Are you religious?

[Cliche Guevara]

I was interested in knowing to what extent religious belief is taken seriously by Verbwhores. Personally, I was baptised and brought up a Catholic but I would currently consider myself an athiest, having being sceptical of the belief in the existence of God for quite some time now. I believe that it is more likely that God doesn't exist than does. I don't take religion very seriously at all. Seeing no empirical evidence for the existence of God, the only conclusion that I can presently arrive at is that he does not exist.

I certainly have no belief in the religious God. Regarding the matter of where the Big Bang's energy originated I really don't know but that's possibly a different issue as I'd say this has more to do with forces, energy and physics rather than religion. I really don't want to get muddled up in a never-ending debate on whether or not God exists so I'll stop here.

Anyway, how about you?

Do you believe in God? Are you religious, and if so, what are your beliefs and why? Were you brought up this way or have you come to this conclusion of your own accord? Do tell.

[Rats]

Yeah, it's all just guess work and so anything man can think up is certain to be wrong. I see religion more as a way of life really, I remember gazzy saying that faith is a form of madness and though it sounds controversial, it's fundamentally true, but that extends to faith in science too, understanding the world as we see it and making assumptions based on that knowledge is all well and good but who's to say that reality as we experience it and the physics that apply to our universe mean anything in the great scheme of things. I believe that it isn't worth thinking about, though it's inherent in our nature to do so, either through us being so evolved, or not evolved enough. I'm more interested in wether morality is learned or instinctive if anyone knows anything about that.

[slim]

Oooh, this'll be a fun thread to read in about 2 pages. Religion's usually a guarantee of a scrap...

Personally, I voted no. I've consdered all the options I've been fortunate enough to be educated about and have decided that I don't believe in folowing a doctrine or an all powerful God figure for now. I'm open to changing my mind though.


Edit: Poor grammar.

[Rats]

who the fuck are you? Want a scrap do ya? If some fat ambient pervert was dribbling over MY quim at every given oppertunity, I'd be fucking raving. If you're happy drowning in a sea of cosey innuendo then go ahead but I think you've something more to say, go on, suprise the coddled twat.

edit: sorry, I thought you had your tits out, carry on.

[VorpalSword]

Well, I did believe in God. Then I started going to Christian Union meetings at school, and I realised how insane believing in God is. I mean an 11 year old boy really wanted his pet dog to get through an operation, so the youth leader told him to fast for a week to make sure the prayer got to God. I walked out at that point, I couldn't take the crazy anymore.

So, no, nope, not religious.

[imitationleather]

Blimey, 94% aren't religious. I suppose that's because we're all cynical, clued-up information superhighway punks from the future. I wonder what the percentages would be (for the same age range as the users on this site) for the wider population.

[JesusAndYourBush]

I'm not religious.  Religion, to put it bluntly, is a load of old bollox.

Religion was invented by educated men as a way of controlling the uneducated masses.  Maybe hundreds of years ago when many people were less educated they needed to be controlled for their own good.  Most of us have evolved since then and religion needs to evolve too.

I'll get the popcorn and return to this thread when it's grown a few pages.

[Banana Woofwoof]

I was raised a Catholic and educated at a convent school, which has the effect of making you cynical.  We read the bible a lot, and the more you read, the less you believe.  Up until I was about 12 I did use the Bible for comfort.  I had a little red Gidian bible (who are the Gidians?) and in the first pages it said, "Read scripture at the same time every day", so I did.  The older I got, the more inaccuracies I noticed and the more I thought about it.

Religion now seems ridiculous to me.  I can respect and understand faith, but I can't communicate properly with very religious people.  I am an atheist, and people say, "Atheism is a kind of religion", but it isn't, it isn't based on doctrine, doctrine written by humans with selfish human interests at core- that is, keeping people subservient and passing power over to some vague entity (well, they tell the people that, the power rests in the elite at the top, who cannot be challenged or questioned as they have divinity on their side)- and that's what staggers about me about religion.  Scriptures and holy books written by men and riddled with holes, still dictates the life of many people thousands of years later.  Much of it is no longer relevant and it frightens me that a vast proportion of this world lead their lives according to it.  It's a terrifying form of control.

The idea of god to me is like having an imaginary friend.  The idea of god to me seems like the most primitive form of law, a big stick over your head to keep you in check for the rest of your days. "Morality as vampirism", as Uncle Nietzsche says.  Religion has caused so many problems in this world and continues to do so, and I wonder what the world would be like had it never existed at all.  People back up bigotry and hatred with scripture and I wonder how they would continue to justify themselves without that crutch to lean upon.  

