the same skin colour, language and alphabet rounding some other people up.

I find the opposite is conceivable. But look where hope gets you.

Quote
In the meantime, push on the council tax and rent freeze stuff etc. and sign up to your local community WhatApp group, I guess.

This is actually very sensible, yes. Labour has suspended all campaigning, inc leafletting. Councillors should, in principle, be in a good position to know how to coordinate relief efforts. Shame they're all GOING TO DIE.

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