Why aren't we in lockdown?

[chveik]

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/annual-flu-reports

What quantity of death is ok/not OK? Are the deaths above (generally found on page 50 of the annual reports) simply acceptable collateral, because the mortality rate was lower?

At some point you have to accept that we are not and have not ever been taking an approach of totalling isolating and locking down seasonal viral infections. We have generally been prioritising the economy and occasionally, like swine flu, putting out public health advice.

You may think that is wrong, and you may be right but if you are taking an absolutist approach that the millions who die of strains of winter flu annually deserve the same treatment and rigour from their peers as this time, be prepared for this, the worry, stress, lifestyle change, empty shelves, morbidity etc to be every late autumn, winter and early spring for the rest of your lives.

I bet everyone reading any amount of any currency still valuable by 2050 that you don't.

the fact that there's a vaccine (albeit far from being completely effective) for the flu makes a big difference, don't you think. add to that the fact that our healthcare services aren't equipped to deal with the flu + the coronavirus.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

The French, in my limited estimation, are far more conservative than we are, once you get past the theatrical street protests and operatic complaining. They invented the word bureaucracy, for one thing. And people forget that many of the great French writers were treated like lepers in their own country, causing many of them to sod off abroad - Voltaire to London, Flaubert to North Africa.

Still love France to bits though and would swap London for Paris any day of the week. Much better nightlife and cheap wine and cheese in abundance.

[Sherringford Hovis]

Sheer weight of policing numbers also play a part:

125,000 UK - 240-ish per 100,000 population

220,000 France - 340-ish per 100,000 population;
plus another 40,000 reserves and 15,000 volunteers

The UK doesn't really have an equivalent to the Gendarmerie (technically a part of the armed forces); the Police Nationale are closer to our tit-helmeted class-traitors.

[chveik]

The French, in my limited estimation, are far more conservative than we are, once you get past the theatrical street protests and operatic complaining. They invented the word bureaucracy, for one thing. And people forget that many of the great French writers were treated like lepers in their own country, causing many of them to sod off abroad - Voltaire to London, Flaubert to North Africa.

what? Flaubert went to Tunisia to do some research for Salammbo. and Voltaire was the historiographian (?) for the crown, so not exactly a leper. not going to bother with the rest, just your usual bigotry.

and I don't like these kind of generalisations. lot of french people have shown themselves to be selfish cunts. and the authorities have completely underestimated the risks at first.

[jobotic]

Here's why

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1240974493025210369?s=20&fbclid=IwAR0V6nNUQesdyv2mvLYAmDm_stnizo3k8BYGeriYj33q2g0ISBZ2VId2cp4

[Chollis]

Here's why

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1240974493025210369?s=20&fbclid=IwAR0V6nNUQesdyv2mvLYAmDm_stnizo3k8BYGeriYj33q2g0ISBZ2VId2cp4

Terry Jones looking surprisingly well.

[jobotic]

My council is keeping sports centres open.

[Blue Jam]

Isn't it also because if BoJo ordered pubs, restaurants etc to close they could make insurance claims, and that would lead to big insurance companies losing out, rather than small businesses being absolutely screwed, and BoJo would rather keep the big companies who donate to the Tories happy?

Here I'm really pissed off that I'm still at work. I know research is important but we're not all researching Covid-19, my work can wait. Full university lockdown next week I reckon- I hope.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

the fact that there's a vaccine (albeit far from being completely effective) for the flu makes a big difference, don't you think. add to that the fact that our healthcare services aren't equipped to deal with the flu + the coronavirus.

I'm not making a direct comparison though. What you're suggesting implies that a previous level of death was, if not acceptable then a sad part of life, yet the moralising at the minute suggests that no level of death is. The burden is being placed on people who aren't at risk to change activities they largely wouldn't need to if those at risk were identified and isolated, a by comparison more sensible less onerous move.

I am not saying you or others wrong per se. If we take death as abhorrent then maybe we should put a higher price on it. We just historically haven't...  applying that principle in reality will involve the most major change in human activity in its existence. I don't think many who are sucked into petty moralising at the minute understand what that would mean for them, let alone live up to it.

So I'm still favouring curfew/limited hours for at risk people to be outside to do their absolute necessities. Others not at risk should maintain sensible precautions but as many as possible try to keep normal life afloat the onus should be on those at risk to remove themselves or on the government to do it for them.

[chveik]

I'm not making a direct comparison though. What you're suggesting implies that a previous level of death was, if not acceptable then a sad part of life, yet the moralising at the minute suggests that no level of death is. The burden is being placed on people who aren't at risk to change activities they largely wouldn't need to if those at risk were identified and isolated.

no I'm not, just putting things into context. I don't have to moralise either, just look at what the healthcare workers are saying. and it's not that much of a burden frankly.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

no I'm not, just putting things into context. I don't have to moralise either, just look at what the healthcare workers are saying. and it's not that much of a burden frankly.

Not saying you directly but others are.

Stating the obvious that if everyone stayed at home it would assist public health isn't clever though, it is just looking at the situation as though it was in isolation from everything else. I'm just pointing out we have historically never done that, and there seems to be no reason to place as many restrictions on people who have a very small chance of dying from it.

[steveh]

Isn't it also because if BoJo ordered pubs, restaurants etc to close they could make insurance claims, and that would lead to big insurance companies losing out, rather than small businesses being absolutely screwed, and BoJo would rather keep the big companies who donate to the Tories happy?

I read that this was a myth as commercial insurance contracts typically don't distinguish between these two situations and would not cover events such as pandemics anyway. That's where a government is supposed to step in and help.