I think the world is a beautiful and mysterious place and that if humans got their act together and realised that *we* have the power to control and change our own lives and this world, things could be better.  The only thing I believe in is the power inside of us all, and in love, compassion and truth.  The world lacks in all three, and to be honest, I'd say religion had a lot to do with that.  People are held in slavery because of it.  And in most cases it absolutely forbids asking questions, which is scary to me, as I think we;re here to ask questions.  

I'm not at all agnostic- in this respect, I am narrowminded.  I simply don't believe in god, gods or any higher power.  I do enjoy talking to those who have faith.  The religious people I know are Christians, Muslims and polytheists, and I don't know any fanatics, just a clutch of people who say, "I love my god", and in a way, I wish I could open my heart like that to something so made of fog.  I wonder how life would be different without the waking up in the middle of the night unable to breathe because you know death is coming and that is all, or trying to understand what motivates man to be so cruel.  For religious people, there's always the afterlife and "god's will".   Can't do it, though.

[Ghost of Troubled Joe]

Where's the "I don't rightly know" option? I don't consider myself part of any one denomination or faith, but I'm not really interested in science, and have always had a fascination with spirituality. I suppose organised religion is something I'm personally against (fundamentalism etc.) but other people seem to find something in it. If you define having a religious belief as a belief in there being something other than human at work in the world, then I would agree with that- I have a tendency to believe that there probably is a higher power (call it a god or whatever you will), and life beyond an earthly existence. I went to church when I was young but never really got into it, I failed to see how turning up at a really boring place and singing crap songs was somehow a spiritual experience, and I haven't been since I was about 12. More people should be encouraged to read all the holy books though, I've read a good deal of them and a lot of them are very interesting indeed- just look at Revelations, that's just fucking insane, it reads like William Burroughs in his Soft Machine period, except without the explicit homosexuality and rampant drug abuse.

[Munday's Chylde]

I mean an 11 year old boy really wanted his pet dog to get through an operation, so the youth leader told him to fast for a week to make sure the prayer got to God.

youth leader: "if you want your dog to survive you must fast for a week to make sure the prayers get to god."

the 11 year old boy: "...actually now I think about it he is rather old..."

[Divnee Gan]

Blimey, 94% aren't religious.

Aah. You spoiled it for me, before I'd decided whether I was religious or not.

[Almost Yearly]

It's a shame all those worthy dedicated humans throughout history have wasted their lives forever meditating and ritually practising and searching inside and out for truth, enlightenment and a common moral framework for human discourse. They only needed to log onto a comedy-based bulletin board and ask a cocksure student who can barely get to the corner shop when it's open and never really made it past the slow bits in that book on buddhism which he only got out of the uni library to impress the girl with the interesting tattoo, and he could have saved them all the bother by explaining that religion is a load of mad old bollocks which always starts wars and that.


Personally, I don't even understand the question.

[Banana Woofwoof]

Cocksure students are allowed opinions too!

[Almost Yearly]

Well that's certainly turned my belief system on its head :-)

[Banana Woofwoof]

Well that's certainly turned my belief system on its head :-)

Shush, you. :-p I'll become a student just to annoy you!

Oh, I don't know.  There must be something more but I'm not sure it's to be found in a higher power.  I think the world is pretty amazing anyway and that we're all in the dark, and that it's human's job to ask questions.  But I think religion and doctrine restricts that process rather than encourages it.  Faith is something a little different, I reckon.

[Divnee Gan]

I'm not sure how sure I am of my cock.

sorry

[kenneth trousers]

Well that's certainly turned my belief system on its head :-)

Shush, you. :-p I'll become a student just to annoy you!

Oh, I don't know.  There must be something more but I'm not sure it's to be found in a higher power.  I think the world is pretty amazing anyway and that we're all in the dark, and that it's human's job to ask questions.  But I think religion and doctrine restricts that process rather than encourages it.  Faith is something a little different, I reckon.

I think this quote from Dawkins sums up faith rather nicely.

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
-- Richard Dawkins

[gazzyk1ns]

Heh, I like that quote.

