Are we allowed to be angry at China about COVID-19?

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Stop eating other creatures.

I've been saying this for years to the fleas that caused the Black Death.

[wooders1978]

Poached or sautéed, it's still a problem.  Stop eating other creatures.

You vegetarian or summat?

[Dewt]

As I understand it, a lot of this kind of meat consumption is about luxury dining or believed health benefits, it's not about survival and necessary protein intake.

I'm not demanding it.  I'm just saying, it seems to me that a lot of disease, death and suffering could be avoided all round if people stopped killing and eating other creatures.  People need to acknowledge that to themselves even if they don't decide to give up smoking.

Just to be clear, I agree with you that we'd be better off not eating meat (I grew up on the kind of farm that produces the happy organic pork that supermarkets sell and can attest to the waste, cruelty and unpleasantness at that part of the production chain) and I strive (and fail) to stop eating meat. But the way the message is delivered has to be more thoughtful than it's usually delivered. There are huge implications to "just don't eat meat".

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

The way exotic animal parts are transported is extremely dangerous and likely to cause infections by zoonotic diseases. 

It is a predictable outcome of unhygienic practices and as the other poster said people here woudn't stand for some of the barbaric practices that take place in these Wet Markets if they where taking place here in the UK, so why should we not call them out in other parts of the world. 

I've read anecdotal reports about the absolutely appallingly cruel practices at some of these markets, such as cutting off a limb of live animals to customer orders in the market, and keeping the animal alive for the next customer because of the preference for meat from a live animal. Safe handling practices exist to prevent disease transmission.  China has previously called any critique cultural imperialism etc.

Also, it's right to call out backwards traditional Chinese "medicine" beliefs about the powers of certain foods, which have encouraged hazardous habits and a lot of suffering for animals.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

The way exotic animal parts are transported is extremely dangerous and likely to cause infections by zoonotic diseases. 

It is a predictable outcome of unhygienic practices and as the other poster said people here woudn't stand for some of the barbaric practices that take place in these Wet Markets if they where taking place here in the UK, so why should we not call them out in other parts of the world. 

I've read anecdotal reports about the absolutely appallingly cruel practices at some of these markets, such as cutting off a limb of live animals to customer orders in the market, and keeping the animal alive for the next customer because of the preference for meat from a live animal. Safe handling practices exist to prevent disease transmission.  China has previously called any critique cultural imperialism etc.

Also, it's right to call out backwards traditional Chinese "medicine" beliefs about the powers of certain foods, which have encouraged hazardous habits and a lot of suffering for animals.

Thankfully cruelty toward animals and backward medical beliefs do not exist in the West. We are exceptional!

[Dewt]

The way exotic animal parts are transported is extremely dangerous and likely to cause infections by zoonotic diseases. 

It is a predictable outcome of unhygienic practices and as the other poster said people here woudn't stand for some of the barbaric practices that take place in these Wet Markets if they where taking place here in the UK, so why should we not call them out in other parts of the world. 

I've read anecdotal reports about the absolutely appallingly cruel practices at some of these markets, such as cutting off a limb of live animals to customer orders in the market, and keeping the animal alive for the next customer because of the preference for meat from a live animal. Safe handling practices exist to prevent disease transmission.  China has previously called any critique cultural imperialism etc.

Also, it's right to call out backwards traditional Chinese "medicine" beliefs about the powers of certain foods, which have encouraged hazardous habits and a lot of suffering for animals.

I trust that you spend the same amount energy complaining about Bernard Matthews and KFC's dedicated suppliers you FUCKING DULL RACIST.

[massive bereavement]

What ultimately can the world do, kill all bats everywhere?

I was under the impression that it's the bats in Asia (for Cornona) and Africa (for Ebola) that are the bad bats and everywhere else has good bats because they only bother us with Rabies, but a quick google around appears to suggest that scientists have been looking for Corona in bats in other parts of the world post SARS-1 and the potential for new outbreaks. This is from 2013.... "In summary, we found a novel alphacoronavirus in bats from Brazil and a novel betacoronavirus in a bat from Mexico. Both viruses were detected in bats with known or potential contact with humans."