[Buelligan]

A spokesperson for, British Association of Insurers, I think it was Andy Briggs, their chairperson, said on the BBC that business owners wouldn't be able to claim under business interruption policies as most of them will not have specifically bought cover for closure due to COVID-19 on their policies because the disease was unknown at the time of purchasing the policy.  As is usual with insurance companies, I think they're looking at this, realising it could be bigger than the asbestos tsunami that bit them in the arse last century and looking for any way at all to wriggle out from under it. 

If we had a different sort of government in the UK, I'd expect it to negotiate some sort of quid pro quo with the industry to ensure that all businesses are covered.  But we don't.  I only hope that business owners who have purchased interruption cover pursue their brokers if they were not advised of the risks.

[Sony Walkman Prophecies]

what? Flaubert went to Tunisia to do some research for Salammbo. and Voltaire was the historiographian (?) for the crown, so not exactly a leper. not going to bother with the rest, just your usual bigotry.

Flaubert letters in Egypt suggest he wasn't well liked in Paris, and that he was glad to be in an environment free from bourgeois repression. Voltaire was sent to the Bastille for his satirical poems: an act unthinkable in the UK with writers like Swift and Pope. Similar points can be made about Marx's exile from Paris, or Baudelaire's poor treatment after publishing Les Fleurs du mal.

My point is that while France is outwardly liberal, it belies a stern conservatism which, I suspect, is stern precisely because it rarely exerts its excesses in public - as opposed to England which I've always felt is outwardly conservative and inwardly liberal.

These are just impressions from having spent time in the UK and France alike - appreciating both for what they bring to art and humanity. I'm not sure how bigotry comes into any of it.

[chveik]

These are just impressions from having spent time in the UK and France alike - appreciating both for what they bring to art and humanity. I'm not sure how bigotry comes into any of it.

you saying that street protests aren't genuine, which is untrue.

anyway that's neither here nor there. let's just drop it

[Kryton]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-london-closures/uk-to-order-london-pubs-restaurants-and-gyms-to-shut-evening-standard-idUKKBN2171W6?il=0

Pubs to be ordered closed soon.

UK to order London pubs, restaurants and gyms to shut

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yep so there we go, inevitable.

[Danger Man]

Even Weatherspoons???

[Danger Man]

With the agreement of the three devolved governments, he said, "we are telling – telling – cafes, pubs, bars and restaurants to close tonight, as soon as they reasonably can, and not open tomorrow". They would be allowed to sell takeaway food and drink, he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/20/london-pubs-cinemas-and-gyms-may-close-in-covid-19-clampdown

Pubs can become takeaways???

[Kryton]

Loads of idiots on my facebook talking about going out for one last binge tonight. Proper Legend Gary's.

[Sheffield Wednesday]

Let's stick it to our fascist overlords and reject lockdown

[BlodwynPig]

Flaubert letters in Egypt suggest he wasn't well liked in Paris, and that he was glad to be in an environment free from bourgeois repression. Voltaire was sent to the Bastille for his satirical poems: an act unthinkable in the UK with writers like Swift and Pope. Similar points can be made about Marx's exile from Paris, or Baudelaire's poor treatment after publishing Les Fleurs du mal.

My point is that while France is outwardly liberal, it belies a stern conservatism which, I suspect, is stern precisely because it rarely exerts its excesses in public - as opposed to England which I've always felt is outwardly conservative and inwardly liberal.

These are just impressions from having spent time in the UK and France alike - appreciating both for what they bring to art and humanity. I'm not sure how bigotry comes into any of it.

Flaubert riddles while Rome mourns

[Bazooka]

I'm not looking forward to getting back to Beijing(if I can get back in), the fuckers are shoving people in a hotel and you have to fork out nearly a grand for it, I've just paid four months rent upfront for a new apartment and I'm not even in it,correct me if I'm wrong but this virus is an annoying ugly idiot. But my girlfriend is safe over there, and my family are alright here, but this wanker is raping and pillaging my wallet.Can't we find him (its probably a bloke) and say "oi mate what are you bloody thinking, it's not on" and then beat him up dead.

[Buelligan]

Flaubert riddles while Rome mourns

I say.

[Inspector Norse]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/20/london-pubs-cinemas-and-gyms-may-close-in-covid-19-clampdown

Pubs can become takeaways???

My brother just messaged saying his local has swiftly rebranded as a shop with a live band.

[bgmnts]

Does anyone here have a year long membership with a gym? Are they refunding or still making you pay?

[weekender]

They're doing what they always do, which is to take money from me as long as I have a commitment to only go to their outdoor pool for a few days a week between April and September and can't be arsed to sort my life out, the ruthless bastards.

[Inspector Norse]

Gyms are still open here. Everything is. I haven't dared go to mine for a couple of weeks though and when I ran past the other day it looked pretty empty.

But I went shopping earlier and bumped into an old student of mine. He works at a swish fast food place nearby and said he'd never seen it so busy. Like everyone's taking the opportunity to eat out while they still can.

[ersatz99]

Most of the pubs around here emptied of their own accord a couple of weeks back anyway as soon as 24/7 sport couldn't be watched on the big screenṣ I suppose having to resort to normal conversation was too much for the many. Expect some mysterious fires to finance refurbs for when they open up again.

[Endicott]

Stating the obvious that if everyone stayed at home it would assist public health isn't clever though, it is just looking at the situation as though it was in isolation from everything else. I'm just pointing out we have historically never done that, and there seems to be no reason to place as many restrictions on people who have a very small chance of dying from it.

I think the difference is that those annual approx 20,000 winter deaths [nb]on avg from your pdf, I didn't realise it was that large![/nb] from flu occur over a period of time which doesn't overwhelm the health service. This disease being not vaccinated for as yet, and 2 or 3[nb]or whatever it is[/nb] times as infectious as flu means lock down is required to prevent the service going under. That is how I am currently understanding this, anyway.