[untitled_london]

i was born and raised a catholic.

i think i may have mentioned mid-rant in the pope-ticker thread that i'd seen and heard enough about abuses in the catholic church that left me thinking that organised religion was basically a crock of shit.

i don't have a chip on my shoulder, but it does rile me to see the continued power and influence that the various churches still manage to maintain in spite of the advances the developed parts of the world have managed to make.

having read a little philosophy, i tend to agree with pascal. its a cowardly approach, but, it offers the room to accept that life isn't simply a blip in the cosmos. as such, i tend to live as an agnostic. i.e., i dont know, and i dont honestly believe anyone else does either, and therefore i'll not accept faith as a reason to believe.

[Divnee Gan]

seconded, faith is for people afraid of snuffing their rather naff little candle.

[Almost Yearly]

With regard to ^ that Dawkins quote - no measurable evidence is available as to whether or not one of my local buses will turn up, since many moons ago the service was taken over by Heisenberg Transport Co. Nevertheless, those wishing at some point to make it into town have little choice but to jolly well stand at the bus stop in good faith. Dawkins, while engaging, charming and persuasive, will never make it to Penzance. Ah, I think I see his point now.

[Bogey]

But if there'd never been religion in the first place, when Mr. Heisenberg & friends made their odd discoveries, they would just have gone, "Ooh, this is all a bit weird isn't it?".
They wouldn't have gone, "Well, Neils, this is a turn up for the books, from this evidence I don't think I'd be far wrong in conjecturing an intelligence not of this world, some sort of a "creator" if you will".

"Quantum Physics is weird and nobody really understands it, therefore maybe there is a God" is a line of reasoning I fail to understand.

"Quantum Physics is weird and nobody really understands it therefore maybe unaided human intelligence will never grasp the secrets of the cosmos" seems reasonable. (not that we should, or will ever give up, of course).

Surely it just fulfills a basic human need to feel safe.

[Cliche Guevara]

I'm more interested in wether morality is learned or instinctive if anyone knows anything about that.

I would be of the belief that it is learned. Wouldn't that be why people in different cultures have very different morals (e.g. some things we would view as wrong or strange are advocated by others) and why children often get up to no good? They haven't yet learned how to "behave properly". If it was instinctive surely there'd be a lot less crime and trouble in the world and our view of what is considered innapropriate would not have changed so drastically over recent decades and centuries?

Even without a God in their life, some will say that the promotion of the contentment of mankind is what guides them in forming a set of morals, and they may  therefore claim that because our instincts encourage us to survive morality is also instinctive as it helps us live together, co-operate and make progress in our survival.

However, what about, for example:

i) Advancing the human race by eliminating all weakness and trying to maximise the potential of human beings? This could involve some form of eugenics or something along the lines of what is seen in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.

ii) Individual fulfillment - a hedonistic free-for-all.

We're all very used to the idea that we should care for everyone and be nice because our morals tell us so, but there's nothing that tells me that this idea is what we should advocate rather than the other examples I have given. These other possibilities would also aid our survival and could possibly be more fulfilling so I don't really see how morality could be instinctive.  It is possible that our current view of what is acceptable is holding us back as a species. The other ways of living may provide us with a more efficient and enjoyable survival. It is quite likely that they would so wouldn't that suggest that morality is not instinctive as it possibly doesn't aid our survival as efficiently as other ways of living. To use an example, people claim that it benefits everyone in general to have morals, yet allowing a braind-dead patient who cannot offer anything at all to anyone else to end their life is seen as wrong by some. It is not beneficial to anyone really to keep this person alive. In reality they are a drain. So sometimes it just doesn't help to be moralistic. Sometimes it prevents our progress.

I would tend to agree with JesusAndYourBush. Religion, and morality with it, are artificial, man-made creations to aid social control so certain humans can wield power over other humans and benefit as a consequence.

Well that's certainly turned my belief system on its head :-)

Shush, you. :-p I'll become a student just to annoy you!

Oh, I don't know.  There must be something more but I'm not sure it's to be found in a higher power.  I think the world is pretty amazing anyway and that we're all in the dark, and that it's human's job to ask questions.  But I think religion and doctrine restricts that process rather than encourages it.  Faith is something a little different, I reckon.

I think this quote from Dawkins some up faith rather nicely.

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
-- Richard Dawkins

When seriously tackled on the issue of whether God exists a believer's counter-argument to the "outrageous" idea that there is no proof of the existence of a god, and therefore he may not exist at all, is that they have "faith". If I decided to be contrary and settle for the belief that I simply have faith in the idea that a God doesn't exist and use that as an argument we wouldn't make much progress at all. If this was put forward in any debate - that the reason your viewpoint was superior was because you simply had faith in it - you would rightly be laughed at. So why do so many get away with it? It's as if the existence of God should not be questioned - much like the rule of the Fuhrer or the reign of a king. Everything must be questioned.