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

I was under the impression that it's the bats in Asia (for Cornona) and Africa (for Ebola) that are the bad bats and everywhere else has good bats because they only bother us with Rabies, but a quick google around appears to suggest that scientists have been looking for Corona in bats in other parts of the world post SARS-1 and the potential for new outbreaks. This is from 2013.... "In summary, we found a novel alphacoronavirus in bats from Brazil and a novel betacoronavirus in a bat from Mexico. Both viruses were detected in bats with known or potential contact with humans."

Moreover, if you killed all the bats I presume it would dramatically increase mosquito populations, which cause far more harm than bats or Covid-19.

There's no way to socially engineer our way out of having potential pandemics. That's why in a sane world the richest countries on earth would have functioning medical systems ready to respond to outbreaks. Imagine if one fifth of the the U.S. Pentagon's yearly budget was spent on public health infrastructure?

[weekender]

Suggestion: Lets stop fucking bat corpses.

[El Unicornio, mang]

Thankfully cruelty toward animals and backward medical beliefs do not exist in the West.

there are more strict laws against it though, and certain levels of animal welfare which are generally adhered to. If a market in the UK or USA was burning animals alive to make the meat more tender, or skinning animals alive and leaving them out on display, writhing in pain, they'd be shut down.

Also, the "we do bad stuff too" isn't a good reason not to call out others. We should all be doing better really.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

there are more strict laws against it though, and certain levels of animal welfare which are generally adhered to. If a market in the UK or USA was burning animals alive to make the meat more tender, or skinning animals alive and leaving them out on display, writhing in pain, they'd be shut down.

Also, the "we do bad stuff too" isn't a good reason not to call out others. We should all be doing better really.

Well, first of all, a lot of that sounds like the kind of dubiously sourced, Orientalist sensationalism that shows up as "news" here in the West. But second of all, barbaric stuff happens like all the time in industrialized factory farms (dragging sick animals around by their limbs, etc.). The primary regulatory response that I can think of in the U.S. is to to pass laws making it a felony for activists to secretly film animal abuse.

I imagine animal cruelty is already formally illegal in China. That doesn't mean it's enforced there anymore than it is in the West.

"We do bad stuff too" is a very good response to racist Western exceptionalism.

[El Unicornio, mang]

I imagine animal cruelty is already formally illegal in China. That doesn't mean it's enforced there anymore than it is in the West.

The last time I checked, and apologies if this has changed recently, but China is the only industrialised nation with no major laws against animal cruelty.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

Thankfully cruelty toward animals and backward medical beliefs do not exist in the West. We are exceptional!

whataboutism.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

I trust that you spend the same amount energy complaining about Bernard Matthews and KFC's dedicated suppliers you FUCKING DULL RACIST.

Give it a rest you tiresome cunt.  No one is suggesting animal cruelty isn't a problem across the world. 

[Gregory Torso]

I imagine animal cruelty is already formally illegal in China.

Unfortunately not. However, most Chinese people I met in 13 years of living there would react with the same disgust and upset at some of the practices being mentioned here (by people that I assume have never actually visited a Chinese wet market). For example, yes, dog meat is eaten, but there are still protestors who go out and stop trucks carrying dogs and cats to the market.

[Gregory Torso]

I blame my girlfriend daily (she is a Chinese), on behalf of the Peoples Republic she apologies, and will only eat bat fajitas on April Fools Day.

Personally, I'll not be satisfied until every single Chinese or Chinese looking person has made an apology TikTok video to the rest of the world.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

whataboutism.

"Whataboutism" is not a particularly convincing rebuttal when the original point involves a harmful ethnic stereotype.

[bgmnts]

Also, the "we do bad stuff too" isn't a good reason not to call out others. We should all be doing better really.