Surely those with intelligence would scrutinise a belief and challenge it themselves so it stands up to legitimate attack before adopting it as their own. I would be amazed if even a man as intelligent as the Pope was one hundred per cent convinced that a god existed and was not worried in the slightest on his death-bed that it was the end altogether. Dare I say it that if he had no doubts whatsoever, he was fooling himself.

The existence of a god is so blindly and deeply ingrained in our society it's shocking. The Irish Constitution is based on and derived from both the people of Ireland and God, yet people don't see a fundamental problem with it strongly promoting a Christian doctrine in a secular, multi-cultural world. I see something very Orwellian, if not unnatural, about people routinely responding like sheep at a service every Sunday. It doesn't seem insane (which is the very word for it) though because it has become routine - the norm. I find it equally absurd that the existence of God is taken for granted by so many. It is as if the "deviant" view of the athiest is the strange one or as if there is something "wrong" with not believing in God. A personal example - As I went to a Catholic all-boys school I had to go to Mass services in the school quite often on the holy days or whatever. At a school Mass, as an athiest, I found it extremely intimidating to stay seated rather than recieve Communion as there seemed to be some form of stigma attached to holding a non-belief.

In many cases the onus is on the athiest to prove that a god does not exist, yet surely it should be the other way about. I would never be so arrogant to claim the existence of something (or the non-existence of something with certainty for that matter either) and expect others to take my viewpoint seriously by justifying its existence with the claim that I possessed faith. I'd be a laughing-stock. People need solid evidence, not faith.

[Mister Six]

Everything must be questioned.

Must it?

[Bogey]

I would be of the belief that it is learned. Wouldn't that be why people in different cultures have very different morals (e.g. some things we would view as wrong or strange are advocated by others) and why children often get up to no good? They haven't yet learned how to "behave properly". If it was instinctive surely there'd be a lot less crime and trouble in the world and our view of what is considered innapropriate would not have changed so drastically over recent decades and centuries?

World cultures aren't as different as some anthropologists would have you believe though, and I for one don't buy this "culture as an indepenent force that shapes us" thing, because what I've read puts forward strong arguments against it - I'm sure if I read other things by other people I might come to a different conclusion.
Anyway here is a list of human universals, so any anthropologist who tells you about a remote pacific island culture which has no word for "me", f'rinstance, is likely talking bollocks.

[Bogey]

These other possibilities would also aid our survival and could possibly be more fulfilling so I don't really see how morality could be instinctive.

By "our" survival do you mean the whole species? Because evolution doesn't work like that, it works on the level of the individual (or the gene, in fact), group living is merely a consequence. So I understand.

[Cliche Guevara]

In today's scientific world where most things can be explained I don't think anyone claiming to be the son of God would get very far. Hundreds of years ago, when scientific development wasn't really up to current scratch, people were clearly susceptible to falling for any old scam. So it turns out they probably did and the scam they fell for has been passed on over time and has become, for many, a truth.

If religion wasn't such the tradition it is I'm sure intelligence and scientific analysis would have destroyed it long ago as soon as they posed more likely alternatives backed up by evidence and which stood up to scrutiny.

Everything must be questioned.

Must it?

For me, yes. I wouldn't be happy living an unquestioning life worshipping a false idol. The truth is the only thing with any real value. I'd rather make an attempt at least to pursue it. Otherwise I'd feel I was compromising myself.

[Tina]

me im not religious. but i dont mind people who are. im sure it can be emotionally soothing to believe something nice even if its not provable. its certainly better than going through life miserable and pessimistic.

[Cliche Guevara]

These other possibilities would also aid our survival and could possibly be more fulfilling so I don't really see how morality could be instinctive.

By "our" survival do you mean the whole species? Because evolution doesn't work like that, it works on the level of the individual (or the gene, in fact), group living is merely a consequence. So I understand.

I was possibly using "our" to mean the species.

Morality is a collective control which certainly doesn't help the individual. It holds him/her back, in fact.

So either way it doesn't seem rational to believe that morality is an instinct.

[Bogey]

Everything must be questioned.

Must it?

For me, yes. I wouldn't be happy living an unquestioning life worshipping a false idol. The truth is the only thing with any real value. I'd rather make an attempt at least to pursue it. Otherwise I'd feel I was compromising myself.

I think Mister Six was making a funny there. I know my brain's scrambled by that crazy paradox!