Well, its rank hypocrisy.

People in glass houses SHOULD throw stones? Dunno

[massive bereavement]

Moreover, if you killed all the bats I presume it would dramatically increase mosquito populations, which cause far more harm than bats or Covid-19.

There's no way to socially engineer our way out of having potential pandemics. That's why in a sane world the richest countries on earth would have functioning medical systems ready to respond to outbreaks. Imagine if one fifth of the the U.S. Pentagon's yearly budget was spent on public health infrastructure?

Yeah, I wouldn't want to wipe out the bats.
That another outbreak could potentially emerge from South or Central America shows that it's not necessarily always going to be an Asian/Middle East problem at source. Was watching somebody the other day who mentioned the ancient viruses frozen in ice that could be unleashed by global warming. Whose fault will that be?

[bgmnts]

Is it just Chinese Chinese we should hate? Do Hong Kong and Macau count? My aunt in law's family is from Macau and she's alright. But is she proper?

[idunnosomename]

went to rick stein's once and the pangolin was swimming in butter

[El Unicornio, mang]

Unfortunately not. However, most Chinese people I met in 13 years of living there would react with the same disgust and upset at some of the practices being mentioned here (by people that I assume have never actually visited a Chinese wet market). For example, yes, dog meat is eaten, but there are still protestors who go out and stop trucks carrying dogs and cats to the market.

I lived in the US for 15 years and most people I met (because I moved in generally more left leaning liberal circles) thought that their gun laws were atrocious, the death penalty was bad, abortion should be legal, and that health care should be a right, but of course that's not the full picture of America. I've never visited a Chinese wet market, I've also never been to a Trump rally but I've seen enough footage of them to not be a fan.

[Buelligan]

went to rick stein's once and the pangolin was swimming in butter

I didn't even know they could swim.

[Pearly-Dewdrops Drops]

Whose fault will that be?

The fucking mammoths.

[Buelligan]

Moth fuckers more like.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

okay so sometimes whataboutism is relevant, like if someone is banging on and on about a certain ethnic group doing Bad Thing A and behaving like other ethnic groups don't also engage in Bad Thing A. Buuuut sometimes Group 1 will do Bad Thing A for different reasons than Group 2 and the reasons are worth talking about because you may need different policies/solutions to tackle them.

HOWEVER in the context of the current pandemic and indeed any future pandemics, the cultural practices that led to this outbreak are largely irrelevant. Viruses can come from anywhere and we don't really have drugs to treat them. I haven't done the research but I don't think scientists even know what role viruses serve in the wider ecosystem, if any. They're not even technically alive. We're supposed to be ready to deal with pandemics. We're supposed to have decent healthcare facilities and enough doctors and beds to provide supportive treatment for the people who need it. We're supposed to have labour laws that mean people won't lose their jobs if they call in sick instead of dragging themselves to work and spreading the germs. That's what we should focus on.

And we should be wary of governments and political groups (not saying the OP was doing this) who insist on calling it "the Chinese virus" or focusing on terrible Chinese food traditions, pretending away the incompetence and shortcomings of our own governments and healthcare/social welfare services.  Because when this is over there will be plenty of folks who want to squash any dangerous notions of commie socialism in the greater population. "Oh it's China's fault, that's what happens when you have open borders, them yellow reds with their DISEASE". Watch for it.

[idunnosomename]

I didn't even know they could swim.

it was doing the backstroke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Urinal Cake]

But what's the point? To prevent the start to another pandemic- yes. China is finally taking steps to get rid of wet markets etc and I think they'll take better steps to stop the outbreak compared to most other nations next time. But really a lot of it seems misdirected anger at people and government of your own nation.

South Korea, then followed by China seem so far to have handled this pandemic better than anybody else.   

[idunnosomename]

have they tried pointing a hairdryer at the markets?

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

It's nature that we should be angry with. Fortunately, we're doing a splendid job of getting rid of it.